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Difference between fz50 and V-LUX 1 from the horses mouth

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Gary R. said:
Talk about judge, jury and executioner, whew. Sounds like you've
already decided you want to gripe so now you're digging for
something to justify it, give it a break, this is a REAL stretch.

Now just what would you expect Leica to say, "Oh yes, it's the
identical camera, we just made a few superficial changes so we can
claim it's different."
Click to expand...
I don't expect BS from marketing when its only a bloody menu item that's set to a diff default. such a fuss over such a NON IMPORTANT item. its not worth even mentioning.

but leica did mention it. they made sure to say that their version was somehow 'better' via this very vague marketing message.

I just want straight talk, is that asking too much?

when sony starts their nonsense with 'raw' when its not raw - that annoys me. and when pany and leica pull this stuff, that also annoys me.

the price diff in 'the red dot' was stupid enough. people were led to believe, somehow, that one cam was less noisy than the other. NO, not just dumb menu settings that are set to diff default values, but real actual image diffs. people allude to some german tests that 'prove' the leica cam was the better cam (on the lx1 model). I didn't put much credence into that and I wrote it off as experimental error or sample variation.

this time around with the fz50/lx2 generation, panaleica pulled a diff tactic. instead of just staying silent (since the digilux and lx1 WERE the same cams) - this time they decided to FUD it up. make some people second-guess whether the red-dot was worth the extra scratch or not ;)

I just don't like this kind of stuff entering into technical products. canon is also playing a lot of marketing games these days and its a real turn-off, I have to say. and now pany is starting to pick up on that and I'm not happy about THAT, either.

if you find this too bitter of a pill, well, deal with it. I'm not alone in feeling disgust in how this fz50/lx2 vs lecia-alikes are being communicated and handled.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
linuxworks said:
I don't expect BS from marketing when its only a bloody menu item
that's set to a diff default. such a fuss over such a NON
IMPORTANT item. its not worth even mentioning.
Click to expand...
Then you're living in a dream world (or as I suggested, looking for something to complain about). Marketing is marketing, that's their job; someone asked them the difference, they gave the differences. They have every right to claim it's 'better', just as any company would. You extrapolate that into "Panasonic crippled the FZ50".

Manufacturers do shady things in terms of marketing; this is nothing. Upsampling to more pixels and claiming them as 'real' is disgusting, yet it's been done many times over, get uptight about that. Canon cripples its lower priced Drebels, go yell at them, you're making a big deal over nothing
linuxworks said:
but leica did mention it. they made sure to say that their version
was somehow 'better' via this very vague marketing message.
Click to expand...
as I said, what do you expect, Leica to just say "oh yeah, it's the same except for a couple of cosmetic changes, might as well buy theirs"? Get real, that's unreasonable.
linuxworks said:
I just want straight talk, is that asking too much?
Click to expand...
If you're expecting just a spec sheet for each new camera, yes it is. They do this to make money, not as a race for technical specs.
linuxworks said:
I just don't like this kind of stuff entering into technical
products. canon is also playing a lot of marketing games these
days and its a real turn-off, I have to say. and now pany is
starting to pick up on that and I'm not happy about THAT, either.

if you find this too bitter of a pill, well, deal with it. I'm not
alone in feeling disgust in how this fz50/lx2 vs lecia-alikes are
being communicated and handled.
Click to expand...
Depends on your viewpoint. If you view a camera as a technical product, that's up to you, but it's a consumer product designed to sell to people who want to take photos. "Spec racers" are only a minor part of the market and probably irrelevant.

But you seem to be getting so uptight over what amounts to business as usual. GM makes cars that run across brands, you would expect Pontiac to say theirs is better than Chevy's, and Cadillac to say theirs is best. So what? You dismiss that and look at what it offers, and buy the one (or none) that you find suits you. Same with Panasonic and Leica, what's the big deal to get so indignant about?

