Blown reds & Adobe RGB

ccarrier · Sep 20, 2006

In your color managment option, set the default RGB color space to NKsRGB.icm

and then check the "use this instead of an embedded profile when opening files".

You can still chose color mode II but when you save the file in JPEG, il will be saved in sRGB but with the color signature of mode II. Meaning, no blown red.

You have to distinguish between "color signature" and color profile. Mode Ia, II, and IIIa in Capture and on the D70 are color sginature. Way to render color. (proof beeing that mode Ia and IIIa are in sRGB but produce very diffrent colors).

So I always shoot raw, in color mode II on my D70. I then convert themm to sRGB space in NC but, preserving the color signature of mode II. It does a good job for me.

--
Claude Carrier

THKTHK · Sep 20, 2006

ccarrier said:
In your color managment option, set the default RGB color space to
NKsRGB.icm
and then check the "use this instead of an embedded profile when
opening files".
You can still chose color mode II but when you save the file in
JPEG, il will be saved in sRGB but with the color signature of mode
II. Meaning, no blown red.

Thank you very much indeed!!

I was looking for a solution like this for so long... this way I can use just the beloved NC, but still have nice reds.

Now it would be nice to understand what exactly happens, what is this colour signature?

I used to think this is all about colour spaces - but clearly not, as this setting proves, the same sRGB mode could behave quite differently.

--
Henrik

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

ccarrier said:
If you change the color mode from II to Ia or IIIa in NC it will
have the same effect as if you shot in that mode.

BUT :

In your color managment option, set the default RGB color space to
NKsRGB.icm

and then check the "use this instead of an embedded profile when
opening files".

You can still chose color mode II but when you save the file in
JPEG, il will be saved in sRGB but with the color signature of mode
II. Meaning, no blown red.

This sounds promising. My ultimate goal is to come up with a solution/workflow for this problem. But I'd like it to be good enough to use all the time, and not have to think about it at all. And furthermore, I'd like to use this for JPEGs. Sounds to me that if I want to avoid blown reds in JPEGs, I can forget about using either of the sRGB modes in my D70s. Then when I open the aRGB Mode II JPEG in CS2, handle the color space conversion. Only problem with that is I'd need to process every single JPEG I take (with CS2, which has the annoying habit of ruining the ISO data in EXIF!!), and viewing them right out of the camera will show the wrong colors. Argh!

THKTHK · Sep 20, 2006

Why do you use JPEGs?

One of the best features of D70 is the small NEF size, fast processing speed, so you can use RAW all the time. Much-much better than JPEG in every way.

Batch conversion works well in NC, so you do not need to process pictures separately.

With the setup ccarrier wrote it works just as it should: files will have sRGB space, but with correct reds

--
Henrik

PhotoLeon1935 · Sep 20, 2006

I have struggled with the same problem with flowers and stumbled on the solution that the problem was with the custom curve. I use P&S, but white wedding is very similar. I shoot a lot of poppies and gladiolus against a black background and try to underexpose by at least a stop.

But, I don't do that anymore! I shoot NEF and switch out the custom curve for a normal or low contrast curve in NC. You see, the only thing that makes the NC not work for NEF is the recognition of the curve! No other converter recognizes the curve whether it be custom or standard Nikon.

Just for laughs, just swap the custom curve for normal when making the conversion to JPG in NC. Eureka!

I love the P&S curve for almost everything I shoot with the exception of the bright red situation. My flower shots are all keepers now.

--
http://www.leongoodman.com/d70focusnew.html
http://www.pbase.com/photoleon
http://www.leongoodman.com

PhotoArtKC · Sep 20, 2006

It looks less saturated to me, otherwise the color doesnt appear to have changed very far. Our lab requires files to be in sRGB since aRGB will print very 'flat' looking for whatever reason using our print software. (Fuji and Kodak professional level print software.)

I'm willing to bet if you take out about 10% saturation off the top picture it would look virtualy the same.

RomanJohnston · Sep 20, 2006

echelon2004 said:
As you so wisely puts it, the data is what the data is.
And the "problem" is within the data.

The examples shown here seems to be strongly exagerated by poor
color management though.

I would agree...

echelon2004 said:
Are you using NC much?

Nope...cant stand it..but have used it and have it on my machine.

echelon2004 said:
Apart from disagreeing with you know, I have taken great pleasure
in your work and have not seen any evident and big mistakes in the
processing.

LOL....no problemo....we can disagree and still be civil (as you have just shown very well here) thank you very much!!

Roman

--

Photoshop is like bondo. Use it to smooth out and polish your work, not to compensate for your lack of body work skills.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

THKTHK said:
Why do you use JPEGs?
One of the best features of D70 is the small NEF size, fast
processing speed, so you can use RAW all the time. Much-much better
than JPEG in every way.

Batch conversion works well in NC, so you do not need to process
pictures separately.

With the setup ccarrier wrote it works just as it should: files
will have sRGB space, but with correct reds

In theory, I should be able to nail the exposure and WB and produce a perfectly servicable JPEG that takes up only 1.5MB on my computer. Obviously if I miss the above, then I'll wish I had shot RAW. But the persuit of good out of camera JPEGs (especially from a D70s) should drive me to take better pictures, or at least master my camera.

I do agree that from everything I've seen, RAWs seem to look better.

THKTHK · Sep 20, 2006

but not quite the same!

