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The PICT modes are fake IMHO

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JensR said:
JensR said:
What would you be prepared to bet ragarding this :)
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How much money do you have? =)
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No no no ... it was the other way around. :)
JensR said:
JensR said:
But you seem rather sure :)
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I did a quick test and the result is clear that colour changes with
the different modes. Just as different Shutter/aperture/ISO
combinations get chosen with the picture modes.
Click to expand...
Bah! Color changes! Yet another reason not to use it IMHO. The camera can have no knowledge at all what kind of colors I want. Does it assume bluer sky and grrener grass in mountain mode or does it assume there is haze to remove? And if the sky is gray, the grass yellow and the air is clear?
JensR said:
Whether all this makes sense is another question. I think the idea
of picture modes changing colour makes sense for JPEG shooters and
that it can be beneficial to have some logic matching shutter speed
and aperture. After all, P-mode is even worse because one doesn't
even tell the camera what it should assume. And yet, great images
can be captured with P-mode. Sadly, the current implementation of
picture modes makes them not very useful for advanced use.
Click to expand...
P, Av and M for old lenses. It is all there is needed for normal photography IMHO.

--
Roland
http://klotjohan.mine.nu/~roland/
 
wlachan said:
Basically what PIC modes do is each has its own program line which
defines what aperture or shutter speed to use whenever possible.
They aren't that useless really when you are in a hurry and don't
have time to mess with aperture or shutter manually. AUTO PIC will
choose which mode to use depends on, surprise! the shooting
distance of the lens. If you turn the focus ring slowly, you should
be able to get a pattern on how it chooses. But I am surprised you
failed to notice these since you are a programmer. :-)
Click to expand...
I think I have analyzed and found that on their own, the value of each individual mode is very low - at least for me. They are also misleading as they do other things than is expected IMHO, i.e. the tulip mode not affecting focussing. It is also a danger with having settings that are not reset upon restart of camera. It is very easy to have the camera in the "wrong" mode. In this particular case it might not matter as the modes do not do much :)

The AUTO PICT mode? Hmmmm .. maybe it is more clever than I can imagine. And I have a rather well trained imagination :) Its night and dark here right now - so it is hard to test what you suggest with any kind of precision. Turning off auto focus and turn the focus ring slowly? OK - then the sports mode is out as it only affects auto focus. The night mode I have never seen in AUTO PICT. So - left is Smiley and the three distance modes. Hmmm - maybe it is Tulip-Portrait-Smiley-Mountain, from nearest to farthest. But I have been testing at a wall with konstant distance - and I got - Sports/Portrait/Mountain/Smile at the same distance with almost the same picture. So - no .. I shall test tomorrow and see if I can see what you are getting at.

Now - sleep - it is well after midnigth.

--
Roland
http://klotjohan.mine.nu/~roland/
 
Roland Karlsson said:
Roland Karlsson said:
I did a quick test and the result is clear that colour changes with
the different modes. Just as different Shutter/aperture/ISO
combinations get chosen with the picture modes.
Click to expand...
Bah! Color changes! Yet another reason not to use it IMHO.
Click to expand...
You were not aware before that this is a crucial part of the pict modes?
Roland Karlsson said:
The camera can have no knowledge at all what kind of colors I want.
Does it assume bluer sky and grrener grass in mountain mode or does
it assume there is haze to remove? And if the sky is gray, the
grass yellow and the air is clear?
Click to expand...
The camera always post-processes pictures/colours unless you are shooting RAW. The default colour/contrast setting is a compromise . Don't tell me that you change colour and saturation for individual shots when you are out shooting JPEG - noone I know of does this.

By using Pict modes, the photographer can tell the camera in which direction it should post-process the RAW data for the JPEGs. This is a good thing. The bad thing is that Pict modes !currently! take away all the control from the photographer. Currently this means that Pict modes are useless for advanced users, but that doesn't mean they are a stupid idea. As you probably know, some upper-level cameras offer user-configurable settings to store image parameters in.

I'd like to see a merging of those two technologies. It would offer increased functionality without costing much.
Roland Karlsson said:
P, Av and M for old lenses. It is all there is needed for normal
photography IMHO.
Click to expand...
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. In a calm hour, you might contemplate whether your definition of "need" and "normal" are universally true and why you think P mode is good, although you are at its mercy to "do the right thing".

