Lenses! Please, more NORMAL lenses!

BTW I am going to compare my new pentax 77/1.8 to
canon 85/1.2L in the near future. hehe
Well, the "opponent" of the "portraiture" 85/1.2 would be the FA* or A* 85/1.4. The 77 is close in technical specs, but a different animal...
But the test will be intersting, nevertheless.

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
http://www.jensroesner.de/
 
Royson,

I sometimes cannot believe what is happening around here.

There comes a nice guy (you), selling cameras as his full-time job. And among those cameras, quite some Pentaxs. He tells us what the average consumer (and not some gear head on an internet forum) wants and then he has to face all sorts of "know it all better" antagonism because he openly addresses Pentax's problem.

You raise some valid points!

Looking at how well superzoom compact cameras with equivalent focal lengths beyond 350mm sell, I can imagine your customers really want a 70-300 and not a 50-200.

Other lenses could be useful, too: For example I suggest a 20-120 lens to compete with Sigma's 18-125. By going from 7x to 6x, Pentax could improve on the issues of the 18-125. If Nikon can do a VR 18-125, then Pentax can do a 20-120. Such a lens would match well with the 12-24, too. I also hope for the Tokina-rebranded DFA 80-400 for the tele end.

What we have now is good, but not enough. Pentax has more limited resources than N&C and considering this, they do really well.
Jens

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
http://www.jensroesner.de/
 
It seems to me that sensitivity to shake has more to do with
angle-of-view than actual focal length. If 300mm was the
hand-holding limit for 35mm, then 200mm is the new handholding
limit.
Well I actually do not agree here. Smaller sensor works as a crop and from the point of shake sensitivity it is not important whether the size of sensor is 24 or 36mm or 48mm or whatever. The physical size of subject on recording media is the same and also the same is it movement during camera shake, no matter what the size of the media is.

However, I think at least theoretically it is possible that for example 10MP sensor camera is more sensitive to shaking than 6MP sensor, because it resolves finer detail and fine details get blurred faster, i.e. smaller sensor elements cause the difference. So can digital sensor be a little bit more sensitive than average film. I'm not sure that this is practical problem, most probably not.
If the FoV is the same, then the sensitivity to lens movement would
be the same--if you move the lens 0.25 degrees of that 8.1 degree
angle of view, the subject will move approximately the same
relative amount across your field of view and sensor, wouldn't it?
Same FoV on film and crop sensor mean different physical subject size on film and sensor, so it is not the same, if I understood correctly what you meant.

I personally do not like cheap xx-300 zooms, I just thought about the situation in camera store (initial message in this thread) and tried to understand this. And the fact that 50-200 on APS-C has about the same FoV as 70-300 has on the film camera (or call it full frame if you like) does not mean that 70-300 is not usable on APS-C or something. Higher sensitivity and SR make it even more usable, actually. 300mm focal length is not limit because people do not want more, longer was simply not practical. I absolutly like that pentax has 50-200 which is really small and good quality lens.

I'm not native speaker so please excuse me if my explenation was not very clear.
 
It seems to me that sensitivity to shake has more to do with
angle-of-view than actual focal length. If 300mm was the
hand-holding limit for 35mm, then 200mm is the new handholding
limit.
Well I actually do not agree here. Smaller sensor works as a crop
and from the point of shake sensitivity it is not important whether
the size of sensor is 24 or 36mm or 48mm or whatever. The physical
size of subject on recording media is the same and also the same is
it movement during camera shake, no matter what the size of the
media is.
I disagree with your disagreement :-). If you put a full frame camera on a tripod, take a picture, and then swap with a crop camera, but use the same lens, what will you get? The crop photo will just show the center portion of the full-frame photo. So when you print both photos at the same size, the crop factor acts just like a magnification. That means any camera shake is magnified by exactly the same factor.

