Should Canon make DSLR with on-body IS?

I can not wait to get one. Right now I am thinking about switching to Pentax.

I can not afford 17-55f2.8 IS. My 50mm, 85mm prime need IS too. There is no Canon IS lens on these, even if you have the money.

For these people against in-body IS. Would you like to have in-body IS for you 135mm f2 and 200mm f2.8? 70-200f2.8 IS is expensive and heavy.

Canon is charging about $600 for IS with 70-200 f4. Is that crazy? I guess it is not a big deal with people use 1DsII. For me it is.

When I was shotting with my 10-22mm at half dim light. I wish I have In-body IS too. I took 6 shots at 1/6 sec. Only one are decent sharp. I wish it can be sharper. If I have in-body IS, I would get it.

Yes, tripod will be better. But, I don't carry tripod everywhere and at most places in NYC. It is really not convienient to use tripod.

Jun
 
NIkon still doens't do it either and Canon and Nikon are the two
"pro" brands. Does that tell you something?
Nikon and Canon were committed to lens IS when they introduced it while film was the (only) main choice. It was not possible to move the film! With that committment came a very subtantial investment and a large lens lineup with this feature. Now that pretty much the world is digital and the technology and the media (CCD) have made in-body IS possible, it may cause a shift in their thinking, but it may be that they are waiting for the market to prove the technology before they jump in.
It does to me but time will tell. I agree that the Nubbie will
think incamera is better and that may cause a shift in thinking.
agreed.

--
Gonzomatic

P e n t a x - the whole gamut
 
Why on earth would Canon want to do this? Right now in-lens IS is a differentiator for them, it helps sell their lenses. If you want lenses with IS, you have to buy from Canon. Yes, they cost more -- Canon lenses ALWAYS cost more that the likes of Vivitar, Tokina, etc.

I am not sure why the 70-200 IS F4 is so expensive compared to the old one, but I doubt that it is the IS since Canon have demonstrated in several cases that they are capable of producing inexpensive lenses with IS.
 
Very clear thinking.

Completely agree. In-body AS should be there for budget limited users and non-supertele prime users. I am in both categries.

Jun
 
I know for a fact (from my pro dealer) that the KM cameras were very prone to developing problems with the AS...quite a few came back for repair.

So all these amateur cameras with AS are far less reliable than their non-AS counterparts. And that will remain to be so. No matter how this system is improved, it will always be a fragile part of the system.

Bottom line for me:

I don't mind as long as Canon/Nikon don't implement it in their semi-pro and pro line cameras.

Theo
Well, they would find problems, wouldn't they - since they seel a
lot of very pricey AS glass and don't offer in-body AS, theya re
hardly liekly to say it is the best thing since sliced bread!
That doesn't mean that there are no problems, or even that in-body
is as good as in-lens stabilisaiton.
 
I think Canon is moving towards in body IS, but I think they are breaking their heads on how to stack the in body IS with lens IS.

My suspicion is that they might do it with one or both of two methods

1) software. i.e. the sensor builds the image via layers. The sensor then also evaluates the layers and arranges them to produce the sharpest result. For instance:
1 layer = 1/(cropped focal length) sec = 1/ (200 x 1.6) = 1/320
shutter speed = 1/15 sec
nr layers = 320/15 = 22

Then the 22 layers will be arranged and cropped to produce the sharpest image.

The disadvantage then will be
  • dark or cropped edges
  • can only reduce minor shake
  • The processing power will be quite demanding
  • Reduction of camera memory for high frame rates and buffers
the advantages
  • stackable with lens IS
  • firmware upgrades for IS (free)
  • intelligent camera system (able to be extended for feature recognition)
  • will be highly accurate if layers are evaluated correctly
but I am not a expert in this department. The manufacturers will probably say that the processing power required will only be available in about 5 years.

2) The second method that Canon and Nikon can go about the IS stacking is to communicate from the lens. Currently Canon and Nikon extract information from the lens (focal length for flash systems). Therefore it may be possible with (relatively) minor upgrades that the lens communicates its IS movement to the sensor. The sensor then adjusts it own intended movement accordingly.

Disadvantages:
  • all IS lenses need reprogramming or modifications to enable camera communication
  • Not likely to obtain very accurate readings from lens movement (sensor may only be able to add one stop of IS to IS lenses)
Advantages:
  • stackable with IS lenses
  • better inbody IS capability with non-IS lenses (meaning the camera IS might only give 1 stop extra to IS lenses, but 3 stops extra to non-IS lenses)
I think that both of these methods could be employed if Canon and Nikon want to stack the IS. If they have other plans or methods then I am sure time will tell.
Do you think that Canon is moving towards Body-IS? I've been
thinking about this and came up with few theories/possibilities I
want to share with you.