Nothing for me to deal with, it doesn't bother me...if it 'disgusts' you, then you need to deal with that, but I expect you'll be disgusted a lot, and really, aren't there more important things to get upset about? It's a camera, designed to take photos, not a motherboard on a linux server (on which you'll also get marketing hype).
--
Gary
Photo albums: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse
 
Gary R. said:
linuxworks said:
I don't expect BS from marketing when its only a bloody menu item
that's set to a diff default. such a fuss over such a NON
IMPORTANT item. its not worth even mentioning.
Click to expand...
Then you're living in a dream world (or as I suggested, looking for
something to complain about).
Click to expand...
if wanting to cut the BS is called 'lving in a dreamworld' then yes, guilty as charged.
Gary R. said:
Manufacturers do shady things in terms of marketing; this is
nothing.
Click to expand...
its a new low for pany/leica, though. they conciously decided to muddy the waters to TRY to scoop up extra cash from unsuspecting buyers. for shame! there are honest ways to make a living and dishonest ways. you know where I stand on this...
Gary R. said:
as I said, what do you expect, Leica to just say "oh yeah, it's the
same except for a couple of cosmetic changes, might as well buy
theirs"? Get real, that's unreasonable.
Click to expand...
no, differentiate based on accessories, like they did before. nothing shady about that. but when you try to scare customers into thinking the red-dot is the BETTER picture taker, THAT is where I call BS on them.
Gary R. said:
But you seem to be getting so uptight over what amounts to business
as usual.
Click to expand...
pany had more honor before this stunt. I respected it. I respect them a lot less now.

when the suits call the shots more than the engineers, I have to object.

some companies are very engineering-driven. some are very fluff and marketing driven. and some change/lose their way, over time, too. I'll leave it at that.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
this feels to me like the "fan boy" effect, mirroring the demise of star trek. in the opinion of a curmedgeonly trekkie.

star trek has a HUGE following, a cultish one even; and it's been around for a long time. it's gotten to the point now where all of the talent that produced the early shows have moved on. because they garnered such a tightly knit community of followers, the people most inclined to take over the leadership were amongst the fans, starting a cycle of decadence.

every new generation is a poor copy of the last. and the best times are always the ones behind you. there becomes less innovation and more gimmicks. the buisness becomes a means to milk fan for all thier worth and the fans thensevles, in the end, get totally alienated.

--
*~*~*~*~*~*
Steph
http://MashTun.smugmug.com
Panny effzee thirty, foogee eff twenty

 
hmm..i should also add, that collaborating with panny could have been such a great thing for lecia if they could think outside of thier lecia worlds for a minute. but alas, it is not the fan boy way to think outside the box.

my understanding of the camera design was that it was almost like an open source camera between the two of them. pana took what this process popped out and loaded it up with a venus III engine, because that's what they've got in production right now. lecia, is not left with a great camera with no driver. so what do they do? well..something..we don't know yet. but no matter what it is, they have to say its "better" and that it is "lecia like" to sell to thier niche. they won't bite unless its a "lecia" through and through.

If panna really has crippled thier own camera for lecia, then that's totally disgusting, and i will be playing with my new nikon D80 come christmas time instead. but what i see happening is that panna is under no pressure to do so as per thier collaboration with lecia. that would mean lecia runs the show, but as far as i can see, either can do what they want with thier camera. lecia chooses to sell at a higher price and call it "better because it's thier MP. they've always done it this way. what camera haven't they produced that wasn't "better" and more "lecia like" and much more expensive than anything else on the market?
--
*~*~*~*~*~*
Steph
http://MashTun.smugmug.com
Panny effzee thirty, foogee eff twenty

 
linuxworks...

I really don't see a problem here.

Essentially, we have the same camera marketed by two different firms. Naturally, each one will customize it to suit their brand image and their customers. (The Panasonic WON'T get a red dot!)

This is like Cadillac selling you a Corvette with Cadillac badges on it, and a few changes,.... for twice the price of a Corvette. The call it a "Cadillac XLR Roadster" and they have to tell you WHY it's worth twice as much as a Corvette.

This sort of dual marketing isn't that uncommon. I own an Infiniti QX4 which is essentially the same car as a Nissan Pathfinder. But it costs $3000 more. But, like Leica, Infiniti is throwing in more standard features, a longer warranty, better customer service, and a more "status." Should the Nissan owner feel that Nissan cheated him because he didn't get the Xenon headlights that the Infiniti has? Maybe... but remember, he saved $3000!

No doubt Leica had to make their version seem "better" for their customers who want to pay for for the Leica cache. So, they tweaked the firmware, threw in a larger memory card, and gave you better photo editing software.

Without a doubt, there are subtle differences in tone due to this tweaking. But, these are subjective things. Given a blind side by side test, 50% might prefer the Panasonic settings, and 50% might prefer the Leica settings.

In any case I seriously doubt Panasonic degraded their own product, or intentionally made it less accurate in color rendition so it would help sell more Leicas. This is just a case of Leica making a few changes to justify the huge price differential, for exactly the same camera. Think about it. They HAVE to do something to get those prices.

