Photokina first impressions...

The word "clueless" comes to mind.
The words "very successful" come to mind.
Very successful with the current camera aimed at the current market. What David is hearing though indicated that they may not get the next level up. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that the noise they are hearing about the next camera and the high lenses is coming from a market that is not interested in the A100 and has higher standards/needs. Yet Sony sounds "clueless" about it right now. Sorry. That is just the way I read it.

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/bobfloyd
 
You think so ? It never did with KM. I suspect there's a certain
closed-door arrogance in these Japanese companies; that they rely
on their own marketing research and don't want to hear ideas from
elsewhere. You saw David's post ... he says Paul Genge might
cautiously approach Sony Japan with user feedback.
I should not take Paul's name in vain - the qualify that, he would never put ANYTHING to his management which was not based on proper research, quantifying things. The last thing he would ever do is retail ideas based on my chatter, or the thoughts of many here. He does read this forum, doesn't always like the amount of information I pass on, and is completely professional in how he handles information. If Sony suddenly started getting hundreds of letters complaining about an issue, or people taking cameras back to the dealer because the results were not what they expected, then you'd see 'feedback' getting through.

Paul - and his colleagues - are all looking forward to the 16-80mm because it is apparently (on early tests) driving the already very high extinction resolution sensor to the maximum. They know they have the sharpest knife in the box, and they are reckoning on this lens, when released, to give the A100 a test performance which blows away every 10.x megapixel.

What probably fails to come over is how upbeat and optimistic the entire Sony outfit currently is. I never once in over five years of dealing with Mr Paul Genge - first digital training officer, then product manager, then overall camera division manager - at Minolta then at Konica Minolta - saw him as happy, confident or enthusiastic. And it appears that a few key execs from certain other UK photo companies have jumped ship and joined Sony in the last few weeks.

So the view from within Sony is entirely different from 'our' view outside!

David
 
The word "clueless" comes to mind.
The words "very successful" come to mind.
Very successful with the current camera aimed at the current
market. What David is hearing though indicated that they may not
get the next level up. It does not take a rocket scientist to
understand that the noise they are hearing about the next camera
and the high lenses is coming from a market that is not interested
in the A100 and has higher standards/needs. Yet Sony sounds
"clueless" about it right now. Sorry. That is just the way I read
it.
And that was what people last Spring... and those people were wrong

These are the sales field. They are about what we are selling now and what should we be saying to sell more of it.
They are not the product planners. The engineers. The designers.

They are also known to not always be good at keeping secrets so planners don't tell then anything they don't want public.

Sony for many product succesfully creates consumer and pro tiers to thier lines. Sometimes when the conumser end fails (like beta max) the pro does very well.

I am not worried...

If there was a chance that Sony would not be looking at SSM lenses.. Pentax fixed that.. because they are the closest in feature set and Sony isn't going to give up this position.

These are my 2007 Sony predictions.
SEALED BODY
5fps
Grip
and at least 4 SSM lenses announced or released by Photokina 2007

--
------------
Ken - KM 5D
Sigma Trinity 10-20, 24-135 f2.8-4.5, 70-300 APO DG
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
 
It's hard to argue with any of the stuff you have written here. As to this 'Sony is keeping its cards close to its chest because competitors might steal its secrets'-----I say this is far overrated. I know some people said that Canon was forced to react (to the A100) and come out with the 400D. This is farther from the truth as Canon releases its updates like clockwork. The Rebel franchise was just due for an upgrade since it's been about 18 mos. since the 350D was released.

Going back to Sony, what top secret(s) could it be that would prevent them from offering a roadmap------a 2007 release of a 1D/DS killer with 24MP, clean ISO 6400, ,weather seals 12fps for US$ 1999?????

From Sony's comments (Dave's report), do you think that they value SSS more than SSM? Well the in-body IS is no longer unique as Pentax has it. Maybe Sony executives should shoot more with the 70-200 SSM and compare that experience with non-SSM lenses.

BTW, more and more Canonites are seeing the value of the in-body IS and I think Canon might be forced to come out with this technology in the future.

