Anyone surprised the M8 isn't a 4/3's camera?

AlanG · Sep 14, 2006

The Kodak SLR/n, SLR/c and 14n used a full frame sensor made by Fill Factory, not by Kodak. People wondered about that choice at the time and still do. I have no proof, but I would imagine the Kodak sensor in the new Leica is very good or they couldn't release the M8.
--
Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com

nickleback · Sep 14, 2006

Wildson said:
so wondering if it's ass bad ass it was then...

I'm not sure if you mean "as bad as", i.e. it is bad, or "as bad ass", i.e. it's totally awesome.

But at any rate the sensor in the SLR/n was not made by Kodak. It was made by Fill Factory, which was bought out by Cypress:

http://www.cypress.com/portal/server.pt?space=CommunityPage&control=SetCommunity&CommunityID=209&PageID=215&gid=12&fid=206&category=All&showall=false

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

nickleback · Sep 14, 2006

AlanG said:
The Kodak SLR/n, SLR/c and 14n used a full frame sensor made by
Fill Factory, not by Kodak. People wondered about that choice at
the time and still do.

It's simple: cost.

AlanG said:
I have no proof, but I would imagine the
Kodak sensor in the new Leica is very good or they couldn't release
the M8.

Similar sensor (same manufacturer, same pixel pitch) to Leica DMR, Hassy H2D39 and Oly E1.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

Gene E. McCluney · Sep 14, 2006

Wildson said:
so wondering if it's ass bad ass it was then...

I change to Canon from Kodak and here fast made rasons why...

http://seos.tv/kodak/

What you had (and I have currently) in the Pro SLR/n is a Full Frame sensor without microlenses or AA filter made by FILL FACTORY and purchased by Kodak for the 14/n SLR/n and SLR/c camera. It is NOT MADE by Kodak, and it was a CMOS design. It is believed that Kodak purchased this sensor in order to keep the costs down on the final camera. All indications observed by me at the time of theses cameras release would indicate that Kodak wanted to position this camera (price wise) somewhere under the Canon Ids series, yet offer at the time "more" resolution (13.9mp compared to 11mp) It is just fine for my applications which are studio and daylight location work.

The sensor in the Leica M8 is a MADE BY KODAK CCD sensor with offset microlenses specifically designed to work for rangefinder applications, but otherwise like the Kodak CCD sensor in the Leica DMR back for the R8-R9 series of SLR cameras. Kodak sensors are used in many of the highest-quality most expensive digital backs for medium-format cameras. You shouldn't even think about comparing the "Fill Factory" budget sensor to real KODAK manufactured sensors.

Dana199162 · Sep 14, 2006

Nope... That sensot in a Leica M would have meant ALL new lenses and a big multiplication factor. Bleah.

I have an E-500, and it's fine, but it's not a rangefinder.
--
Dana Curtis Kincaid
http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com

Olympus E500
Minolta Scan Dual IV film scanner
Contax G1
Contax G2
Contax 167MT
Sony V1
Fuji 2800z
Sony Video Cameras
Canon S9000
Epson 820

Apple PowerMac Dual 2GHz G5

Dana199162 · Sep 14, 2006

You need to chill. The whole tone of your post is negative.

Joe0Bloggs said:
Glen Barrington said:

I expected APS or 4/3's. Instead, it appears to be a NEW format
produced by Kodak especially for Leica. In effect, Leica said
niether 4/3s or APS is good enough!

Click to expand...

Well, most people expected a full frame sensor. A 1.3x crop still
isn't good enough for most existing Leica users. The 1.3x crop BTW
is also used in Canon.

Does Leica have any dealings with 4/3rds that I don't know of? Oh
yes, they've rebranded a Panasonic 4/3rds camera. That's very
different from them developing their own 4/3rds cameras...

Joe0Bloggs said:

BUT I think this leica announcement might throw a new economic
factor into the format 'wars'. Could this be the photographic
equivalent of if IBM producing their first PC?

Click to expand...

Try Non-Linear Systems releasing their first Kaypro II, or
something even more obscure if you can think of one...
http://oldcomputers.net/kayproii.html

The IBMs of camera companies had released their first PC years ago...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond1/

Joe0Bloggs said:

Will we see other,
manufacturers, (say, Pentax/Samsung, or Rollie. Or maybe even
Concorde, Sigma, or even mainland Chinese manufacturers) adopt that
'standard' in order to pick up some free legitamacy and/or 'mind
share'?

Click to expand...

All I see is Leica releasing their first digital camera for a lens
mount that until now only had 35mm film cameras, and doing so with
a sensor that is less than full frame. Same as Canon, Nikon and
just about everybody else has already done years ago.

Joe0Bloggs said:

I mean the phrase, "it's got the SAME 10 meg chip in that Leica
does!" is going to carry some serious weight with the great
unwashed public. And since they are never going to do anything but
snapshots anyway, they'l never know the difference. And if a GOOD
manufacturer like Pentax or Rollie or Cosina builds a camera around
it, who knows, the phrase may actually mean something.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this.
--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'

Click to expand...

