Prosumer's once closed the gap on DSLRs; now...

Prosumer's once closed the gap on DSLRs w/ cameras like the Minolta A2, Sony 828 and OLY 8080. They had great features and really good lenses.The 2/3" chips were pushed hard to get 8mp on them so noise was the one flaw.

The only thing out since this time of note to me is the Sony R1--great lens and good images. However, In my mind too big--might as well have a DSLR. How good would it have been with a 2/3" live preview CMOS chip? I don't know but it would have been a much better size.

Are there any 2/3" chip cameras still made? I think w/ a design update such as how Fuji has addressed noise on smaller chips that new prosumers could close the gap on DSLRs again. Heck, the Minolta A2 I had so many great features that are presently just getting into DSLRs (eye start, AS in body...).

My guess is that a ton of DSLRS will end up sitting in a closet while a smaller camera actually gets used by most consumers. This is what happened in the last major technology pushes from DSLRs (ie the auto exposure and then the autofocus revolutions). Everyone thought they needed a DSLR but after a few trips of packing multiple lenses, flash etc. most consumers leave the "big" camera for the "small camera".

I personally wish there would be a new generation of really nice prosumers. I'm not talking about $300 cameras--I mean state of the art consumer cameras.

Please bring on 2/3" chipped cameras with usable photos of 800 iso!

mark moe said:

Prosumer's once closed the gap on DSLRs w/ cameras like the Minolta
A2, Sony 828 and OLY 8080. They had great features and really good
lenses.The 2/3" chips were pushed hard to get 8mp on them so noise
was the one flaw.

Click to expand...

A2 was grat and I don't know why it was discontinued, instead of upgraded.

mark moe said:

The only thing out since this time of note to me is the Sony
R1--great lens and good images. However, In my mind too big--might
as well have a DSLR. How good would it have been with a 2/3" live
preview CMOS chip? I don't know but it would have been a much
better size.

Are there any 2/3" chip cameras still made? I think w/ a design
update such as how Fuji has addressed noise on smaller chips that
new prosumers could close the gap on DSLRs again. Heck, the Minolta
A2 I had so many great features that are presently just getting
into DSLRs (eye start, AS in body...).

My guess is that a ton of DSLRS will end up sitting in a closet
while a smaller camera actually gets used by most consumers. This
is what happened in the last major technology pushes from DSLRs (ie
the auto exposure and then the autofocus revolutions). Everyone
thought they needed a DSLR but after a few trips of packing
multiple lenses, flash etc. most consumers leave the "big" camera
for the "small camera".

Click to expand...

The A100 is nor so bigger or heavier than R1 or A2, but you can fit the lenses you need for specific purpose (look at Tamron 18-250, if you want a single zoom).

What A100 is missing is a good EVF and Sony should not have discontinued A2 but substituted by a A100E.

mark moe said:

I personally wish there would be a new generation of really nice
prosumers. I'm not talking about $300 cameras--I mean state of the
art consumer cameras.

Please bring on 2/3" chipped cameras with usable photos of 800 iso!

Click to expand...

--
GiorgioPM

You have it exactly right - while (D)SLR's are what the manufacturer's push, and what a goodly number of consumers end up purchasing...in reality they are being oversold.

I have seen it from both the sales side of the counter and in my personal friends around me, (now) here on the buyer's side - they buy an SLR but, in say 2 years...they have grown tired of both the weight and the investments in cost necessary to "outfit" their "rig" to get the photos they want.

And they end up going back to a nicely featured automatic camera, either compact for the family snapshooter or a "prosumer" for the photo "fan".

I witnessed this last year - an older gentleman I knew with a long-time photography habit (I just buried him this past Thursday ) went from a Olympus E-10 4 years ago, to the Panasonic FZ20 2 years ago, to the Nikon D70 about 1 year ago...and then back to the Panasonic.