Regards,

José
Seriously, I may not be happy with some things Sony's doing; happy
with others ... but I've always been of the mindset that if you're
going to spend all your time complaining, just find something that
will make you happy and be done with it. I may not be happy with
Sony's direction at the moment, and you can bet I wouldn't buy a
new Sony DSLR system if buying from scratch, but there's nothing I
really need, so nothing to really complain about. SSM lenses ?
Can't say I'd upgrade if they were available ! But that 16-80
looks like a prize !
Exactly...
But lets not forget the key statement. That they plan to compete
with Canon at all levels. At some point they will need to do more
for the advanced "gearheads" But it is clear they are more than
likely the #3 force in DSLRS for from now on.
Assuming that is true, it will be hard to do when Sony apparently
is so clueless about the market. It was USM focusing that
initially drove many Nikon shooters to switch to Canon. Nikon
responded, however belatedly. David's report indicates that Sony
does not understand this, or the practical benefits in actual
picture taking that USM/SW/SSM focusing provides. This is not a
"gearhead" item, but rather a very practical feature that improves
the photographic experience and facilitates better picture taking.
Sony could easily be the #3 player for a long time based solely on
sales of entry-level cameras. But, it will never be able to
challenge Canon or Nikon on that basis alone.
Canon isn't marketing to gearheads with the Rebel, nor the low end
IS or even low end SSM style lenses.
No, but Canon has such a great reputation as a pro brand, which
"obviously" means its entry level cameras must also be better. The
entry level consumer is guided by far different considerations,
many of which are more related to marketing than actual product
quality or practical picture taking.
For each market Sony will need to adjust.
That's saying a mouthful. There is no indication Sony gets that.
Why is the A100 the only camera in its class that does not take a
vertical grip?
The one thing I find discouraging is thier writing off of
enthusiast publications like David's... it will be harded to get
them on board for the Advanced cameras if they burn too many
bridges now. That is not good future thinking.
That's for sure, and it also is a sign that Sony really doesn't get
it. SSM unimportant? Noise not an issue? No support or interest
in what David is doing? Lousy photos at a marketing trade show?
To me what this shows is a disdain for the consumer, and an
approach geared to a lower common demoninator than where much of
the profit in this market is located (profits are far higher for
higher end cameras than entry level cameras, though I have no clue
what the ratio is).

All of this comes on top of the various service problems that have
existed ever since the Sony "takeover" (even if they were not all
Sony's fault - like parts availability), which showed a total lack
of understanding of what they were getting into. The DSLR market
is very different than the P&S market that Sony was used to playing
in.

Yes, I am venting some of my frustrations in this thread. Probably
because I'm now facing a huge expense to change systems. But, Sony
"made me do it" (with a little Minolta and KM thrown in). Real
bummer.

--
Mark Van Bergh
--
Shooting with the famous Replacements (1DMarkIIN, 30D and SD700IS)
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_1dmk2n
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_30and20d
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/maxxum_7d
 
only Nikon and Canon are the only manufacturers who have this feature? Even the newly announced mid-range DSLRs SD14 and S5Pro don't have it. Is this expensive to do? Other manufacturers don't find this feature important?

José
Within last 18 months I spend over $10K on KM glass alone.
I feel bad for spending $1800 in the last 18 months. Yikes. I feel
your pain.
a few fussy, easy to obessess over 1-2 features forum posters are > not driving their sales... anymore.
When those 1 to 2 features make or break a camera, it's nothing
trivial or obessive. When you have to borrow a Canon Rebel to take
basic group pictures which are virtually impossible with a Sony/KM,
we have a problem Houston.
The A-mount future is on fire...
Wonderful - that should give me good resale value for my
equipment/lenses. :D
and ready to push hard on Nikon and Canon.
You mean in "sales" to the "mass market" of the inexperienced, not
quality, right?
Sony gets it, they got it, they are selling a-mount cameras at a more htan successful rate... and it is or it isn't going to match what you want.
I dont care how many cameras they sell. I care about the cameras
themselves and whether they address serious issues that people have
been complaining about for 2 years with KM DSLRs! Even if they
doubled Canon+Nikon sales, I wouldn't be happy if the camera still
has serious issues.