If I was very wealthy, I would own the Leica.
But since I live on a budget, I'll take the Panasonic every time.

--
Marty

I haven't touched my Canons since I got my Lumix FZ20
 
Marty4650 said:
I really don't see a problem here.

Essentially, we have the same camera marketed by two different
firms. Naturally, each one will customize it to suit their brand
image and their customers. (The Panasonic WON'T get a red dot!)
Click to expand...
I don't see one either; I just can't see what's such a big deal for some.

If Leica had made substantial improvements over the FZ50, people would "hate" Panasonic as we've already seen, for "crippling" their camera.

If Leica sold an absolutely identical camera but with a red dot, people would say 'what do you think, we're idiots, why would we pay more for that?' or 'that's just for Leica snobs' as we've already seen.

So they tweak some defaults, perhaps make some other somewhat minor changes for color rendition etc., add a larger card, better warranty, better software, and sell it for more, perhaps to appeal to some who have owned Leica and liked them, and what happens? "Panny" is now sleazy because they probably crippled their camera, Leica is trash now because it's lowerd its standards and is floundering to avoid bankruptcy. They're all lying to us.

Sometimes this forum gets just plain ridiculous. This is one of those times.
--
Gary
 
I think we are jumping to conclusions here. So if Leica tweeked the Venus III engine, your paying for it witht he price of the camera. I noticed that it was said they look similar, are they kidding, I just looked at the pics of both cameras and they are identical except for the red dot Leica badge. If they got that wrong, who is to say they are right about the tweeking. Personally I do not believe they did anything but stick their label on the camera, gave a 3year warranty and jacked upo the price because it says Leica. I do not believe that they can do much tweeking with the same sensor as the FZ50 and the ten MP. Oh, they can tweek the luminance levels a bit but it will still have the noise and then they have to do the noise reduction, maybe they cut down the nose reduction a bit. But then they would have a noiser camera than the FZ50 and that would not dd at all. I think personally they are the exact same camera. I cannot wait to see some pics from one.
 
Marty4650 said:
linuxworks...

I really don't see a problem here.

Essentially, we have the same camera marketed by two different
firms. Naturally, each one will customize it to suit their brand
image and their customers. (The Panasonic WON'T get a red dot!)
Click to expand...
they simply have to be honest and not 'hint around' that the PQ is better in one vs the other.

if its a menu default item, then say so and don't imply there is any VALUE in getting a pre-set menu item! my god - for hundreds of dollars you want them to pre-set a menu item for you! is that value???
Marty4650 said:
This sort of dual marketing isn't that uncommon.
Click to expand...
no, its not uncommon, but that doesn't mean we have to sit and take it and LIKE it. this forum is a good vehicle to air our views, both good and bad, for the vendor to hear. I want them to know very clearly how I feel about this charade. that's all. a vote of disapproval for this kind of marketing mess.

I will approve of things that they do that are good (there are many!). but I won't run their flag up my flagpole for all their 'design' details. this menu item silliness I can do without. how much money did they waste spending time even DECIDING on this stuff? who gets to pay for this overhead? we do - in the form of higher product and r/d costs.
Marty4650 said:
I own an Infiniti
QX4 which is essentially the same car as a Nissan Pathfinder. But
it costs $3000 more.
Click to expand...
I have friends who have the lexus when its mostly a toyota. BUT - they also tell me that when they have warranty issues they simply take the car to the dealer and they FIX IT - no nonsense. compare to a lower tier car brand and you will always be fighting with the service advisor. I certainly get no respect from my local VW dealer. otoh, if it was an audi (mostly the same car as mine but rebadged) I'd get more respect from the dealer.

warranty and customer support is FINE to differentiate. the menu item stuff just seems like its not even worth the effort to call that out as a detail. or even HAVE it as a detail! I mean, where do they get off thinking that a 'leica user' would DESERVE a better picture than a 'pedestrian old pany user' ;) that elitism also turns me off. make the product as good as you can and sell it. stop playing around.
Marty4650 said:
No doubt Leica had to make their version seem "better" for their
customers who want to pay for for the Leica cache. So, they tweaked
the firmware, threw in a larger memory card, and gave you better
photo editing software.
Click to expand...
did they tweak the firmware? tweak is NOT the word I'd use if they changed ONLY a default user-settable menu default value. that is just not a tweak. its a vendor-specific default value that is SO VERY EASILY set by the user - its a laugh to call this a differentiator.
Marty4650 said:
In any case I seriously doubt Panasonic degraded their own product,
or intentionally made it less accurate in color rendition so it
would help sell more Leicas. This is just a case of Leica making a
few changes to justify the huge price differential, for exactly the
same camera. Think about it. They HAVE to do something to get those
prices.
Click to expand...
no, they don't. in fact, I think its horrible they even TRY to put a damned red dot on a consumer level noisebox.