As you know, Pentax, Samsung, Sony, and Panasonic (do I miss one?)
all offer on-body IS, which is really tempting. You can even get
the new Pentax K100D for around $600, and get some old good lens
for it, which is a great bargain for DSLR. How do Canon and Nikon
react to this future threat from the agile newcomers? I came up
with two possible scenarios:

1. Canon joins the bandwagon by using body-IS on its next DSLR.
It's good for consumers but somewhat bad for Canon. It might kill
the market for Canon IS lenses, which we all know is Canon's cash
cow. Prices of IS lenses will drop significantly.

2. Canon decides not to include body-IS on next DSLR. Canon might
loose the market for entry-level DSLR to Pentax and the other
newcomers, which is also bad. Even worse, before Canon even knows
it, it's lost significant market share to the DSLR newcomers.

Personally if I were Canon, I would go for #1. Create DSLR with
body-IS. Yes, it'll probably kill the market for IS-lenses but
Canon can secure the market for entry-level DSLR. Now, I said that
it might kill the market for IS-lenses, because professionals
would still go for IS lenses for their 1d/1ds DSLR. If I were a
pro, do I want to use DSLR used by amateurs (even if it has
body-IS)? No. So I think the market for IS-lenses would only
decline, not die.

Failure to join the body-IS DSLR market might create worse
consequence for Canon. It's going to lose significant market for
entry-level DSLRs, which I believe is huge. So, for Canon, make
body-IS for the next xxxD and xxD DSLRs and leave IS-lenses for the
pro.

Just my thoughts. What do you think?

--
Sincerely,
Yohanes N. Mangitung

--
passion to reveal beauty through images
 
yes and in a few years all Canon/nikon cameras will have it, just like the dust-shake feature, lense IS will be for high-end market only.
 
SNIP
I personaly dont want to have a camera
with a sensor that is movable inside the body I am glad these
forums werent around in the 90s when new film cameras were only
introduced every 2-5 years the whining for more features for less
price would of been unreal lol
..personally I would ratehr have a camera wheere the sensro was not rigidly fixed, say it could float on magnetic fields which might help, like the K10D!

Or don't you like suspension in your car either, and prefer the old-fashioned, rigid way of mounting, like in an ox-cart? :-)

Actually, without checking I am not sure if the magnetic fields are switched on, so they might not help at all - I just wanted to make the point that rigid ain't always best!
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
I know for a fact (from my pro dealer) that the KM cameras were
very prone to developing problems with the AS...quite a few came
back for repair.

So all these amateur cameras with AS are far less reliable than
their non-AS counterparts. And that will remain to be so. No matter
how this system is improved, it will always be a fragile part of
the system.
It doesn't actually follow that either the Minolta implementation could not be improved for more reliablity, or that the totally different implementation in the K10D would suffer from similar problems.

Early colour televisons also were more complex than their B & W colleagues, and broke down more often - they will never catch on!

There are a number of other questions that have to be asked before you know if in-body AS is a good thing:
How much is the price premium for in-body AS?
How much less reliable are they, and can this be improved?
What is the premium for in-lens IS on the lenses you want?

Since it only costs an extra $100-150 more for the in-body stabilisation, and many of us will be trading in the bodies anyway after a couple of years or so, then for a lot of us that makes more sense then paying out for the pricy in-lens stabilisation.

KM in thier last days were pretty rubbish at QC anyway, so it should be possible to do better than that!
Bottom line for me:
I don't mind as long as Canon/Nikon don't implement it in their
semi-pro and pro line cameras.

Theo
Well, they would find problems, wouldn't they - since they seel a
lot of very pricey AS glass and don't offer in-body AS, theya re
hardly liekly to say it is the best thing since sliced bread!
That doesn't mean that there are no problems, or even that in-body
is as good as in-lens stabilisaiton.
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
..the price premium of the new lens?
That pretty well answers your question as to why they would release it, I think.

No-one says that Canon will soon introduce in-body stabilisation, or at all if they can get away with it, but they have the technology ready to be implemented if they are forced into it.
Did you see they just announced a 70-200 f4 with IS????

Are you paying attention to what they're doing instead of what you
want them to do?

Why would they bother to do that if they were going to go in-body IS?

Well, I have yet to hear a good answer to this question????
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
In the religious literature from the middle east the analogy of humans and sheep are often made... then modern English usage picked that up as an idiom in every day use...

Setting aside the deeper aspects of the religious/philosophical origins, why has such an idiom found an easy home in modern language usage?

