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Sigma SD14 & Foveon X3..too late to the party?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Barry Fitzgerald
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Barry Fitzgerald

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I admit I like the thinking behind the X3 sensor. And the Sigma looks interesting.

But where is this going to go? A non standard crop size...less lenses..cost?

Its pretty hot out there for competition...esp at the lower end. X3 looks great..but has Bayer and Eastman Kodak's idea taken over the front seat..and nobody else will get a look in?

Dont get me wrong...I think Foveon looks great...some issues..I like Sigma, they produced some good 35mm SLR's too. But is it all a bit late, in a world of Canon and Nikon...bayers sensors?

What do you think...would you prefer Foveon? Or does Bayer do the job ok?

Some more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sensors.htm

--

 
Barry Fitzgerald said:
I admit I like the thinking behind the X3 sensor. And the Sigma
looks interesting.

But where is this going to go? A non standard crop size...less
lenses..cost?

Its pretty hot out there for competition...esp at the lower end. X3
looks great..but has Bayer and Eastman Kodak's idea taken over the
front seat..and nobody else will get a look in?

Dont get me wrong...I think Foveon looks great...some issues..I
like Sigma, they produced some good 35mm SLR's too. But is it all a
bit late, in a world of Canon and Nikon...bayers sensors?

What do you think...would you prefer Foveon? Or does Bayer do the
job ok?

Some more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sensors.htm

--

Click to expand...
About the only thing I know for sure is that their releasing a new camera. Surely if it's up around 6 or 8 megs I will be interested. Some have suggest that, others reply the the 14 stands for 4 Megs - Why not let it stand for 1.4 megs?

Who knows - Yes, I'm interested! :)

Dave
 
Foveon normally quote their sensors as the number of photosites times 3, as since they are three colour at every photosite it is obviously not the same as a Bayer sensor, so the 14 is presumably around 4.6million photosites.

Opinions vary as to the correct bayer equivalent, and also it depends what you are testing for - the black and white equivalence is different to the colour and so on.

Some Foveon afficionados would give the equivalence at at least the 3 times factor, as the Foveon is very sharp as it does not use a AA filter.
Others would put it at twice, if that.
So take your pick, but the number of photosites is almost certainly around 4.6MP
Chato said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:
I admit I like the thinking behind the X3 sensor. And the Sigma
looks interesting.

But where is this going to go? A non standard crop size...less
lenses..cost?

Its pretty hot out there for competition...esp at the lower end. X3
looks great..but has Bayer and Eastman Kodak's idea taken over the
front seat..and nobody else will get a look in?

Dont get me wrong...I think Foveon looks great...some issues..I
like Sigma, they produced some good 35mm SLR's too. But is it all a
bit late, in a world of Canon and Nikon...bayers sensors?

What do you think...would you prefer Foveon? Or does Bayer do the
job ok?

Some more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sensors.htm

--

Click to expand...
About the only thing I know for sure is that their releasing a new
camera. Surely if it's up around 6 or 8 megs I will be interested.
Some have suggest that, others reply the the 14 stands for 4 Megs -
Why not let it stand for 1.4 megs?

Who knows - Yes, I'm interested! :)

Dave
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
The Foveon sensor has been irrelevant in the marketplace. It is about 99.99999% certain that the new camera isn't going to change that.
 
why the SD9 and 10 have the same number of sensors? :)

There is one thing I'm 100 percent sure of, that guy Koni has a bug in his bonnet, and no matter how good the camera is, he will say it stinks - sight unseen... :)

Dave
David Martin said:
Chato said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:
I admit I like the thinking behind the X3 sensor. And the Sigma
looks interesting.

But where is this going to go? A non standard crop size...less
lenses..cost?

Its pretty hot out there for competition...esp at the lower end. X3
looks great..but has Bayer and Eastman Kodak's idea taken over the
front seat..and nobody else will get a look in?

Dont get me wrong...I think Foveon looks great...some issues..I
like Sigma, they produced some good 35mm SLR's too. But is it all a
bit late, in a world of Canon and Nikon...bayers sensors?