Jens

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
http://www.jensroesner.de/
 
When I give my camera to others I usually set it onto auto pict or one of the modes so that I know I'll get a useable picture from it. Also an a fairly entry-level cam when somea re just starting out they are useful.
--
Arpe - NZ - *istDs
 
Drop on down and look at Moho's flower shot in "Macro mode". If it helps someone get started, just like bicycle training wheels, then I'm all for it, whether it is real or not. His shot looks pretty good to my eyes! I know old Moho, he's 6'3 1/2", 240 lb of solid muscle (good looking too) so I know he ain't no sissy. LOL
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
 
I tried sunset mode out of curiousity on the K100D and that worked WAY better than I expected.. certainly different exposure to normal auto-pic mode... Of course with exposure compensation I can do the same, but hey it is still good to see it works well.. ;-)

------------
Joel - K100D/DS/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
 
Roland:

Nooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!! :) Im not making fun of anyone!!! I thought it was funny!!!!! :) Thats all !!! and its not another thread, this is just an extension of the same one since that one maxed out.

The last thing I wanted to do was offend someone for cripes sake. I was genuinely amused by his remarks and believe me, Im NOT one iota offended by Rupert's remarks or do I feel 'hit' !!!!! Obviously something got lost in the translation to the post I made. If you knew me believe me you would know I am NOT offended by Ruperts remarks. My post was meant as a humorous reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Am I the only one that can see that???
Roland Karlsson said:
tknterry said:
Rupert,
Thats also the impression I got hahahahaha
...
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So - you like to make fun of other posters posts and opinions?

So much that you even copies such a reply from another thread - so
we can admire how witty it is.

No - no one cares whether you use PICT modes or not. The
diiscussion is about what those modes does - if they do anything
useful at all. If this is some kind of critique - then it is Pentax
that should be the target. Not you. If you feel hit - thats your
problem.

--
Roland
http://klotjohan.mine.nu/~roland/
Click to expand...
--
---Terry http://www.photostuff.org/
 
Rupert,

I was joking !!!!!!!!! :) I thought your post was hilarious and I loved it!!! I hope you didnt think my reply was a jab at your post in the maxed out thread, of which this is an extension. Far from it, it was a tribute! Your humor did not get lost on me :) Obviously my humor got lost in cyberspace somewhere :) Now everyone thinks Im a fiend!!
--
---Terry http://www.photostuff.org/
 
Dear Roland,

You have criticized a piece of Pentax gear. The forum has now entered "Pentax gear defense mode." In this mode, all criticism directed towards Pentax equipment is routed through a personalizing criticism converter and reflected back upon to you.

An example:

You say, "X Pentax feature/item is useless/broken/stupid does not perform well"
Forum says, "No, you are useless/broken/stupid and can't think well!"

This is not just a theory. I've tested it - the empirical data supports my claims.

So to maximize your forum image quality, you may need to adjust your scene mode from "critical" to "sunny" or, if you really want best results, "AUTO PICT" is said to be 100% forum compatible...

;-)

-Matt
 
the following is available currently at adorama.com at this internal site.

printed it runs 7 pages. personally i never knew that there were so many scene modes. also it doesn't matter to me since i have a Pentax istD which has no scene modes. and yes scene modes are intended for newbie who would have difficulty taking a picture without them for a time after purchase.
the article is very interesting.

http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=academy&article=051106
 
JensR said:
By using Pict modes, the photographer can tell the camera in which
direction it should post-process the RAW data for the JPEGs. This
is a good thing. The bad thing is that Pict modes !currently! take
away all the control from the photographer. Currently this means
that Pict modes are useless for advanced users, but that doesn't
mean they are a stupid idea. As you probably know, some upper-level
cameras offer user-configurable settings to store image parameters
in.
I'd like to see a merging of those two technologies. It would offer
increased functionality without costing much.
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly. I'd rather have icons on a knob for my user settings than 'user1' and 'user2' somewhere in the menu...

--
Regards, Lucas
 
[U] Arpe said:
When I give my camera to others I usually set it onto auto pict or
one of the modes so that I know I'll get a useable picture from it.
Also an a fairly entry-level cam when somea re just starting out
they are useful.
Click to expand...
Hi Arpe,

Make an experiment. Set the camera at P when you are out photographing. Then, look at the result. Is it worse than it use to be?

Most experienced photographers do not use the PICT modes (or so I believe). Mainly inexperienced photographers use the PICT modes. So, what kind of evidence do we have that they improves the result?

Just a thought.