seriously. these are panys, panys, panys. the lens is leica DESIGN and the rest is pany.

leica is a very high end (or used to be!) lens and mechanical camera maker. all these panys are not really anywhere near what a leica is supposed to be.

truth in advertising goes a long way. lying also goes a long way, but not in the way the company had wished..

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
Bear 740 said:
I think we are jumping to conclusions here. So if Leica tweeked
the Venus III engine, your paying for it witht he price of the
camera. I noticed that it was said they look similar, are they
kidding, I just looked at the pics of both cameras and they are
identical except for the red dot Leica badge.
Click to expand...
that has been the case on all previous dual-marketed models.
Bear 740 said:
If they got that
wrong, who is to say they are right about the tweeking. Personally
I do not believe they did anything but stick their label on the
camera, gave a 3year warranty and jacked upo the price because it
says Leica.
Click to expand...
on previous models, yes. on the new series, though, its now about menu items (supposedly). a menu item being set to A as-shipped vs B is not a tweak.
Bear 740 said:
I do not believe that they can do much tweeking with
the same sensor as the FZ50 and the ten MP.
Click to expand...
yes, I think they could! any normal hardware based engine (or hardware-accelerated engine that is software driven) has a bunch of control registers and parameters you can set to various integer values to control its operation. I would assume the pany is no different as this is a common theme in hardware. so its a TRUE TWEAK if they set some less agressive values in some CSRs (control/status registers) before calling the venus engine. THAT is the tweak I thought they were hinting at.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
linuxworks said:
no, they don't. in fact, I think its horrible they even TRY to put
a damned red dot on a consumer level noisebox.

seriously. these are panys, panys, panys. the lens is leica
DESIGN and the rest is pany.

leica is a very high end (or used to be!) lens and mechanical
camera maker. all these panys are not really anywhere near what a
leica is supposed to be.

truth in advertising goes a long way. lying also goes a long way,
but not in the way the company had wished..

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
Gotta agree, I really dont see the logic of a re-badge pannie camera..and a pumped up price. My memories of leica are with the superb 35mm cameras...a once in a lifetime purchase for many, but the quality was in a league of its own. I think they do themselves great damage taking, lets be blunt...mediocre pannie cams and putting a red dot on them.

I have no problems with a real leica..but this is really nothing more than a cheap trick...if the original cameras were in a league of their own to start with...least then you have something there...but not this stuff...no thanks

--

 
Gary R. said:
Marty4650 said:
I really don't see a problem here.

Essentially, we have the same camera marketed by two different
firms. Naturally, each one will customize it to suit their brand
image and their customers. (The Panasonic WON'T get a red dot!)
Click to expand...
I don't see one either; I just can't see what's such a big deal for
some.

If Leica had made substantial improvements over the FZ50, people
would "hate" Panasonic as we've already seen, for "crippling" their
camera.

If Leica sold an absolutely identical camera but with a red dot,
people would say 'what do you think, we're idiots, why would we pay
more for that?' or 'that's just for Leica snobs' as we've already
seen.

So they tweak some defaults, perhaps make some other somewhat minor
changes for color rendition etc., add a larger card, better
warranty, better software, and sell it for more, perhaps to appeal
to some who have owned Leica and liked them, and what happens?
"Panny" is now sleazy because they probably crippled their camera,
Leica is trash now because it's lowerd its standards and is
floundering to avoid bankruptcy. They're all lying to us.

Sometimes this forum gets just plain ridiculous. This is one of
those times.
--
Gary
Click to expand...
Sometimes people just refuse to accept that anyone else can have a valid point. Sadly...superfanboy mode doesnt do you any service on this. For once it would be nice to see you be somewhat more objective....I fully expect your usual personal insults to follow this comment...as per usual...

--

 
linuxworks said:
these are panys, panys, panys. the lens is leica
DESIGN and the rest is pany.
Click to expand...
Amen. The red dot on a Panasonic relies on Leica reputation to convince the potential buyer that it has more value than the same camera without a red dot. I've owned a few Leica cameras and lenses over the years and don't subscribe to the common opinion that Leicas are overpriced toys - they're incredibly tough, well engineered cameras with superlative build quality. Those attributes are what make a Leica expensive, not the red dot they stick on it.