The original sRGB method from the camera oversaturates reds so much, they reach the end of gamut, gets clipped, hence loosing detail (you can check with gamut warning switched on in PS: basically the whole shirt of the lady is at the limit in the first sRGB). From that point, you cannot recover detail that is already blown.

Another issue is the shift towards orange (at least in my example, I know the red coat was like on the aRGB picture, not like the sRGB saved from NC).

But no problem anymore, following ccarrier's advice, with fixed NKsRGB profile in NC, and selected Adobe RGB, the JPG output is fine!

--
Henrik

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

echelon2004 said:
As you so wisely puts it, the data is what the data is.
And the "problem" is within the data.

The examples shown here seems to be strongly exagerated by poor
color management though.

Are you saying my examples show poor color management on my part? I assure you, the poor sRGB results came from doing nothing more than opening the NEF in the color mode IIIa (what I had the camera set to, btw). Can't get any more simple than that.

The data itself is fine as is proven by the fact that I was able to recover apparent lost data in the red channel. It was there the whole time but NC screwed it up.

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

THKTHK said:
But no problem anymore, following ccarrier's advice, with fixed
NKsRGB profile in NC, and selected Adobe RGB, the JPG output is
fine!

I need to try this. Will post results.

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

THKTHK said:
From that point, you cannot recover detail that is already
blown.

In photoshop, that's correct.

But maybe he was referring to NC? I can make a sample by using sRGB and turning the saturation to its lowest setting.

If he was talking about ACR, the problem never existed in the first place, even in sRGB.

echelon2004 · Sep 20, 2006

(and I had to read that name twich

Not you, Nikon Capture...

I trust you to be computer savy, but I doubt you could remap millions of pixels even if you wanted to =)

You're not really supposed to see much difference switching from one profile to another in a color profile aware application, only the colors that are out of gamut will change. Now, typical portraits don't hold many colors that are out of gamut using any color space, not much use for such a space.

So the results shown here is a sign that not everything is right in the state of denmark. Sorry, mean Nikon.

The fact that you don't get identical results doing the same color conversion in Nikon View helps to prove that.
--
Anders

Some of my pictures can be seen at;
http://teamexcalibur.se/US/usindex.html

event photography and photo journalism

THKTHK · Sep 20, 2006

simply because this oversaturation affects only reds - so desaturation should be done also only on the red channel, and AFAIK it is not possible in NC, but in PS.

I've found something about this oversaturation and shift towards orange:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D70S/D70SIMATEST.HTM

as you can see, most colours are quite on spot, only reds are off

--
Henrik

echelon2004 · Sep 20, 2006

kevm14 said:
In theory, I should be able to nail the exposure and WB and produce
a perfectly servicable JPEG that takes up only 1.5MB on my
computer.

yes.

kevm14 said:
Obviously if I miss the above, then I'll wish I had shot
RAW. But the persuit of good out of camera JPEGs (especially from
a D70s) should drive me to take better pictures, or at least master
my camera.

Now, if you shoot raw, you can use the time spent mastering an redundant part of the camera mastering photography?

kevm14 said:
I do agree that from everything I've seen, RAWs seem to look better.

Raw is not a way to save poorly exposed shots, even if the success rate when doing so is much higher than when shooting jpg.

Shooting raw means having access to all the data the sensor captured, which of course is a major advantage=)

But forme the advantage with raw simply is that all the steps in the post processing can be done in the ideal order.

First, white balance finetuning.
Second, exposure finetuning. (not always so subtle either I assure you)
Third, rotation and cropping.
Four, converting to tif.
Five, Noise reduction.
Six, capture sharpening

Seven-onehundred and fourteen or wahtever needed, creative post processing including reducing red

Onehundred and fifteen, resize for intended output.
Output sharpening.
Save.

If I need a jpg, the last save will be the first time jpg artifacts will enter the picture (pun intended)

So, raw have more than the obvious advantages, all to the price of a little hard drive space which is almost free...

Cheers
--
Anders

Some of my pictures can be seen at;
http://teamexcalibur.se/US/usindex.html

event photography and photo journalism

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

Any results from aRGB?

segarci1 · Sep 20, 2006

Read ccarrier's posts... I think his method essentially does the same thing that I'm suggesting below, but staying within NC rather than resorting to NV.... save to JPG with an sRGB default space selected. Good to hear about another option.

segarci1 said:
My observations on blown reds vs. color spaces vs. conversion
options are identical to yours... but let me add one more wrinkle:

If I save a NEF in aRGB and then use Nikon View to convert to sRGB
JPG, the results are ok... they pretty much match my color-managed
aRGB preview.

So... all because of blown reds... I stay in aRGB all throughout my
flow except for the last step of conversion to JPG, for which I use
Nikon View.

--
sg

--
sg

THKTHK · Sep 20, 2006

but D50 seems to be pretty much the same, and it has Imatest for both modes:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D50/D50IMATEST.HTM

sRGB, Mode I

Adobe RGB has much more accurate reds:

--
Henrik

THKTHK · Sep 20, 2006

when I first used aRGB on my D70, also noticed the deep green grass in our backyard to be more yellowish. It looked nice, more warm, liked it - but to tell the truth, sRGB was closer to reality in that aspect.

Now there is explanation for that as well: you can see a little more shift of deeper greens towards yellow on the D50 aRGB Imatest

--
Henrik

kevm14 · Sep 20, 2006

Would it be a valid assumption to assume that the aRGB results for the D70s would show a similar improvement in the reds as it did on the D50?

Blown reds & Adobe RGB

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