What do you think...would you prefer Foveon? Or does Bayer do the
job ok?

Some more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sensors.htm

--

Click to expand...
About the only thing I know for sure is that their releasing a new
camera. Surely if it's up around 6 or 8 megs I will be interested.
Some have suggest that, others reply the the 14 stands for 4 Megs -
Why not let it stand for 1.4 megs?

Who knows - Yes, I'm interested! :)

Dave
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
Click to expand...
 
I honestly do not think that Sigma is competing with Canon, Nikon or the other brands. Its a niche camera, one that has its loyal followers. They like the idea and the results from the sensor. They may buy this camera and a nikon or canon or whatever. They buy for different reasons and for different characteristics. So I do not think they are too late to the party. They're not trying to be Canon or Nikon in sales. I think they are proud of their technology and will support it, they also know Sigma users will not upgrade every 6 months and THEY themselves cannot afford the dev costs.

Whilst I get extremely Pi....annoyed... with the SD10 lousy power and dirt issues, really appreciate the BASIC nature of the camera controls and ergonomics. It is easy to use without complex set up menus etc. Image quality is fine apart from the 100's and 1000's on the sensor. ;-)

The new camera looks like its set to be targeted at the mid range camera level...I guess in the UK that will be the 600 pound mark. At this level it could compete well.
 
Yeah, you've got a point - dunno what happenned to the SD11, SD12, and SD13 in that case! ;-)
Chato said:
There is one thing I'm 100 percent sure of, that guy Koni has a bug
in his bonnet, and no matter how good the camera is, he will say it
stinks - sight unseen... :)

Dave
David Martin said:
Chato said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:
I admit I like the thinking behind the X3 sensor. And the Sigma
looks interesting.

But where is this going to go? A non standard crop size...less
lenses..cost?

Its pretty hot out there for competition...esp at the lower end. X3
looks great..but has Bayer and Eastman Kodak's idea taken over the
front seat..and nobody else will get a look in?

Dont get me wrong...I think Foveon looks great...some issues..I
like Sigma, they produced some good 35mm SLR's too. But is it all a
bit late, in a world of Canon and Nikon...bayers sensors?

What do you think...would you prefer Foveon? Or does Bayer do the
job ok?

Some more info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sensors.htm

--

Click to expand...
About the only thing I know for sure is that their releasing a new
camera. Surely if it's up around 6 or 8 megs I will be interested.
Some have suggest that, others reply the the 14 stands for 4 Megs -
Why not let it stand for 1.4 megs?

Who knows - Yes, I'm interested! :)

Dave
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
I would love to see the results from a 36x36mm Foveon sensor, maybe 10MP (Real pixels, not sigma marketing pixels) behind a good lens in a controlled environment, like a studio.

I think that would be a situation that would make the Foveon sensor really shine...

--
http://www.4-3system.com
http://jonr.light.is
 
Member said:
But where is this going to go? A non standard crop size...less
lenses..cost?
Click to expand...
Tell me, what is a standard crop size?

1.3x,1.5x, 1.6x, 1.7x, 2x?

And then there are the even smaller formats....
Member said:
Its pretty hot out there for competition...
Click to expand...
I'm not convinced that you have to dominate in order to be successful.
Member said:
Dont get me wrong...I think Foveon looks great...some issues..I
like Sigma, they produced some good 35mm SLR's too. But is it all a
bit late, in a world of Canon and Nikon...bayers sensors?
Click to expand...
I'm also not sure how much of a "race" it is.
Member said:
What do you think...would you prefer Foveon? Or does Bayer do the
job ok?
Click to expand...
I haven't seen what this new sensor can do. The specs are even highly speculative from what I can see.