Again, I dont really care about Sony sales, profits, and success in
the marketplace unless it's accompanied with quality equipment that
holds a candle to Canon & Nikon.
Now that said... Sony sounds like they want to take on Canon at > all levels
All talk and speculation at this point. Where's 5FPS in an in-body
stabilized camera?
They've said they're marketing differently from a traditional camera company; targeting young people, families, etc.
Scary thought. They just need good marketing for that, not good
equipment.
If read they may have improved some things like AF speed/accuracy > and possibly the metering. They didn't fix the flash issues apparently
Right, they didnt. 2 years of complaining, and zero improvement.

OH well, maybe we just need to wait for the next Sony DSLR. One
thing for certain if you're in the Sony camp, you'll be doing a lot
of waiting.
--
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_1dmk2n
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_30and20d
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/maxxum_7d
 
David, thank you very much for your efforts

"Paul would not be drawn on the issue of full sensors, but said 'Canon owns the full frame marketplace, and Sony intends to compete with Canon on all levels' - draw your own conclusions."

Good news, but clearly not shocking. I think they had already feed enough hints of a FF 9D replacement, but just gets things a bit more solid. Also good news for Nikon shooters. Since it will mean Nikon gets a FF chip too.

"SSM - Sony are confused by this. Believe it or not, the reply was that if they used SSM in regular lenses, it would devalue the existing SSM lenses. I put Paul right on this. He asked me specify exactly what SSM lenses would keep people happy, since the 16-80mm Zeiss is definitely not to be SSM, and the reason for the delay is that advance orders exceeded production capacity planned - they have therefore put back the sale date, and replanned the production facility, for a greater number of lenses. The A100 has exceeded all targets and there is now a lens shortage despite their decision to go ahead immediately with revisions of old Minolta designs in order to ensure there was NO shortage."

Hey, sounds like what I have said for a long time. SSM isn't needed for the cheaper stuff. Like sony, I don't get why so many people want this. Canon EOS mount was designed for in-lens motors. But I don't think all of them are super fast or anything special. To me saving SSM for the G line makes the most sense. Add the cost to the lenses where cost is less of an issue since people are already willing to pay if they are going G. I would have followed up with a question of more G's coming back with SSM. Knowing if the Big Gs are coming back is a big issue for me and probably others too.

Still curious if their answer is true on the 16-80, I wonder if overall demand for all lenses pushed it back. Also sounds like they may have been working on other lenses. Still, maybe comments like this from sony can squash people who think the A100 has flopped.

"We talked this through, and he will be passing my message on re: a superior 18-70mm lens, priced like the Nikon Silent Wave 3.5-4.5, similar to the 24-105mm in build, with SSM; a new version of the 100-300mm APO (D) with SSM. I said that if they just made those two it would solve the black hole situation."

Yah, that would help. Not sure about the APS lens though. I'd think bring back the 17-35 and 28-75 in SSM would be better.

"Apparently the noise issue which bugs people here is invisible in terms of feedback from sales. It is not an issue. But they are aware of the difference between the A100 and some other cameras."

Again a non shocker. As I have commented in endless threads and even other brands. Noise is not an issue. If it was sony could go and do something about it. But it's not hurting Sony, Nikon, Pentax sales. So why bother. And most people don't use their cameras in ways where it becomes an issues. It's a non-issue that a small people make a lot of noise over. I think sony has better things to deal with. But I doubt people will ever let it go.

And thanks for the other updates. Glad to see sony is paying attention to the K10D. It's should be a rolemodel for the A10. 7D with Seals, GPS, Dust removal, big sensor and so forth. Sadly. I will probably be buying a K10D with a couple pancakes as a hold over till Sony gets it in gear with future bodies and some lenses I want. Of course I think they also see the K10D as their biggest threat. It's the "other other-camera". If someone will pass over C and N for Sony, they are just as likely to go to Pentax. So that is who they need to trump. Trumping C and N is just icing on the cake.
 