--
John Bean

PAW Week 38:
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/1082841/3/97517668/Large



Index page: http://waterfoot.smugmug.com
Latest walkabout (4 April): http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/1348582
 
Over on Steve's Digicams, there is a thread about this subject, with a quote from a Leica rep in the US. The rep states that for the camera being discussed, a Digilux model, the Leica standard setting is equivalent to the Pany low setting, and that the Pany Lumix cameras cannot reach the Leica low setting.

"The obvious difference between the two unequal sisters is without a doubt the unique design of the LEICA DIGLUX 2. Leica is a welcome change from the mainstream "Japanese design". The design is reminiscent of the M System cameras and therefore easily fits into the Leica range. The clear arrangement of all operating elements makes handling this camera extremely simple and is very quick to learn. It is important to know that the two camera models provide very different picture results. This is due to the different settings on the internal camera software, responsible for the contrast, the color saturation and edge definition. The three factors can be set to three different stages (Low - Standard - High) on the camera. Leica has deliberately agreed to a more neutral setting here. Our Standard setting therefore corresponds to Panasonic's Low setting. The Panasonic Lumix cameras cannot reach our Low setting. The point of this is that dedicated photographers prefer to process their images afterwards in Photoshop. To do this they need as neutral an image as possible from the camera. If the image from the camera has been defined too strongly or if the color saturation is too high, this is naturally much more difficult to correct afterwards. Customer who do not want to post-edit their images can individualize their shots with the appropriate camera settings for focus, color and contrast. Furthermore, with Adobe Photoshop Elements and ACDSee we supply software with an excellent reputation with the camera.

The Panasonic model comes with Arc Software and a 16MB SD card. The Digilux 2 comes with a 64MB SD card. We have a 3 year warranty, I don't know what the LC1 warranty is."

This doesn't refer to the FZ50, but if the Venus engine is the same V-III, the situation they describe here could pertain. Or it could all be marketing. They seem to claim that the Leica software is different from the Panasonic models. And they also say flat out, the Pany models cannot reach the LOW settings in the Leica model. Major buzz-kill......
 
Baker24 said:
all be marketing. They seem to claim that the Leica software is
different from the Panasonic models. And they also say flat out,
the Pany models cannot reach the LOW settings in the Leica model.
Major buzz-kill......
Click to expand...
this helps illustrate my point - now it seems its not just a menu item DEFAULT setting but according to this, it sounds like the whole parameter block got shifted, not just some menu item.

so if its like this, then I have to continue to say that the pany is the hobbled camera, intentionally. the only way they'd get a pass from me (imho) is if the design and ship deadlines were months away from each other; ie, if pany had to lock in their design and tweaks to make some product release schedule and leica had their own release train to march to. and if leica found a way to make the engine more refined via some CSR values that get set when you choose a menu item - but it was too late to feed-back that new tech over to pany so they could update their code - THAT would be a semi-valid excuse. but somehow, I kind of doubt this is how things played out. I bet pany did 98% of the hardware and software devel and leica just designed their skins-and-dots and had access to pany's build tools (for software integration) and was able to change some values before creating a .bin file to stuff into their cams on their production lines.

either way, its lame. none of the pany cams are leicas. none can take a hammering of abuse. in fact, if you look at a pany the wrong way, sometimes its lcd cracks ;( is THAT a leica??? no it is not!! for leica to sell out on consumer cams is like seeing a porsche making and selling shopping carts but painting them candy apple red and giving them fat tyres and a logo ;)

if leica wants to play games, at least be fully upfront about it.

when the marketing message is so confused (you have to admit, even for our 'pany experts' here, of where there are many real heavy and expert pany users) - for us to be confused by this and require a company spokesman to help answer what the diff is between the 2 badges - that means they failed in what they were trying to do.

what I want is for them to be 100% upfront about their 'design' and tell us, plainly, in straight talk, what the real and imagined (marketing) diffs are. then we can make an INFORMED decision.

to say 'buy ours, its SOMEHOW better - just trust us' - no, I will NOT just trust you, pany/leica. I require more data than that - sorry.

what's next panaleica: face recognition? and how will leica differentiate on THAT - will leica be able to detect TALLER or PRETTIER peoples' faces vs the same panycam? (LOL!!).

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
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