-gt
 
Having seen your previous posts, have you thought of getting a
wimberly head or wimberly sidekick? I'm pretty sure this very nice
tripod head will give you the same if not better tracking ability
IS gives you...
That might help for airplanes but probably not. Having to track
vertically means you have to tip-toe or kneel down to keep your eye
on the viewfinder.

But it doesn't help at all when you are crawling around on the
ground between tables and chairs to get shots like this one:



That was 3-stops below 1/f and already at f2.8 and ISO 800. I
would have needed about ISO 6400 to get that shot without IS.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
Interestingly, Canon in their 'futures' paper talk about routinely using ISO6400 - that appears to be thier plan rather than in-body IS.
Nice trick if they can pull it off!

I was under the impression that there weren't enough photons about for that sort of thing.....
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
How much less reliable are they, and can this be improved?
This is a very relevant question. The answer is probably that a long-term reliable in-body IS will not come cheap. If lens stabilization still remains superior both functionally and because it also stabilizes the viewfinder image, the argument in favor of in-body IS will be weaker.
Since it only costs an extra $100-150 more for the in-body
stabilisation, and many of us will be trading in the bodies anyway
after a couple of years or so, then for a lot of us that makes
more sense then paying out for the pricy in-lens stabilisation.
KM in thier last days were pretty rubbish at QC anyway, so it
should be possible to do better than that!
If some products were rubbish, there certainly is no reason to be content with improvements based on that low standard.

Seriously: Some of us, and probably a good number among those who chose 30D and up want built-in reliability with swithes, buttons and mechanisms that are designed to withstand many years of rather heavy use.

Let those who want consumer class bodies get their in-body IS. But please let the higher end cameras be constructed with long-term reliability in mind.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
 
Well reliability can be designed and built into products. It is still way way way cheaper to pay $300 for in body pro-IS than to pay $200+ per llens. Body IS is a good competitive idea against Canon and Nikon. I like my 20D but I love to see Canon really respond to this direct hit at their IS lens dominance. Its like more pixels, its not a must but why not have more. So why not get body IS so my 50/1.4 has some IS functions. The best wil lbe my 70-200/4L having IS without paying double!
 
other people on here who sees the benefit of IS for wide angle shooting.

I agree with you on that! If I could have IS on my 10-22, I'd pay for it!

It's great to not need a tripod. It's a simple as that. I don't think tripods are used exclusively for telephoto shooting, so I don't think that IS should be restricted to telephoto lenses.

To me, there are a lot of situations where IS on a wide lens would be very welcome.

But just wait. Someone will get on here and put us in our places for suggesting that IS would be handy on a wide angle lens. I guess they know better, and we shouldn't want it because they don't :)

But from what I've read, IS works better when it can be done in the lens. The amount of shake that can be corrected is far greater for in-lens IS than for in-body IS.

So while I'd like to have effective IS for my wide lenses, I'm not sure that in-body IS will ever be as good as in-lens IS. And so, I guess I'd just like to see Canon put IS in wide lenses. And they sometimes do. The 17-85 IS and the 17-55 IS are examples of moderately wide lenses that have IS. And I am thankful for them :)

--
Jim H.
 
There are a vast number of terms in modern English which have little relevance to current life, many of them nautical in origin.

For instance, not having 'room to swing a cat' is of little current relevance, since floggings are fairly unusual, outside of the pages of 'The News of the World', but it still has currency.

My guess of the provenance of analogies of sheep and shepherds is that printing, literacy and Protestantism led in the 17th century to English translations of the Bible.

At that time most people in the British Isles were engaged in agriculture, and tales of shepherds would have been as instantly comprehensible and recognisable to them as to their middle eastern predecessors a few centuries before.

It has remained useful since for those who wish to disparage the choices of others without going to the effort of dealing with their arguments, since sheep are a synonym for stupidity!

Later on
In the religious literature from the middle east the analogy of
humans and sheep are often made... then modern English usage picked
that up as an idiom in every day use...

Setting aside the deeper aspects of the religious/philosophical
origins, why has such an idiom found an easy home in modern
language usage?

-gt
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
Oh, I agree completely that they have the technology. But, Sony and Pentax have a long way to go before they force Canon or Nikon to do anything. The impact to lens sales will be enomous. Suddenly all third party lenses have IS and a major competitive advantage goes away.

PLUS - and don't forget this - the existing in-body IS technology as we know it won't work for full frame and possibly not for the 1.3 crop sensors.

So, since canon has committed to a line of full frame cameras that would force THOSE users to buy premium priced IS lenses which again might keep people from buying the full frame cameras.

So, it remains to be seen if Sony and compnay can capture enough market share to force Canon and Nikon to do anthing (and Nikon keeps popping out VR lenses so I put them in the same camp as Canon - not showing any signs of going in-body).
 

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