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Corrupted NEF on D80

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Julia Borg said:
Is it that Nikon abandons
or ready to abandon their previous scheme of white balancing based
on multiplication by two coefficients, thus decreasing the value of
"click/select gray" methods? We have indirect proof that it can
happen. In new NEF structure there is a 3x3 matrix reserved for WB.
Click to expand...
Julia,

I know very little about this WB coefficient thing. Is the 3x3 matrix representation more flexible and comprehensive than 2 coefficients? Why did you say it "decreasing the value of click/select gray method"?
--
John
 
Uhh. The Kodak was neither Nikon nor a DSLR. RAW was not an option.

Look, it seems as though regardless of what I think, you're going to have a different opinion. That's okay, and it's one reason I enjoy these forums. But, the initial point of having NX Capture not able to extract D80 NEFs is still my position. Now, maybe that would've meant a two week delay in their teaser program. Fine. Would we have known about it? No. However, some of the other topics in this thread would still have appeared. Often, new software drags along bugs from previous versions. It doesn't fix them but instead promotes new features. And, new bugs. Sometimes, we learn to live with the existing bugs and learn methods to work around them. Everyone doesn't need to rush out and purchase the latest version of Microsoft Word to do word processing. However, if you want the added features, then you pay the price. It would have been nice if Nikon was at lest willing to make Capture 4.x compatible. But of course they haven't. So is Nikon winning hearts and minds with this strategy? Time will tell.

I like to experiment with new software as much as anyone I know. It's always fun to see what new tools software engineers can bring to the table. I don't however agree that's newer is always better.

So in the end, my opinion is that Capture NX should ship with the D80 even if that increased the cost of the package. And, that by doing this, Nikon would mitigate some of the negative publicity they will inevitably receive because it isn't included. And, while they may be making record profits, I suggest it could be better. I'm sure there are folks reading this forum and considering a first DSLR purchase. This can't be comforting for them to read. It would certainly have given me a pause becasue from the beginning, I knew that my purchse was an investment in Nikon hardware. I knew that newer, better cameras would be introduced every two to three years. I did not anticipate having to constantly purchase expensive new Nikon software to get the most from them.

--
Craig
 
RAw was not an option with the Kodak but you upgraded to new nikon Techniology that gave you new options and that changed your workflow. It the the very nature of the evolutiopn of digital imaging technology. Even photoshop upgrades change things between versions that changes your workflow too. Should we all still be using photoshop 4.0 because we developed a workflow around that 6 years ago?

I did not say that just cause something was newer it was better. I said that I adopt newer technology if it works better for me. That will always necessitate a change or evolution of my workflow.

Would it be nice for Nikon to include Capture with the camera?....yes it would- I like teh idea of "free" software too. Thing is, they dont include it and people still go an buy both the cameras and NX. Looking at this as if I were Nikon, What incentive does Nikon have to "give this away with the camera"? None that I can see cause customers are still buying both.

The thing is, If they did include NX with the camera, you would be happy but you would then get other people who will complain "I dont want to have to pay extra to get NX that I dont want to use. This is a no win Arguement for Nikon especially if the market is price sensitive like Cameras at the D80 level of the market
C. Lewis said:
Uhh. The Kodak was neither Nikon nor a DSLR. RAW was not an option.

Look, it seems as though regardless of what I think, you're going
to have a different opinion. That's okay, and it's one reason I
enjoy these forums. But, the initial point of having NX Capture not
able to extract D80 NEFs is still my position. Now, maybe that
would've meant a two week delay in their teaser program. Fine.
Would we have known about it? No. However, some of the other topics
in this thread would still have appeared. Often, new software drags
along bugs from previous versions. It doesn't fix them but instead
promotes new features. And, new bugs. Sometimes, we learn to live
with the existing bugs and learn methods to work around them.
Everyone doesn't need to rush out and purchase the latest version
of Microsoft Word to do word processing. However, if you want the
added features, then you pay the price. It would have been nice if
Nikon was at lest willing to make Capture 4.x compatible. But of
course they haven't. So is Nikon winning hearts and minds with this
strategy? Time will tell.

I like to experiment with new software as much as anyone I know.
It's always fun to see what new tools software engineers can bring
to the table. I don't however agree that's newer is always better.

So in the end, my opinion is that Capture NX should ship with the
D80 even if that increased the cost of the package. And, that by
doing this, Nikon would mitigate some of the negative publicity
they will inevitably receive because it isn't included. And, while
they may be making record profits, I suggest it could be better.
I'm sure there are folks reading this forum and considering a first
DSLR purchase. This can't be comforting for them to read. It would
certainly have given me a pause becasue from the beginning, I knew
that my purchse was an investment in Nikon hardware. I knew that
newer, better cameras would be introduced every two to three years.
I did not anticipate having to constantly purchase expensive new
Nikon software to get the most from them.