There are dozens of 10mp sensors floating around, what makes the
sensor that Leica uses special? And even the unwashed public knows
Leica only for its lenses (featured prominently in Panasonic
cameras), not sensors.
If somebody managed to start sourcing Canon CMOS sensors, I think
you may really see the effect you're talking about.

--
Dana Curtis Kincaid
http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com

Olympus E500
Minolta Scan Dual IV film scanner
Contax G1
Contax G2
Contax 167MT
Sony V1
Fuji 2800z
Sony Video Cameras
Canon S9000
Epson 820

Apple PowerMac Dual 2GHz G5

Greg Erker · Sep 14, 2006

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
There's no way to match that with current DSLRs. The closest you
can get is a compact Pentax 1.5x crop with that new 70mm f2.5 on
the front page of dpReview today to replace the 105mm f2.8, their
pancake 43mm is a bit long for a "normal", and you're really stuck
on the wide.
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

The new 21mm f3.2 Limited should fit the bill for the wide. No tiny super-wide from Pentax (yet?).

Greg

Wildson · Sep 14, 2006

nickleback said:
Wildson said:

so wondering if it's ass bad ass it was then...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you mean "as bad as", i.e. it is bad, or "as bad
ass", i.e. it's totally awesome.

any way I had nothing but errors, "image was not saved", etc. look

http://seos.tv/kodak/kodak3.html

dealer said there is nothing wrong with it, I called many times... it's maeby memory card, try another (same card are working now in canon) it was once in service, nothing happend and I called to service agian and the called back after few day's my warranity was over and they said it will cost about 5000 euros to fix it up. And we admit that it's broken... So that's stright from ASS.

nickleback said:
But at any rate the sensor in the SLR/n was not made by Kodak. It
was made by Fill Factory, which was bought out by Cypress:

that was not told by anybody, untill now, not dealer, not Kodak (I sent some mail to them and got back some answers...)

nickleback · Sep 14, 2006

Wildson said:
nickleback said:

Wildson said:

so wondering if it's ass bad ass it was then...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you mean "as bad as", i.e. it is bad, or "as bad
ass", i.e. it's totally awesome.

Click to expand...

any way I had nothing but errors, "image was not saved", etc. look

OK, so it is "bad as"

Wildson said:
Wildson said:

But at any rate the sensor in the SLR/n was not made by Kodak. It
was made by Fill Factory, which was bought out by Cypress:

Click to expand...

that was not told by anybody, untill now, not dealer, not Kodak (I
sent some mail to them and got back some answers...)

It was hardly a secret. Here's a post that is almost 4 years old:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1026&message=3643131&q=fill+factory+14n&qf=m

But regardless, it is what it is. High ISO is definitely not that sensor's forte. But from other problems, sounds like you got a lemon.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

Jack knox · Sep 14, 2006

Joe0Bloggs said:
most people expected a full frame sensor.

I wouldn't think so, since Leica already about a year ago announced that there would be a crop factor of 1.3.

Glen Barrington · Sep 14, 2006

Joe is well known as a hot head. Most of us assume that due to poor upbringing, he simply doesn't know how to bring up a difference of opinion in a poistive, civilized manner!
--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'

carl-martin decker · Sep 14, 2006

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Glen Barrington said:

I expected APS or 4/3's. Instead, it appears to be a NEW format
produced by Kodak especially for Leica. In effect, Leica said
niether 4/3s or APS is good enough!

Click to expand...

Of course four-thirds (tm) isn't good enough.

Four-thirds is a screw-up on a grand scale. Olympus correctly
identified a problem: "existing film SLR wide angle lenses don't
work well with existing sensors, because of problems with the angle
at which light strikes the sensor".

Well, if sensors and lenses aren't compatible, there are two
obvious solutions: fix the lenses or fix the sensors.

So Oly decided to fix the lens. The big problem was that they not
only decided to fix it, they applied a policy of massive overkill.

I think the four thirds standard either has (a) one more goal which is not published, and which requires telecentricity. For example 3-CCD cameras or whatever.

Or (b) you are right and the telectricity is not necessary in that amount. Then this is one thing that can be fixed: Simply weaken the telecentricity specification of the standard slowly. The old lenses will continue to work, so thats no problem for the users.

Glen Barrington · Sep 14, 2006

BJL said:
Glen Barrington said:

In effect, Leica said neither 4/3s or APS is good enough!

Click to expand...

Leica said today that 4/3 both is and is not good enough, depending
on your purpose.

Leica suggests that 4/3 and APS-C (1.5x or 1.6x crops) are not good
enough to get good value out of existing Leica M rangefinder lenses
designed for 35mm format: the smaller crop factor 1.33 (3/4 size)
is better for that purpose.