David
 
You're dead on about the super-zoom compacts. The people who come into my store looking for a dSLR are often looking for something that will blow away the compact superzoom they have or their friends have. The Sigma 70-300 3.5-5.6 (in any mount) is easily our best selling lens once they learn about the 1.5/1.6x FOV crop.

Now that Pentax now offers inbody SR, the usefullness of these lenses has multiplied. The K100D meters the in-store lighting with the 70-300 for 1/60s in program mode at ISO 800 (@450mm equiv). Most of the people that demo that combination are able to get a blur-free shot. Not so with the C* and N* bodies with the same lens.

Although, we do have stock left of the FA 80-320. When I started at the store a year ago, we had 3, now we have 2. This may be why Pentax has shyed away from this range. It doesn't help that the Sigma is $70 cheaper AND has a 1:2 macro mode.

Most of the 50-200s we sell are for people about to go on vacation who want the smallest combo possible. Otherwise...they would go for the 70-300.

In the end, I think Pentax is content to let the 3rd party manufacturers take the long tele-zoom market. Hopefully they will realize the goldmine the are missing out on.
--
Kurt B.
 
David is right about that. 100mm is not longer 1/100 (rule of thumb) but 1/150 second.

For the other thing, a 10MP camera is more sensitive to camera shake than a 6MP camera, in real life. This was discussed a lot when the D200 came and many said the rule of thumb ha dto be changed again: a 100mm lens now needs 1/200 second.

And yes, with SR that can sometimes be a good picture also at 1/50 or so, but the result may not be totally predictable. Take many pictures, in other words.

--
Jonas
 
300mm on film is the same as 200mm on APS-C. Crop factor affects not only FOV but also and tendency to get shaked image.

On FF for 300mm you should avoid shutter speeds lower than 1/300, if you put that 300mm lense on APS-C you should avoid shutter speed lower than 1/450.

So, with 200mm on APS-C you get exactly the same (including capability to hand-hold) what you get with 300mm on FF.
 
It seems to me that sensitivity to shake has more to do with
angle-of-view than actual focal length. If 300mm was the
hand-holding limit for 35mm, then 200mm is the new handholding
limit.
Well I actually do not agree here. Smaller sensor works as a crop
and from the point of shake sensitivity it is not important whether
the size of sensor is 24 or 36mm or 48mm or whatever. The physical
size of subject on recording media is the same and also the same is
it movement during camera shake, no matter what the size of the
media is.
Well, the physical size of the recording medium is not the same between 35mm film and APS-C sensor. But the image recorded and presented on any given size print, say 8x12", will be the same size for both, assuming no cropping. Now lets assume a fixed shaking magnitude for the camera body, say 1mm for arguments sake, which stays constant for either type camera. For film, the shaking would amount to 1mm/24mm*100% = 4.2% of the height of the image . For APS-C sized sensor, the shaking would amount to 1mm/16mm*100% = 6.3% of the image height. So you can clearly see that the sensor size plays a DIRECT role in the impact of camera shake on the sharpness of the picture. For any given lens focal length, the ratio of shake percentage is 1.5x for APSC vs film. So logically it follows that the minimum shutter speed would also be a factor of 1.5x from film to APSC. Logic does not lie.
However, I think at least theoretically it is possible that for
example 10MP sensor camera is more sensitive to shaking than 6MP
sensor, because it resolves finer detail and fine details get
blurred faster, i.e. smaller sensor elements cause the difference.
So can digital sensor be a little bit more sensitive than average
film. I'm not sure that this is practical problem, most probably
not.
Yes I agree with you here. However, for any given print size (say 8x12"), the magtidue of the blurring will remain the same. The difference would be much more noticeable when comparing the same pixel density, say 300 dpi. Here the 10MP would show more shake than a 6MP, due to more of the smaller pixels being blurred by the shaking.
If the FoV is the same, then the sensitivity to lens movement would
be the same--if you move the lens 0.25 degrees of that 8.1 degree
angle of view, the subject will move approximately the same
relative amount across your field of view and sensor, wouldn't it?
Same FoV on film and crop sensor mean different physical subject
size on film and sensor, so it is not the same, if I understood
correctly what you meant.