Although he really wanted to like the Nikon, it simply was "too much". Too heavy, too complex, too much of a commitment to use in everyday life. He felt the Panasonic got better shots 90% of the time with less hassle - yes, the Nikon could take better photos, but only if you were "on top" of camera during the shot, adjusting metering, correct flash modes, etc. The Panasonic, he said, just "got the photo" the way he imagined it when he pushed the shutter release.

We need a compact camera with instant AF (like DSLR's) and good low-light performance.

Those are the main reasons I switched to a DSLR. Other than those I was very happy with my Canon G3 (I know it isn't tiny but still not as big as a DSLR).

-Darryl

that the camera makers push one and neglect another, leaving us a fewer choice.

I'm very happy with my C8080 and I used to carry film SLR with lenses in a big bag for a long time, and had always wished a camera just like C8080.

It's not a matter of choosing one of two. We need both types in different purposes.

I think highend prosumer cameras will eventually make a come back in a little different shapes and sizes.
--
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B&H------------1996(reviews)----9.43(6 month rating)
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http://sitekreator.com/allgoo19

... but this type of high quality camera apparently kills profits. They seduced us with the D7(H)(i)A1/2 lens only to make us want and buy lots of expensive glass for DSLRs...

--
http://www.pbase.com/maurus_e/

There is no reason a high end Prosumer should focus slower than a DSLR--anyone w/ kids NEEDS fast focusing.Yet the A2 still had wireless flash, real control dials, programable settings and a flew focus that let you move the focus spot around in the image to your liking.

I don't like size comarisons of prosumers w/ DSLR bodies. W/ a DSLR too small of a body will upset balance w/ larger/heavier lenses.

A DSLR w/ lens that covers the Minolta A2's (example prosumer camera) of a 28-200 2.8-3.5 APO G lens is not going to be an all in one lens. The 2/3" sensor was a good comprimise for lens construction. And in an all in one the lens can be set much closer to the sensor. The all in one DSLR lenses (18-200 for example) have more distortion and are a lot slower than the example camera's lens.

Maybe Fuji will step up...they have less to lose in lens sales and they seem to have a good handle on noise. But they will need AS in the lens or body to make many of us happy.

no text

Yes, but not "future" profit.

THAT'S why these manufacturers wish to push (D)SLR's hard - future lens and accessory sales. For all we know they might even be pricing DSLR's in the same guise as "razor and razor blades" - give the body away and make bit $$$ on decent lens, flash and accessory sales.

For me, the DSLR was the only way I could get a large sensor with the associated low noise at high ISO. 6 or 8 Mpixels (but GOOD QUALITY Mpx) was enough data for my printing output requirements.

The latter meant having quality Zoom lenses to make best use of those 6 MPx and I chose Canon lenses and therefore a Canon DSLR.

I am quite unimpressed with the rather dim and unfocusworthy view in a less than full frame optical viewfinder with a small aperture lens on it. I would quite happily forget the mirror and associated mechanics for a high quality zoomable EVF which will be lighter smaller etc., but, as you say, the non DSLR does seem to be not quite there.

An interchangeable lens EVF would do me but it would need at least an APS sized sensor so the lens focal length required and its size would be the biggest thing on the camera and the end product hardly pocketable although inherently less mechanical.

The latest Sigma DP1 MIGHT just be a forerunner but, by the time it had interchangeable lenses, it would almost be the same burden to lug around as the current DSLRs. I hope the unnecessary reflex mirror and weight, size and mechanical complexity vanishes in this decade.

Cheers, Tony.

mark moe said:

mark moe said:

My guess is that a ton of DSLRS will end up sitting in a closet

Click to expand...

while a smaller camera actually gets used by most consumers. This
is what happened in the last major technology pushes from DSLRs (ie
the auto exposure and then the autofocus revolutions). Everyone
thought they needed a DSLR but after a few trips of packing
multiple lenses, flash etc. most consumers leave the "big" camera
for the "small camera".