--
Roland
http://klotjohan.mine.nu/~roland/ [/U]
 
Roland Karlsson said:
OK - portrait equals P only for tele settings. For wide angle you
get Mountain mode, i.e. smaller aperture.
Click to expand...
Since it believe you choose wide angle to photograph a group of people, it sets a smaller wide angle to increase the depth-of-field here. It's very logic. With tele, it's more likely that you go for a single-person shot and wants a blurred background so that is exactly what it does.

In my MZ-10 manual, all the picture modes has a chart with the combination of aperture and shutter and one can clearly see the differencies here and the break-points where they start to differ. It's not big differencies, but they are there and they kicks into action at high light levels. At low light levels, there's much less of a difference. Sadly, the manual for the DSLR's doesn't include this chart.

The charts is for the F 35-80 f/4-5.6 lens at 35mm and 80mm and with ISO 100.
http://www.pentax.ca/support/general/film_om.php
Go to page 49.

Of course the "break points" where the modes starts to differ is different with DSLR's starting at ISO 200 etc, but those charts gives an idea about the logic and the basic logic is the same in Pentax DSLR's that uses the picture modes.

Take care
R
 
JensR said:
JensR said:
Bah! Color changes! Yet another reason not to use it IMHO.
Click to expand...
You were not aware before that this is a crucial part of the pict
modes?
Click to expand...
No - I missed that. And as you already understand - I don't think it is an advantage. BTW - the modes are old - from the flm time. And then they could not do any such manipulations. So - it is rather an "improvement" of the modes than a "crucial part".
JensR said:
The camera always post-processes pictures/colours unless you are
shooting RAW. The default colour/contrast setting is a
compromise . Don't tell me that you change colour and saturation
for individual shots when you are out shooting JPEG - noone I know
of does this.
Click to expand...
I think you have overinterpreted what the camera does. The RAW-> JPG conversion is not adaptable to the picture. It does not change the contrast or saturation depending on subject. It is a fixed mapping from RAW-> JPG. You can have a camera color profile and work with JPG in callibrated work. That would not be possible if the camera made some "magic". It would have been different if the JPGs contained individual color profiles. But they don't.

When it comes to the PICT modes you might be right. I have not slightest idea what they do with color.
JensR said:
By using Pict modes, the photographer can tell the camera in which
direction it should post-process the RAW data for the JPEGs. This
is a good thing.
Click to expand...
I should add IMHO there :)
JensR said:
The bad thing is that Pict modes !currently! take
away all the control from the photographer. Currently this means
that Pict modes are useless for advanced users, but that doesn't
mean they are a stupid idea. As you probably know, some upper-level
cameras offer user-configurable settings to store image parameters
in.
Click to expand...
Stored settings is a totally different functionality than PICT modes. I don't know if I should use them if they existed. To use or not use pre configurations is a matter of style or maybe what kind of work you do.
JensR said:
JensR said:
P, Av and M for old lenses. It is all there is needed for normal
photography IMHO.
Click to expand...
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. In a calm hour, you
might contemplate whether your definition of "need" and "normal"
are universally true and why you think P mode is good, although you
are at its mercy to "do the right thing".
Click to expand...
OK - Av and M then :P

See - only 2 :)

The advantage of P over Av for newbies is that someone at Pentax have helped them to choose a reasonable combination of time and aperture. So - it is a very good newbie mode.

--
Roland
http://klotjohan.mine.nu/~roland/
 
The picture first entered the Z-20/PZ-20 were they were user adjustable and had a learning-function. But Pentax soon stopped this and went for pre-programmed patterns in the Z-70/PZ-70 and they introduce auto picture modes in the MZ-10/ZX-10. I found them to work well in my MZ-10 and they work equally well in my *ist DS. But they need high light levels.

Take care
R
 
The picture modes has pre-programmed aperture/shutter combinations/chart.

The auto-picture mode reads the focal length and the focused subject distance to set what it thinks is the correct picture mode. When it has settled for a program line/picture mode, then it monitors only to see if it should change to another. It may not set the correct picture mode, but it does try.

And no, focus points doesn't matter here. Why should they matter? Center point or a point at the edges, no, doesn't matter at all. A mountain can be in the center, it can also be at the left or at right, any subject can be anywhere, so there's no linkage between AF logic and picture modes and has never been.

To understand the charts, I recommend that you download the MZ-10 manual from Pentax Canada and have a look at the charts at page 49. Sadly, current DSLR models from Pentax does not include a chart that explains the logic behind the picture modes, so you have to read the old charts. My experience comparing my MZ-10 with my *ist DS is that they uses a similar logic/pattern.

Take care
R
 
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