But Leica also says that 4/3 is good enough for a new digital SLR
format with new lenses, by having introduced a 4/3 format Digilux 3
SLR to go with the Leica/Panasonic 4/3 format 14-50/2.8-3.5 OIS
lens.

Well didn't Leica really jsut say that the Panasonic is good enough to rebadge so long as everyone knows it's really NOT a Leica?

BJL said:
BJL said:

Up till now, I've been somewhat sanguine about the future of 4/3s,

Click to expand...

and yet Leica's introducing its first 4/3 body today changed your
mind?

Sanquine means 'at peace' with the whole thing. And I am. I like my E500, so I don't care what the rest of the world buys.

But no, the Digilux 3 doesn't really move me much in any direction. Marketing this camera with a red dot attached doesn't really say much about the camera itself or the future of 4:3s, or even Leica's commitment to the 4:3s system. I remind you before they rebadged Panasonic cameras they rebadged Fuji cameras. How well are THEY supported?

I'm not trying to be negative here. Just realistic. In effect, Leica said, 'our creative energies and our serious money is NOT going into 4/3s'. Do I think it is a disaster for 4/3s? No, but it isn't exact;y a triumph either.

--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'

BJL · Sep 14, 2006

Why does Leica's decision to offer backward compatibility with its 35mm format manual focus rangefinder lens system have anything whatever to do with the prospects for FourThirds? Nobody is adopting 4/3" sensor format for use with 35mm film format lenses, for reasons that should be obvious: the 2x crop of the image formed by those lenses.

FourThirds format is not intended for backward compatibility with 35mm film camera lenses: it is designed for customers who are starting from scratch with new lenses designed for the new format. with a majority of DSLR buyers now never having owned a 35mm film SLR, that is an adequate target market. Not capturing the far tinier number of Leica M lens owners is hardly a worry for Olympus or FourThirds.

bosjohn · Sep 14, 2006

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Definitely. Kodak gave Leica the offset microlens sensor I've been
advocating for years. It's the first fairly small camera with a
fairly large sensor (1.33x) to use fairly small lenses (Leica
rangefinder primes).

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

--Out of curiosity is it possible to make a flexable sensor that could change its shape with different lenses bayonetted on the camera? that is to say a compound curved sensor that would flatten out for telly and curl for wide so as to maintain the ange more precicly for a wide range of focal lengths or perhapes even be electronicly coupled to a zoom to do this change.

I am not sure it can be done but it would soleve the problems around the edges? Just a thought I had
bosjohn aka John Shick [email protected]

nickleback · Sep 14, 2006

carl-martin decker said:
I think the four thirds standard either has (a) one more goal which
is not published, and which requires telecentricity. For example
3-CCD cameras or whatever.

Oh brother, not 3-CCD again! This has been flogged to death. Executive summary: horrible idea.

carl-martin decker said:
Or (b) you are right and the telectricity is not necessary in that
amount. Then this is one thing that can be fixed: Simply weaken the
telecentricity specification of the standard slowly.

Or quickly. I'm pretty sure that some of the Sigma lenses don't meet the spec.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

nickleback · Sep 14, 2006

bosjohn said:
--Out of curiosity is it possible to make a flexable sensor

Not with current tech. Silicon parts are brittle. And even if it is possible it is a bad idea in so many ways. Focus is messed up, for one.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

Joe0Bloggs · Sep 14, 2006

Make that a terrible day. But I won't use that as an excuse.

Sorry!

If I were to post again today, I guess I would just say that

1. They needed a sensor as big as possible to make existing lenses work well

2. 4/3rds is an SLR lens system and Leica M is a rangefinder system, the two are not remotely compatible
3. Leica has nowhere near the influence that IBM had

Glen Barrington · Sep 14, 2006

I've lived long enough to know that once my foot is firmly planted in my mouth, the only choice I've got is to move forward.

The problem with the internet in general and this forum in particular is that everything I've ever written here just NEVER goes away! I hat how some guy does a search on some obscure topic that I wrote about months ago (and behaved badly) then this guy RESPONDS, and there's that behaviour I'm trying to live down displayed for all to see!

If I can't let you slide a bit, what hope is there for me?

--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'

digital_ray_of_light · Sep 14, 2006

... in 2002. Kodak won the press conference by making a splash with the 14n, even though the sensor was not ready by far, but ended up getting a very bad reputation that probably was one of the primary reasons they got out of the professional DSLR market. (And it's ironic that Kodak sells CCDs to everyone else and went for CMOS for their own)...

AlanG said:
The Kodak SLR/n, SLR/c and 14n used a full frame sensor made by
Fill Factory, not by Kodak. People wondered about that choice at
the time and still do. I have no proof, but I would imagine the
Kodak sensor in the new Leica is very good or they couldn't release
the M8.
--
Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com

--
Comprehensive Photokina 2006 speculation: http://photographyetc.livejournal.com

Anyone surprised the M8 isn't a 4/3's camera?

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