I personally do not like cheap xx-300 zooms, I just thought about
the situation in camera store (initial message in this thread) and
tried to understand this. And the fact that 50-200 on APS-C has
about the same FoV as 70-300 has on the film camera (or call it
full frame if you like) does not mean that 70-300 is not usable on
APS-C or something. Higher sensitivity and SR make it even more
usable, actually. 300mm focal length is not limit because people do
not want more, longer was simply not practical. I absolutly like
that pentax has 50-200 which is really small and good quality lens.

I'm not native speaker so please excuse me if my explenation was
not very clear.
I also agree that good high ISO performance and SR will make a dramatic improvement on the usefullness of something like a 70-300/5.6 or 6.3 lens. I really look forward to getting the K10, so I can get more use out of my Sigma 70-300 and my Tokina 80-400.

But I also think that when someone who is new to DSLR asks about a telephoto zoom lens, the salesman should educate them on the sensor crop factor and the effect of camera shake on image quality. I have seen many people buy high zoom P&S cameras, only to complain bitterly that their images are not sharp when zooming past 4x or 5x or so. I wonder why 3x has become the standard optical zoom on all these P&S cameras? Maybe becuase it results in sharp images most of the time?
 
Hi,

Pentax don't need to build this lens because the kit is already so good. I suppose if the kit weren't astonishingly sharp at 50mm, there would be a need. But the kit costs around 100 bucks if you buy it with the body, and you get 18mm as a free bonus. Building a 50mm 1.8 so cheaply that it wasn't as good as the kit would be pretty pointless, imho. They are right to stick with the kit and the 1.4, having a cheap and very good 50mm 1.4 is a good reason to go Pentax. If they also had a 1.7 or 1.8 in the lineup, they would no longer sell enough of the 1.4 to keep the price where it is. It's a small company. They don't have the volume to produce unlimited different lens models. You need to supplement with 3rd party glass at some spots. The lack of a fast, inexpensive "normal" (30-35mm) prime is certainly a sore spot, but maybe that's on the list for 2007. 50mm, however, is not somewhere they are hurting.

Matt
 
Pentax only makes the best and the least expensive 50/1.4 lens on the market, the FA50/1.4. And right now with rebates (US ONLY) it is only $170!!! I defy you to show me a comparable Nikon or Canon 50/1.4 for that price. It is have the price of the Canon 50/1.4 and $100 less than the Nikon.
OK. But having the least expensive 1.4 doesn't make up for the
fact they lack a less expensive alternative. We sell dozens of
Canon 50mm 1.8 lenses (under $100) per year, and less than a
handful of 1.4s.
The Canon 50/1.8 is a very unique lens. It's way cheaper than anything else in their lineup (quite a few Canon lens hoods are more expensive), and with a build quality to match (though it's quite good optically). It's a big seller simply because it's so very cheap, and it has gotten a (probably deserved) reputation as cheap and cheerful - a lens you can play with to your hearts content without fear of breaking it. It's a "gateway" prime; the first prime lens many people buy, and the lens that convinces quite a few people that primes, not zooms, really are what they're more comfortable with.

But note that it's relly made for 35mm, and works as a short tele on APS cameras, and Canon have shown no willingness of coming out with anything similar in the 30mm range. It doesn't actually fit the rest of the Canon lineup or current bodies, but has all the feeling of an old design that's so cheap to produce by now they just keep doing so until the tooling wears out.

And the Pentax 1.4 is plenty cheap enough already.
If you were really selling Pentax to customers, you would sell them the kit lens plus the DA50-200 and this would make 95% of your customers happy.
Pentax was our #1 DSLR line in August, and we did OK with the
50-200. But having a quality 200mm zoom in no way makes up for not
having a 300mm zoom. Offer the customers what they want. E.G.,
Canon offers 5 70ish-300 zooms, along with their 55-200.
Canon offers 70-300 for their 35mm lineup. A 50-200ish lens is the equivalent (and makes better sense) on APS.