Seriously, I may not be happy with some things Sony's doing; happy
with others ... but I've always been of the mindset that if you're
going to spend all your time complaining, just find something that
will make you happy and be done with it. I may not be happy with
Sony's direction at the moment, and you can bet I wouldn't buy a
new Sony DSLR system if buying from scratch, but there's nothing I
really need, so nothing to really complain about. SSM lenses ?
Can't say I'd upgrade if they were available ! But that 16-80
looks like a prize !
Exactly...
But lets not forget the key statement. That they plan to compete
with Canon at all levels. At some point they will need to do more
for the advanced "gearheads" But it is clear they are more than
likely the #3 force in DSLRS for from now on.
Assuming that is true, it will be hard to do when Sony apparently
is so clueless about the market. It was USM focusing that
initially drove many Nikon shooters to switch to Canon. Nikon
responded, however belatedly. David's report indicates that Sony
does not understand this, or the practical benefits in actual
picture taking that USM/SW/SSM focusing provides. This is not a
"gearhead" item, but rather a very practical feature that improves
the photographic experience and facilitates better picture taking.
Sony could easily be the #3 player for a long time based solely on
sales of entry-level cameras. But, it will never be able to
challenge Canon or Nikon on that basis alone.
Maybe you don't understand the market. I think Sony has found the simple fact that SSM isn't important on the consumer level camera/lenses. They are selling a ton of them. How many people do you even think know about SSM and so forth. They just know the thing Autofocus somehow. Not how and what's better, they just know it does. People really over-estimate the value of SSM to the average joe. I think saying that is facilitates better picture taking is really stretching things.
Canon isn't marketing to gearheads with the Rebel, nor the low end
IS or even low end SSM style lenses.
No, but Canon has such a great reputation as a pro brand, which
"obviously" means its entry level cameras must also be better. The
entry level consumer is guided by far different considerations,
many of which are more related to marketing than actual product
quality or practical picture taking.
For each market Sony will need to adjust.
That's saying a mouthful. There is no indication Sony gets that.
Why is the A100 the only camera in its class that does not take a
vertical grip?
When the A100 was launched the only camera with a grip was the 350D. And again, it's entry level. Not a whole lot of market for a grip.
The one thing I find discouraging is thier writing off of
enthusiast publications like David's... it will be harded to get
them on board for the Advanced cameras if they burn too many
bridges now. That is not good future thinking.
That's for sure, and it also is a sign that Sony really doesn't get
it. SSM unimportant? Noise not an issue? No support or interest
in what David is doing? Lousy photos at a marketing trade show?
To me what this shows is a disdain for the consumer, and an
approach geared to a lower common demoninator than where much of
the profit in this market is located (profits are far higher for
higher end cameras than entry level cameras, though I have no clue
what the ratio is).
Again, I think you don't understand what is important to the mass populous who buys an A100. They don't know what SSM is or care. They shoot as 100-400 ISO, so noise isn't an issue. Not that they know what noise is (I've tried to explain it to people I know with horrible noise in their photos and they don't see it or get it, or just think it was the weather).

The A100 isn't designed for photographers (though it's a perfectly fine tool). It's meant to sell in bulk to people who might buy a P&S, or want the next step. It's meant to be sold like a play station, just sell tons of them an saturate the market. It's a cheap entry level camera to pull new shooters into the mount.
 
Pentax does what many of us would like to see. A very very basic map.

Just basically tells you primitive info on lenses for the coming year. like right now the new map has "55mm" and "35mm" on it.

No other info. So at least you know something.

If sony had one that had

"300mm" "400mm" "600mm" we would know basically what's coming (new G's).
 
Thanks again, David

jmacshriver wrote that Ownuser is located at booth number "hall 7 E40", if this helps a little bit ;))
Ari
Hi,

Thanks again for excellent & quick reports - but did you saw any
sign for Ownuser Battery Grip (for KM 5D/7D, A100) ?

http://www.ownuser.com.tw/e-FBH1.htm
I checked the Chinese product hall and found all the replacement
batteries etc - very good stuff there - but no sign of this grip.
Photokina is huge and I was only there for a full day. So it is
probably there, and I just missed it.

David
--


  • Ari Aikomus -
 
Very successful, thanks to their marketing power and channel penetration, for their 1st DSLR. And, of course, other than the noise it's a terrific camera.

Let's see how they fare with the Canon 400, Nikon D80, and Pentax K10D lined up next to the Alpha at Circuit City. SSS is a huge advantage over the former two for the buyer looking at his or her 1st DSLR. Will that buyer choose Sony over Pentax due to comfort with the brand?

Not very successful, though, when one considers the opportunities that they, at least to me, appear to be squandering. They are losing too many of the KM user base by not having a step up camera ready to go. At least they should understand the value of that "road map" we all want.

