Jill Greenberg

I am frankly amazed and horrified that so many people on this forum
see nothing wrong with these pictures.

for those posters (without children) who are asking "where do you
draw the line ?" let me spell it out for you. As a parent you
never do anything to deliberately harm your child, physically or
mentally.
Your really serious.....arent you? You REALLY think the 10 seconds of havng their lollypop taken away is going to damage them mentally?!?!?

I would hate to be your kid....I would be "saved" to the point of not being prepared for anything in my world.
This is part of your natural "wiring" as a normal
parent. Even animals have this instinct - unless someone takes
their young from them and they lose the bond.
Yeah...well many animals eat their young too.....(insert cocked eyebrow and screwed up face here)
Sometimes difficult
things which will cause short term pain have to be done. Stitches
is a classic example - with a toddler this is an extremely
stressful experience for the parents. The point though is that it
had to done for the childs own good.
Please revert back to my "You REALLY think the child was truly traumatized by this?!?" comment
This woman crosses a very obvious and easily discernable line -
these children did not have to be upset. She deliberately got them
into this state. Imagine the thoughts of the children, twenty
years on, looking at these photos. What would go through your mind
if it was you ?
If it was me.....I say...DAMN...was that spoiled to get in a tizzy over a lollypop?....glad I had balanced parents and grew up with a balanced view of the world.
How often did mum and dad do this to me ?
I am sure as a child that question would be answered over the lifetime you propose passed till I asked the question.
And
what lesson are you teaching your child ?
Probably none as they probably got the lollypop a few seconds later. Realize...this is NOT real trauma....its a tempertantrum for their lollypop.
You are their role model
for acceptable behaviour. So its ok to give things to people then
take them away to upset them ?
As a role for life...no....for the sake of one picture in the childs life...sure...no problemo.
How will you react when he/she
starts doing this to other kids at playgroup ?
This is where learning what is acceptable and WHEN starts up. It will be up to the parent to squash that idea upon seeing it. Kids are extreemly resiliant AND intelligent.....they learn the lessons you teach them quite quickly....and this is EASILY correctable.
How will your child
react when you give them their birthday present or some other treat
? Will they hide it in case you take it away again ?
Oh brother.....your still serious?!?!?!? Give me a break......go write Jill and ask how many children were afraid of their birthday presents?.....ask how many were perminantly scarred by these photo shoots......dude....If you are serious about this......I would perscribe that maybe you take a visit to some counseling.
Not good .... as you will realise when you have children of your
own. You will, or should, find this site as distressing as the
other parents who have expressed their disgust
For those of you (with kids) who condone these images .... well,
I've not got much to say really. If you cant see how wrong this
is then there must be a whole host of other things that you think
are "ok". Some part of that natural "wiring" that makes you
protect your children has been damaged, or perhaps never existed ?
Or perhaps gets selectively turned off when its something you want
? Or perhaps someone else did the real parenting and you had a
distant role ? I would look back at the comments you have
posted. Do you really believe what you have put ?
I have a very well balanced kid with great positive attitude who also knows how to handle himself when life gets a little tough.......he is compassionate...(but not to a fault like many here seem to be)...loving....tough.....understanding. He isn't pampered...but he is well taken care of....trusts his parents....so doing a good job here....despite approving of these pictures....lol....so yep.....I do belive in what I have written and stand behind it 200%

Roman

--

Photography in short...is about the love of the beauty of your subject. Without that....all the technology in the world will not help you get a good picture.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
Nope, just praying that you don't!
--
Tom
 
...manipulation is acceptable and that those who don't see it as such are raising spoiled children. Truly sad, but then it takes all types.
--
Tom
 
Might I suggest a little counseling?!?

Its a good thing....(from a person who isnt afraid to get a little counseling myself)

Thats not a snide comment....but a friendly suggestion.

Roman
--

Photography in short...is about the love of the beauty of your subject. Without that....all the technology in the world will not help you get a good picture.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
Yes, I would be okay with that. Crying is part of life for most everyone, but provoking someone to do so, and then taking a photograph of it in order to make money is not my idea of a stable personality. Now, that is only my opinion.

And, by the way, I wouldn't buy one of the photos regardless of how the crying was generated.
--
Tom
 
I am frankly amazed and horrified that so many people on this forum
see nothing wrong with these pictures.
Of course, we see something wrong with this pictures : they are meant to! We are wired to react to a children crying, in picture or in real life!

However, what I don't see wrong is the existance of these pictures. I mean, I can get my little brother to look exactly like the kids on these pictures. I just have to ask him, because he actually likes acting. But I can tell you my teenage sister achieves exactly the same kind of effect on a daily basis, just by forbidding her little brother from "breaking" (touching) her stuff.

It does not take a lot to have a child cry like this, especially if the kid knows he's the center of attention of a whole lot of person! Don't you see how some of these kids are actually acting and taking pose?
As a parent you
never do anything to deliberately harm your child, physically or
mentally.
You obviously do not shop where I shop...

There are some occasions where I actually came very close to physically assaulting some parents, and some where I told them what I thought of them, because they were way passed the line... I have witnessed on countless occasions mothers telling their kids they wished they were not borned. I have seen parents actually dragging their kids around by the arm.
This is part of your natural "wiring" as a normal parent.
Well, obviously, some parents are not very well wired...
Even animals have this instinct
You mean, the ones that do not eat their offsprings if the females are not there to prevent it?
Sometimes difficult
things which will cause short term pain have to be done. Stitches
is a classic example - with a toddler this is an extremely
stressful experience for the parents.
I know. My father had to put my little brother through a lot more than mere stitches. And that's not a pleasant experience, usually my father is shaken for days afterwards. Actually, in these occasions, he suffers a lot more than my brother, who usually forgets about it a few hours afterwards and does not seem to hold anything against my father because of the torture sessions.