That said, Pentax in general is comparatively weak on long lenses - just as Canon is weak on the wide end (and especially primes). Pentax really doesn't have a lineup matching the 400/2.8, 600/f4 (or the 1200/f4 if you want to be extreme); Canon has nothing at all like the wonderful pancake lenses on the other hand.

Companies focus on what they do best, and get customers that agree with their direction. Absent any nasty surprises woth the K10, I'll be leaving Canon for Pentax this winter, precisely because the Pentax' lens lineup fits my usage pattern better than Canon's.

--
Japan: http://www.lucs.lu.se/people/jan.moren/log/current.html
Images: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jannem/
 
75-300? That's a very long zoom range, and it can't be a decent lens.

Pentax has a 50-200, supposedly really good but I'd put the limit at 4x for a zoom, and even then I'd be careful of distortion. Somehow the 16-45 manages to perform almost like a prime, but it's an unusually excellent lens. I guess I'd have to sat the same for the 12-24, it's one incredable lens, but notice that it's a 2x zoom. Easier to control.

If you GAVE me a lens like a 75-300, I wouldn't use it anyway!
--
'We have met the enemy, and he is us!
 
...and that's the beauty: with anti-shake you can use smaller apertures.
 
I have a Sigma 75-300 that someone gave me as a gift. They meant well. Some salesman probably sold it to them by telling them "300mm!!! what a bargin!!!" I haven't gotten rid of it yet, I use it in situations where I don't care if it gets banged around because frankly, the lens bites it. It's ok up to about 175-200mm after that it is too soft to be useable. And it's big and heavy. I'm past the point where I'm trying to impress people with the size of my lenses. To be truthful, I'm glad that pentax doesn't make a cheap 70-300. It's nice to see that they've go the integrity not to do that. Rather than buying another semi useable 70-300, I think I'll make do with the 50-200 and wait for the 300 f4 due out sometime in 2007.

east(I'd rather have less good than more junk)saltwater
 
I think some of the replies to Royson58's comment are missing the point. The average consumer does not understand lense quality. When shopping for cameras what they will understand is a 70-300mm lense will give them a bigger zoom compare to the Pentax's 50-200, therefore the 70-300 is the better lense.

It doesn't matter to the consumer that the 50-200 is equivalent to 70-300 in 35mm terms, or that a lense with such a large zoom range is going to be less good then one with a smaller zoom range.

Having the right consumer lenses in the line up helps sell cameras to consumers. Ditto.

My 2 cents worth
First, let me preface that I'm a camera salesman. We do very well
with the Pentax K100D, but unfortunately, it pretty much ends there
for the Pentax SLR owner. The K10D is a very attractive camera,
but now the real weakness of the line shows through:

Some designer in charge of lenses at Pentax doesn't use cameras,
and he surely doesn't retail them!

Currently, Pentax doesn't have a 75-300 in black finish available.
The old one (probably made by Tamron), is gone. Yet we see all
these weird lenses that no one, I mean NO ONE ask for in our store.

Get a 75-300 (even if it's a temporary waiting for a USM type).
Get a cheap 50mm 1.7 (yep, I show the Rep the sales of the Canon 50
f1.8...several dozen a year). Etc.

I'm sure 99% of readers on this site could cut the Pentax lineup
down to a dozen lenses total...and double Pentax lens sales.
 