An X3 design has certain advantages that I like. But it also has certain disadvantages. So I'll just wait and see.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Member said:
Foveon normally quote their sensors as the number of photosites
times 3,
Click to expand...
Really? Then why is there an SD9 and an SD10 - both with the same photosites.
Member said:
so the 14 is presumably
around 4.6million photosites.
Click to expand...
Maybe that's right. I recall hearing 5.6M as a strong rumor some months back. Personally, think 4.6M photosites is too small of a jump. I base this on my my move from a 3Mp CP995 to a 5Mp CP5000. It just wasnt' that big of a jump. They should be looking to approximately double photosite count IMO. But maybe they tried and hit problems with noise?

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Jón Ragnarsson said:
I would love to see the results from a 36x36mm Foveon sensor, maybe
10MP (Real pixels, not sigma marketing pixels) behind a good lens
in a controlled environment, like a studio.
I think that would be a situation that would make the Foveon sensor
really shine...
Click to expand...
The SD14 looks to be the equivalent of a 10MP Bayer sensor camera. The SD9 and SD10 resolve as well or better than 6MP Bayer sensors. 10 "Real" MP in a Foveon would be as good or better than a 20MP Bayer. What consumer level camera out there has that much resolution? I could care less what the "real" megapixels of my SD9 are - 3.4 or 10.2 - it doesn't matter. What matters is the photographs and my eyes convince me that the resolution is as good or better than my 6MP Nikon. I think the Foveon already shines, espicially in light of the fact that it is first generation technology whihc will only improve in each succeeding generation.
--
My humble photo gallery: http://ntotrr.smugmug.com

 
Who knows, perhaps there was an issue with noise, perhaps not. It's not the increase in MP count that will at least draw the current users to the new SD. Faster focusing, buffer, and less noise is enough for most I think. A TTL flash system that works allthe time would be nice, like the iTTL system in my Nikon D50 (it's great). To me, there's just something about a Foveon image that makes it unique. There's that intangible factor that draws me.
--
My humble photo gallery: http://ntotrr.smugmug.com

 
Peter A. Stavrakoglou said:
Who knows, perhaps there was an issue with noise, perhaps not.
It's not the increase in MP count that will at least draw the
current users to the new SD. Faster focusing, buffer, and less
noise is enough for most I think. A TTL flash system that works
allthe time would be nice, like the iTTL system in my Nikon D50
(it's great). To me, there's just something about a Foveon image
that makes it unique. There's that intangible factor that draws me.
Click to expand...
It doesn't have the same draw for me, but my theory is that because the images are somewhat aliased, luminance-wise, they sharpen to "satisfaction" without any halos and without increasing the noise near the nyquist as much as AA-filtered cameras, so a brain can happy that the eyes have achieved focus when looking at the photos at 100% pixel view. To my eyes, higher-resolution Bayer images downsized to 3.4MP with the nearest neighbor method have a similar benefit.

--
John

 
Many also believe in the foveon concept. Fuji and Canon were working on similar ones too. BUt for Foveon as a business entity in this market sector. I suppose the market data had pretty much state the fact already !!

--
Franka
 
..you are correct - I assumed far too much!

Strange thi9ngs, assumptions, once born they develop their own life, and one can easily forget their origin if they are repeated a few times, and others have also made them.
My bad!!
Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:
Foveon normally quote their sensors as the number of photosites
times 3,
Click to expand...
Really? Then why is there an SD9 and an SD10 - both with the same
photosites.
Jay Turberville said:
so the 14 is presumably
around 4.6million photosites.
Click to expand...
Maybe that's right. I recall hearing 5.6M as a strong rumor some
months back. Personally, think 4.6M photosites is too small of a
jump. I base this on my my move from a 3Mp CP995 to a 5Mp CP5000.
It just wasnt' that big of a jump. They should be looking to
approximately double photosite count IMO. But maybe they tried and
hit problems with noise?

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
can deliver adequate quality for most things, so I must say I think bayer is good enough. Interested in the foveon technology I might be, but it will probably not be worth the money of changing system for the added (if any) quality.

Anders

Some of my pictures can be seen at;
http://teamexcalibur.se/US/usindex.html

event photography and photo journalism
 
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