Surely someone at Sony must realize this, but right now they seem to think we should all just be happy knowing they are making money. Making money is great - and necessary - but it's not my primary concern as a consumer.
 
They produce the a100 in at least three months. COnsidering that this is clearly a 5d with a bigger sensor, not a lot of work i think.

The new minolta 9d was expected in 2005. I think minolta was near to put on the market the new model. I can' understand why sony

has to wait one or two year to produce a new camera, considering that they are working on the same model the minolta was working at( i can't believe they are working on completely a new model)

If my 7d broke again? I have tried the alpha and the 5d and i dopn't like them at all. I use grip. I need grip cause it's very strange for me to use a camera without the grip.
No roadmap, yes they will produce better model, but when?

--
http://www.pbase.com/jon1976
 
Pentax does what many of us would like to see. A very very basic map.

Just basically tells you primitive info on lenses for the coming
year. like right now the new map has "55mm" and "35mm" on it.

No other info. So at least you know something.

If sony had one that had

"300mm" "400mm" "600mm" we would know basically what's coming
(new G's).
But Sony did announce a road map with the A100. They haven't updated it since - maybe no more lenses are planned for the immediate future.
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
I think the primary priority for Sony is to make a DSLR with a decent ISO400- ISO1600 wich they still didn't succeed with the ALPHA.

Would you buy a D7ii with everything you wish with same level of noise of the A100?
 
I should not take Paul's name in vain - the qualify that, he would
never put ANYTHING to his management which was not based on proper
research, quantifying things.
Makes sense ... it would be irresponsible and job-risking to put anything to mgt based on noise here :) Some of the noise just requires some understanding, like that some of the info/products/upgrades people want are carryovers from Minolta days and not new requirements.

Then, the other thing is that you really have to wonder how much of what people are asking for, they'd really pay for.
Paul - and his colleagues - are all looking forward to the 16-80mm
because it is apparently (on early tests) driving the already very
high extinction resolution sensor to the maximum. They know they
have the sharpest knife in the box, and they are reckoning on this
lens, when released, to give the A100 a test performance which
blows away every 10.x megapixel.
That's promising ... I was half-tempted to preorder rather than wait for tests under the assumption (based on CZ name & past Sony CZ lenses, price, spec, and the somewhat similar lens on the R1) that this lens will be aimed at fully resolving the A100's 10MP sensor (it would be a mistake if it generated lousy test results on a 10MP sensor). I seriously suspect that we'll see a handful of people show up on this forum in the future saying "I bought a Sony DSLR to use with the 16-80" ...
What probably fails to come over is how upbeat and optimistic the
entire Sony outfit currently is. I never once in over five years of
dealing with Mr Paul Genge - first digital training officer, then
product manager, then overall camera division manager - at Minolta
then at Konica Minolta - saw him as happy, confident or
enthusiastic. And it appears that a few key execs from certain
other UK photo companies have jumped ship and joined Sony in the
last few weeks.
That's good news ! I'm very happy to hear Sony is succeeding. BTW, on dyxum, there was a thread that more eloquently stated the concern I think some people here are feeling ... which is that Sony is going to succeed with its goals and possibly leave traditional photography buffs (or photography buffs with an affinity to traditional product lines !) in the dust ... the pieces of marketing strategy we hear about targeting younger people, families, etc. (the consumer electronics crowd) reinforces this.

For my mileage, we're already seeing more from Sony in a short time than we saw from KM in the way of product development; the 16-80 seems like a lens to build a system on; I'm still optimistic about an EVF-based camera and hopeful, rather than dreadful, that Sony will pursue this avenue.

Thanks again,
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
It is the issue of lenses which is most prevalent at the moment for me.

I have a lot of "old" glass and would like to rationalise the collection and add one or two new ones. At present I can only look to third party manufacturers and many desirable lenses are not available in the Sony mount.

Until Sony show some commitment (road map) to expand the lens options I won't be buying any Sony body, 7D replacement or otherwise. The Zeiss 16-80 is very tempting but I am looking at longer zooms such as the 100-400. If this was available in SSM I'd buy a A100 tomorrow.

Mike
7D with dusty sensor!!
 

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