--
Craig
Click to expand...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/k-blad/
 
Brad Morris wrote:
[snip]
Brad Morris said:
Threads like this are written by 1. people who understand business
and 2. people who dont understand business and want to have an
idealistic view of the world.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Threads like this are written by photographers. It is sensible for such people to formulate their own views about what they would like to have, so that they can make better-informed decisions.

While trying to decide what they want, it is best not to be defeatist. Companies can be persuaded to change their policies, (possibly over a long time), by purchasing decisions or adverse publicity, etc. And individual photographers may decide that they should look elsewhere.

What those photographers need to do is realise (if they haven't already) that their interests don't necessarily coincide with Nikon's, and explore other possibilities.
 
Julia Borg wrote:
[snip]
Julia Borg said:
if Nikon will feel their sales are in
danger, they may decide to explain why DNG is not really an option.
that may cause heavy second thoughts in some who went DNG way.
Click to expand...
I think it would be excellent for Nikon to start a debate about the merits or otherwise of DNG. Let's have it all out in the open!
 
Karl Jacobs said:
are there ANY of the camera manafacturers that are treating their
customers well in regards to their software?..
Click to expand...
[snip]

It is worth remembering that some don't charge for their software. And Pentax now supply a DNG Converter to make it easier for their users to use other software from day one.
 
I have never suggested that End users have not had a choice of what software they want to use. I have also never suggested that NX is the best, or only software, worth considering for processing NEF files.

What I have been discussing is Nikon's business practices with their software and their choice to release new updates for new model camera support to their RAW software only at the time of camera release.

You, on the other hand have been and doing a sell job on DNG whilst evangelizing it using the same rational and arguements as a missionary saving the heathens.

At no stage have you provided any business rational or benefit as to why Nikon, the producers of the software would want to completely change the way they have been doing things. It is irrelevant as to what you or I want them to do if we continue to buy their products simply because we ARE continuing to buy their products and they are getting the revenue anyway. I would like Nikon to give me D2X and D200 bodies for Free because it would benefit ME. Aint likely to happen any time soon though just as Nikon are not likely to drop all their NEF technology in favour of DNG just cause you think you will get a benefit
Barry Pearson said:
Barry Pearson said:
Threads like this are written by 1. people who understand business
and 2. people who dont understand business and want to have an
idealistic view of the world.
Click to expand...
[snip]

Threads like this are written by photographers. It is sensible for
such people to formulate their own views about what they would like
to have, so that they can make better-informed decisions.

While trying to decide what they want, it is best not to be
defeatist. Companies can be persuaded to change their policies,
(possibly over a long time), by purchasing decisions or adverse
publicity, etc. And individual photographers may decide that they
should look elsewhere.

What those photographers need to do is realise (if they haven't
already) that their interests don't necessarily coincide with
Nikon's, and explore other possibilities.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/k-blad/
 
Brad Morris wrote:
[snip]
Brad Morris said:
At no stage have you provided any business rational or benefit as
to why Nikon, the producers of the software would want to
completely change the way they have been doing things.
Click to expand...
[snip]

That is because I don't believe at the moment that there IS a good reason for them to do so. I said to you earlier "I don't disagree with your statement of Nikon's own position here":
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=19861038

In fact, I speculate that Nikon will be the last important camera manufacturer to support DNG in any significant way, (and that may be some years away):
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/speculate.htm#01

Nikon may be influenced by their users, (or ex-users!), which is one of the reasons I suggest that those users examine their own interests. Another reason is that some photographers may find alternatives that suit them better. I'm writing here for photographers, not to tell Nikon what their strategy should be.
 
I can View D80 RAW files with Nikn View (v 6.2.7.). No problem at all.

Looks like you have to wait for an upgrade of Nikon Capture 4 (although I very much doubt it will ever come). I guess Nikon wants us to buy Capture NX (nope, no upgrade program in the Netherlands!).

--
Regards,

Fred Kamphues
http://www.millhouse.nl
 
If you're going to respond to the post, you should at least read it first. I did not suggest that Nikon give away the software. Nobody really gives away software. It is merely included in the price. The software developers are getting paid by the someone and that person is charging for their services.

I didn't even have a "workflow" with the Kodak. I didn't realize how much better an image could be until I got my D70.

You keep ignoring the concept that good customer support IS in Nikon's business interest. Have you ever heard the old adage of a dissapointed customer complaining to 10 people while a satisfied customer tells only one? Look through this forum. It's much more about issues that folks have than it is about praises of companies that went the extra mile to keep them happy.

BTW. I don't want to pay for the video cable that comes with the body. But, I've never complained about getting one. It's a feature on the camera that I can use if I want. It's NOT even one of the key features of the camera.

Bottom line. Quality RAW manipulation software should have been ready and shipped with the D80. It's a fundamental reason for purchasing the camera. It's incredible to me that you cannot grasp such a simple concept. It is my opinion. Other reviewers of Nikon cameras have stated similar positions. So there's actually a body of folks who share this view.