Click to expand...

I don't know what you are talking about with "everyone" here. I see tons of SLRs in use all the time. There are times when I don't need the quality and will care a P&S, but 99% of the time I carry a DSLR, 3 lenses, flash, and monopod.

Couldn't agree more : after 20 years of Nikon SLR (1600 g with only 2 lenses) I own an A2, and although I would like less noise at high iso, I still think it's an unrivalled package.(654 g !).

Let's wait. As you said, Fuji is probably able to release a "prosumer" wich would fit our needs (lightness, AS, 28-200 or more, good iso performance).

The problem will be the EVF. I would not buy a camera with a EVF with less resolution than the A2's one. Mmmm...
Cheers
André

dinoSnake said:

You have it exactly right - while (D)SLR's are what the
manufacturer's push, and what a goodly number of consumers end up
purchasing...in reality they are being oversold.

I have seen it from both the sales side of the counter and in my
personal friends around me, (now) here on the buyer's side - they
buy an SLR but, in say 2 years...they have grown tired of both the
weight and the investments in cost necessary to "outfit" their
"rig" to get the photos they want.

And they end up going back to a nicely featured automatic camera,
either compact for the family snapshooter or a "prosumer" for the
photo "fan".

Click to expand...

Take good photos without struggle with complicate rules to imagine what the camera will really take.
With a good EVF you see what you take (both color and exposure).

May be there are many that feel satisfaction to demonstrate to be very skilled in guessing what the camera will take.
I undestand and respect their fun.
But I like to capture the best images as possible, nothing else.
An EVF helps a lot to do it.

The fact of have this in a DSLR would be better because:

A2 had good range (28-200mm), R1 better lenses quality, but limited to 120mm tele, Panasonic FZ20 36 - 432 mm (insufficient wide angle).

With an EVIL everyone can put the zoom that needs.

A camera like A100 with EVF would be perfect for prosumers: light, compact, ergonomic, in body IS (just could be better with Canon IQ, but ... could be sufficient for Prosumers).

By the way, if Sony did that, could not only replace A2 and R1, but alsocompete with all the other Prosumers (Samsung, Panasonic, etc.).
Wake up Sony.

dinoSnake said:

I witnessed this last year - an older gentleman I knew with a
long-time photography habit (I just buried him this past Thursday
) went from a Olympus E-10 4 years ago, to the Panasonic FZ20 2
years ago, to the Nikon D70 about 1 year ago...and then back to the

Although he really wanted to like the Nikon, it simply was "too
much". Too heavy, too complex, too much of a commitment to use in
everyday life. He felt the Panasonic got better shots 90% of the
time with less hassle - yes, the Nikon could take better photos,
but only if you were "on top" of camera during the shot, adjusting
metering, correct flash modes, etc. The Panasonic, he said, just
"got the photo" the way he imagined it when he pushed the shutter
release.

Click to expand...

Right, I did something like that with my "poor" Minolta DiMAGE 7hi (all on the tripod, ouch, because of the noise over 100ISO).

I am really waiting for an EVIL user friendly like the A2, but of course with better IQ and lenses choice.

--
GiorgioPM

This comes up pretty often. Prosumers are still made, you mention the R1. But I'd say FZ30/FZ50, Fuji S6500 and S9500/S9600 and Samsung Pro 1 (2/3" sensor) are prosumers too. The Canon G7 is close, but with now raw maybe not.

mark moe said:

There is no reason a high end Prosumer should focus slower than a
DSLR ...

Click to expand...

Yes, there is. With prosumers, the AF is software based, analyzing a captured frame for differences in contrast. With dSLRs, the focusing process is based on optics rather than software.

Ilias

--
http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/iliask

me_2 said:

... but this type of high quality camera apparently kills profits.
They seduced us with the D7(H)(i)A1/2 lens only to make us want and
buy lots of expensive glass for DSLRs...

Click to expand...

not a lot: you can chose the lenses just you need.