Yet, I also know that my father would not object much about my brother doing this kind of photo session. Like he did some onstage acting where he had to cry, and did so very naturally. Because you can make a kid understand that this is a game . Besides, my brother does not cry when you take away his candy bar, at worst, he kicks, at best he tricks you into giving it back...

Contrary to adults, children do not shy away from strong emotions. I have seen my sister watch movies like Bambi or Dark Crystal dozen of times when she was younger. And she cried without failure every single time. And yet, she would watch them again and again, and with great pleasure, even though she knew she would eventually cry. Do you think she was a masochist? Or that her parents should have protected her from that kind of useless harm?
This woman crosses a very obvious and easily discernable line -
these children did not have to be upset.
Maybe. Or maybe both the artist and the parents thought it was worth it. Who are you to tell? Maybe the photo sessions were part of something they wanted to teach their children about? Maybe the photo session was an occasion to strenghten the bound with their children? Maybe the children actually enjoyed the whole session, even if part of it involved distressing emotions - much like a Bambi movie?
Imagine the thoughts of the children, twenty
years on, looking at these photos. What would go through your mind
if it was you ?
Well, I can laugh about the kids who tortured me when I was a kid and made me eat baby frogs. I can laugh about that old kid who stole my pocket money and gave me several beating, until my father helped me handle the situation - and this has become a very fond memory actually.
Hopefully, most adult eventually develop a sense of humor and perspective.

And, maybe, these adults will actually be happy to have a picture from their childhood that actually carry some real feelings? So many kid photos are hopelessly souless; children doing fake smiles to the camera or just looking bored. Maybe they will enjoy having a picture showing at least some raw emotion their inner kid can still relate to...
I know I wish I had this kind of photo of me...
Not good .... as you will realise when you have children of your
own. You will, or should, find this site as distressing as the
other parents who have expressed their disgust
Obviously, not all parents feel this kind of disgust, otherwise the photos would not exist. ;)

Besides, I don't think that having children should cause you to forget about all your opinions and values. Otherwise, you are betraying yourself and your children. I believe children can understand a lot, if you explain it to them patiently and in words that can reach them. People want to shield their kids from everything nowadays! Children are a whole lot tougher than most adults think - they need it to survive school and playground!
 
Hi All:

Interesting thread. I have two grown children that have had more that a couple of lolly pops pulled from their mouth; both literally and figuratively. I’m pleased to say they are both doing quite well. In fact as a child, I remember having a few taken from me too and as I recall I didn’t think much of that. However, for me personally, discovering that Santa Claus was a big hoax was a lot more disturbing than the lolly-pop affair…I’m still working that out.

I’ll make my point. Would I do such a thing to my kids? Yes and no. If the photographer came up to me with this idea and asked me to take my young child into her studio for the stated purpose of capturing powerful emotions at the emotional expense of the child the answer would be no. However, if she said she would pay my child 1000.00 dollars I would have said “sign us up”. Why the difference? To put my child through pain for no good reason is obscene; for a reasonable gain (like the gains we realize when our children “raise the roof” when they’re getting their inoculations) the answer would be yes. That is money that could be put to college or most any good purpose for the child. And I feel that it does the child no more harm than that shot in the butt that has the potential to do them so much good. I respect everyone’s opinion here but in my world having your lolly taken is no big deal.

I must also add that I really don’t like the photos but in my personal opinion no one has been harmed here. Best to all!

Gary
 
Then would you allow your child to be manipulated in this way? Would you do this to your child for a photograph in order to make money selling it?

If you really do have a child, then I think you should understand what I and many others are saying about her technique. When my little girl is in pain, I feel that pain. When she is happy, I feel that joy. I will do everything in my life to help her have a happy, balanced, positive life. I have made her cry before when she was given a time-out for something, but it didn't make me happy or please, and I didn't go running off to grab my camera thinking that this would be a great shot to have.

I certainly understand that there is pain in any child's life, and they spend much of their early years expresssing that emotion through crying. As a dad, I will not (nor will I allow it to be done) provoke my child to crying or anger.

"Photography in short...is about the love of your subject [just leave out the "beauty of" part]. Without that...all the technology in the world..."

Perhaps I donot choose to "get over myself" whatever you mean by that!
--
Tom
 
Counseling may be a good idea, but not because of the brooms. I was actually trying to make a little joke in support of your point. Nobody got it, so I guess I missed the mark.

I'll try to phrase things better next time, or use emoticons, or whatever.

Cheers,

Mike
 
As long as "art" isn't produced with public money and doesn't involve involuntary servitude, I don't have to like it (I don't, but the way) but it doesn't bother me a bit if people want to produce it or buy it. If select "parents" want an image of their progeny sqealing over lost candy, so what?
--
Mike St James
 
Gary,

So you would allow this to be done to your child if the "price was right." Interesting.
--
Tom
 
What in the world makes Jill Greenberg such a hot topic in a Nikon D... forum? Does she use a Nikon, does it make her photographs possible, or even better?

Like or disparage her photographs, why post this here?

I miss the connection between her photography and the content of this forum, but certainly someone in this thread can help me understand.

On the other hand, perhaps relevancy is no longer so?

Redwing
 
and I am a good parent.
now you're sounding like a politician...
Naaa....just telling what has been reported to me by my son's counselor...

(Counseling due to his biological fathers input....not mine)

Roman
--
Philip
--

Photography in short...is about the love of the beauty of your subject. Without that....all the technology in the world will not help you get a good picture.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 

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