Obviously, your expectations are lower than mine.
A pesimist is never disappointed...

--
Craig
 
C. Lewis said:
Bottom line. Quality RAW manipulation software should have been
ready and shipped with the D80.
Click to expand...
maybe all this is a little too early and bit too much.

Do you know where I can buy D80 today? are you sure that some NX 1.0.1 trial is not included?

I have 3 Nikon cameras and three useless videocables. how much more do I need?

heh, I even do not need 3 battery charges :))

how many copies of NC/NX do I need? I do not want to get it with each new camera.

lots of folks do not use NC/NX, they do not want to pay even for the "demo" CD.
C. Lewis said:
It's a fundamental reason for
purchasing the camera.
Click to expand...
for some. others shoot jpgs.

--
Julia
 
Barry Pearson said:
Nikon may be influenced by their users, (or ex-users!), which is
one of the reasons I suggest that those users examine their own
interests.
Click to expand...
One of those interests may well be to maintain the health of Nikon's own software, since they find it to give the best rendering of NEF files, and appreciate innovative features such as keeping multiple "versions" within the same file. They may consider that if Nikon moved to some format like DNG then they would lose the innovations that Nikon are able to introduce by virtue of controlling the format.
 
How many copies of Nikon View do you need? What other software do you need to process JPGss.

About about a model that does NOT offer NEFs so that those folks who only shoot JPGs don't have to pay for features or software they'll never use?

--
Craig
 
hollygolitely wrote:
[snip]
hollygolitely said:
One of those interests may well be to maintain the health of
Nikon's own software, since they find it to give the best rendering
of NEF files, and appreciate innovative features such as keeping
multiple "versions" within the same file. They may consider that if
Nikon moved to some format like DNG then they would lose the
innovations that Nikon are able to introduce by virtue of
controlling the format.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that is what Nikon would like people to believe.

But what can be done with Nikon's XML-based edit lists that can't be done with XMP-in-DNG using a Nikon (or Nik/NX) namespace? (XMP is itself based on XML + RDF).

What can be done with Nikon's exploitation of EXIF Makernote that can't be done with DNG's use either of EXIF MakerNote + DNG's MakerNoteSafety, or DNGPrivateData?

When Adobe devised XMP and DNG they knew they couldn't dictate a constrained view to other companies and hope to gain acceptance. In both cases they provided the means for companies to add their own value in specific areas, while conforming to a standard way of doing things when they were not attempting to add value.

DNG can be thought of as 2 parts: a baseline set of data that enables lots of products to produce a high-quality image; and an added-value set of data that enables a company such as Nikon to add value beyond that baseline quality, and so make money until lots of other companies have caught up. The baseline set of data enables software to achieve at least the image quality that Adobe can achieve with ACR and Lightroom, using an openly-documented specification. (Those products use just the baseline set of data).

The baseline has archival value. In decades to come, using just openly-documented features, DNGs will be processable using software & hardware that doesn't yet exist to yield images of at least the quality that ACR and Lightroom can achieve today. (That is far better than the risk of not being able to process the images at all!)

If Nikon used DNG & XMP, they would still control the format of DNGPrivateData, and XMP parameters with a Nikon-owned namespace. What they would relinquish would be a basic understanding of the raw image data - but they lose that within weeks anyway, when lots of companies reverse-engineer the NEFs for a new camera. (Adobe, Phase One, Bibble, Dave Coffin, Apple, Raw developer, Silkypix, Raw Magick ......)
 
Barry,

So what you're essentially saying is that Nikon only maintains its exclusivity on its RAW secrets for a few weeks. Therefore, in the end an unintended consequence could be that Nikon users just wait for the third party developers to reverse engineer the RAW code before purchasing a new Nikon body. This could then be a simple matter of upgrading the third party software instead of Nikon's pricey alternative.

I'm certainly not a pro photographer, but it seems to me that folks who spend business time developing and executing a workflow would avoid Nikon software like the plague!

--
Craig
 
C. Lewis said:
Barry,

So what you're essentially saying is that Nikon only maintains its
exclusivity on its RAW secrets for a few weeks. Therefore, in the
end an unintended consequence could be that Nikon users just wait
for the third party developers to reverse engineer the RAW code
before purchasing a new Nikon body. This could then be a simple
matter of upgrading the third party software instead of Nikon's
pricey alternative.

I'm certainly not a pro photographer, but it seems to me that folks
who spend business time developing and executing a workflow would
avoid Nikon software like the plague!
Click to expand...
The reason that they don't do so is that they like the results of using Nikon s/w - you know, the photos, the reason we're doing this stuff in the first place.
 
I just wish they would allow the D80 NEFs to work with Capture 4.4. It's not like that is old software, NX just came out. I understand it not working with Capture from a year or so ago, but geesh...

-Steve

--

 
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