Moreover the camera is obsolete in 3-4 years, but the lenses not: you can reuse them.
I just wished to have a user friendly and performant camera (see EVIL).

May be it could be a bargain also for the vendors: 1 body (production scale factor saves production costs) and many prosumers Digicams, just changing the lenses.
You are invited to buy more glass (the temptation is high), but not oblied.

If you resist the temptation, better for your pocket, otherwise better for the vendor.
But more fun for Prosumers.

me_2 said:

--
http://www.pbase.com/maurus_e/

Click to expand...

--
GiorgioPM

mark moe said:

There is no reason a high end Prosumer should focus slower than a
DSLR--anyone w/ kids NEEDS fast focusing.Yet the A2 still had
wireless flash, real control dials, programable settings and a flew
focus that let you move the focus spot around in the image to your
liking.

I don't like size comarisons of prosumers w/ DSLR bodies. W/ a DSLR
too small of a body will upset balance w/ larger/heavier lenses.

A DSLR w/ lens that covers the Minolta A2's (example prosumer
camera) of a 28-200 2.8-3.5 APO G lens is not going to be an all in
one lens. The 2/3" sensor was a good comprimise for lens
construction. And in an all in one the lens can be set much closer
to the sensor.

Click to expand...

It was so good that you didn't need anything else for next 3-4 years ...
Where is the Sony business?

Awfully I missed to buy it, waiting for the 10 Mp (and in the meantime Minolta disappeared).

The all in one DSLR lenses (18-200 for example) have

mark moe said:

more distortion and are a lot slower than the example camera's lens.

Maybe Fuji will step up...they have less to lose in lens sales and
they seem to have a good handle on noise. But they will need AS in
the lens or body to make many of us happy.

Click to expand...

--
GiorgioPM

iliask said:

mark moe said:

There is no reason a high end Prosumer should focus slower than a
DSLR ...

Click to expand...

Yes, there is. With prosumers, the AF is software based, analyzing
a captured frame for differences in contrast. With dSLRs, the
focusing process is based on optics rather than software.

Ilias

Click to expand...

I understand it is more complicated (and expensive) right now but you are saying that it isn't possible to come up with a technology that would work in non-dSLR's to make almost instant AF? I am sure they could figure something out if they really wanted to.

-Darryl

tony brown said:

For me, the DSLR was the only way I could get a large sensor with
the associated low noise at high ISO. 6 or 8 Mpixels (but GOOD
QUALITY Mpx) was enough data for my printing output requirements.

The latter meant having quality Zoom lenses to make best use of
those 6 MPx and I chose Canon lenses and therefore a Canon DSLR.

I am quite unimpressed with the rather dim and unfocusworthy view
in a less than full frame optical viewfinder with a small aperture
lens on it. I would quite happily forget the mirror and associated
mechanics for a high quality zoomable EVF which will be lighter
smaller etc., but, as you say, the non DSLR does seem to be not
quite there.

An interchangeable lens EVF would do me but it would need at least
an APS sized sensor so the lens focal length required and its size
would be the biggest thing on the camera and the end product hardly
pocketable although inherently less mechanical.

The latest Sigma DP1 MIGHT just be a forerunner but, by the time it
had interchangeable lenses, it would almost be the same burden to
lug around as the current DSLRs. I hope the unnecessary reflex
mirror and weight, size and mechanical complexity vanishes in this
decade.

Click to expand...

I hope much earlier.

To accelerate the process it's enough not to buy cameras until arrives what we want: better noninterchangeable or EVILs.

tony brown said:

Cheers, Tony.

Click to expand...

--
GiorgioPM

I totally agree. If the F30, for all practical matters, equals a 6MP DSLR at ISO 800, then a 2/3" version should be neck-to-neck at ISO 1600. This is more than enough for my needs, especially since small-sensor cameras have a dozen (or so) other advantages over DSLRs.

Prog.