Well I actually do not agree here. Smaller sensor works as a crop
and from the point of shake sensitivity it is not important whether
the size of sensor is 24 or 36mm or 48mm or whatever. The physical
size of subject on recording media is the same and also the same is
it movement during camera shake, no matter what the size of the
media is.
Well, the physical size of the recording medium is not the same
between 35mm film and APS-C sensor. But the image recorded and
presented on any given size print, say 8x12", will be the same size
for both, assuming no cropping. Now lets assume a fixed shaking
magnitude for the camera body, say 1mm for arguments sake, which
stays constant for either type camera. For film, the shaking would
amount to 1mm/24mm*100% = 4.2% of the height of the image . For
APS-C sized sensor, the shaking would amount to 1mm/16mm*100% =
6.3% of the image height. So you can clearly see that the sensor
size plays a DIRECT role in the impact of camera shake on the
sharpness of the picture. For any given lens focal length, the
ratio of shake percentage is 1.5x for APSC vs film. So logically
it follows that the minimum shutter speed would also be a factor of
1.5x from film to APSC. Logic does not lie.
Ok, that might work in practice, really ;)
 
Its all down to the NUMBERS.

I gotta have 10 megapixies, even though I dunno what they are, I gotta have a monitor that does 1600x1440 even though I can't read anything on it, I need a projection TV even though my lounge is 3 meters square, I really NEED 12 megapixels now, because Cakon have just invented one, I want a HDTV even though nobody broadcasts it, erm erm, oh YEAH, I need that new Ninon 28-420 zoom lens cos it must be better than the 38-380 lens on my Dimage, erm erm. I need a 4gig high speed memory card even though I take 10 pictures a day, always landscapes, (and so on)

That's it, sorted, now I can put all my heavy junk in the back of my 8 seater 4x4 SUV, which I bought even though my kids have all left home, then when we get to wherever we are going, my wife will use her 3mp 3x zoom P&S and take better pictures than me.

Sadly, some of this applies to me...
 
Hi Dana!
75-300? That's a very long zoom range,
Not really. Depends on what you call "long".
and it can't be a decent lens.
Depends on your definition of decent. In my book, it's easily decent.
Pentax has a 50-200, supposedly really good but I'd put the limit
at 4x for a zoom, and even then I'd be careful of distortion.
You know that 75-300 is exactly 4x? You know that if you take a 75-200 and resize it by 1/1.5 in all dimensions you would get a 50-200?
I guess I'd have to sat the same for
the 12-24, it's one incredable lens,
It has a few shortcomings, but it's nice.
but notice that it's a 2x zoom. Easier to control.
It is an ultrawide zoom. 2x is plenty for an ultrawide to wide zoom.
If you GAVE me a lens like a 75-300, I wouldn't use it anyway!
Then give it to me, I'd like a smaller companion to my Tokina 80-400. Oh wait, it is a 5x zoom, it must be really really bad then! And this must mean I am really really stupid (or just blind?) to like this lens?

Jens

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
http://www.jensroesner.de/
--=! Condemning proprietary batteries since 1976 !=--
 
David is right about that. 100mm is not longer 1/100 (rule of
thumb) but 1/150 second.

For the other thing, a 10MP camera is more sensitive to camera
shake than a 6MP camera, in real life. This was discussed a lot
when the D200 came and many said the rule of thumb ha dto be
changed again: a 100mm lens now needs 1/200 second.
...which of course is due to people "pixel peeping" - zooming in to see individual piels, regardless of what resolution/distance the image will actually be viewed on.

For instance, on my perticular computer, at my normal working distance (it's a laptop), when I zoom in to 1:1 view of an image from my 8mp 350D (3456 pixels wide), and lean forward to check sharpness, I am doing the equivalent of looking at a 1.2 meter wide and 0.8 meter high poster at a distance of about 15 cm.

At one point, people will have to come to grips with the idea that sharpness is not an absolute, but completely dependent on how you use or display the image. For instance, I use my images mostly online, where they are rarely seen at a resolution higher than about 1024x768. Effectively, I can have everything blurred across three pixels, and it will not be visible at all once I display the image.

And whether I use a 6mp K100, an 8mp 350D or a 10mp K10, the sensor size, and the display size is the same, meaning for me (with these parameters fixed, by my usage), the rule of thumb remains at about 1/ (1.5*focal length) despite higher resolution.

--
Japan: http://www.lucs.lu.se/people/jan.moren/log/current.html
Images: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jannem/
 

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