Nikon D200 vs 5D

While also displaying atypical levels of CA, it seems to perform
better than the Nikkor 14mm.
you need to compare optical designs. Difference in the angle of
incidence is on the sensor side and depends on the optical formula
used.

pixel density plays role. higher pixel density resolves the
fringing. on D1H you will not be able to see it. on D2H fringing
shows. on D1X it is a waist unless you go into heavy
postprocessing. you can use this lens on cameras that have up to 6
megapixels given those cameras have strong anti-aliasing filters,
like D100.

but what is most important, the difference between film and digital
is that digital responds poorly to the light coming at sharp
angles. it causes loss of sensitivity (digital vignetting) and
fringing, when for example portion of the beam tangentially goes
through one color filter and then through the other. this effect
decreases resolution as well.

to overcome this limitation wide angle lenses for digital use
near-telecentric / retrofocus design, essentially being normal
lenses with wide-angle converters. The goal is to increase back
focus. Those lenses also use special glass elements to reduce
distortion which now is not compensated automatically through
symmetric design.

for film this is not a problem.

digital exaggerates "true" (common) chromatic aberrations of the
lens compared to film because of the interpolation process. during
raw conversion. id=f any pixel gets "false" color information this
false color is distributed further to adjacent pixels with
demosaicing.

--
Julia
While I am no expert on the techincal field, this seems a well written summary Julia.

Now, if Nikon would only push the limit to 1.2x, I'd be a happy camper, providing it rids the digital image of the majority of nasty bits towards the limits of traditional 35mm FF that is.
--
Rudi

It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby. - Elliott Erwitt
 
"In the end you need to understand FF and why it is useful in it's different way than DX. I use both systems because where one falls short, the other fills in."

thats what i really wan tto understand- when or why is full frame "better"/ "more advantagous" or whatever than a crop. give me examples so i can make a better decsion to purchased one or not- thanks sara
--
sara

please visit my gallery -
http://www.pbase.com/fidola13

The paradox of photography is that it is both simple and complicated in its nature, in that success is achieved through a combination of technique and personal vision. A zest for life leads us as photographers to discover what truly exists in the world around us. Photography is a reflection of life’s energy. Using a camera, we transmit our feelings, thoughts, and dreams in the form of images. Life’s stages and interests are documented and revealed in our photography.
by Randy Romano
 
Nikon (and Nikon users) have been giving all these 'technical'
issues as to why Nikon don't offer FF digital and are so against
it, but the real reason is that they can't afford it right now or
are just slow to develop things.
I never cared for disputes between Endians (I hope you read that book, and know what I mean), I just eat eggs.
But there has been FF 35mm
digital since 2002,
really? I tried one in 2000... It was not Canon, but a Contax, to refresh your memory.
People have been using it for years, and the market has
spoken.
yep. market has spoken, and Canon made FF into 400D.

no, due to grand volume of sales they were able to reduce the price of 1DsMkII dramatically.

or, better, in their recent WP Canon acknowledged wild life and sports photographers benefit from reduced frame ?

"For a sports or wildlife photographer whose tools of the trade are principally long lenses, the use of an APS-C DSLR provides the advantage of “longer” telephoto lenses that are smaller, lighter and more affordable yet have the same effective maximum apertures as telephoto lenses on a full-frame camera."

now preach to Canon.

--
Julia
 
I think this is first time I've gotten information from you that a
lay person, like me, and comprehend.
sometimes these forums look a bit claustrophobic. I'm sure you can easily google all I wrote, and find it explained better, with schemes and illustrations.
Now, a question, how do microlenses migitate (or not) the nasty
consequences of angles of incidence not optimal for digital sensors
(vignetting, CA, etc.)? Do they really help (significantly), or is
this just marketing hype?
Kodak in their dSLRs skipped microlenses, and got into even more severe problems.

Rotating microlenses on the periphery of the sensor to bring angles of incidence to less then 13 degrees (the angle at which the sensitivity is cut by 2 for current designs) might help.

Retrofocus designs to achieve exit pupil distance of 80 to 90mm from sensor for half-frame formats and about 130mm for full-frame will also help.

However wide-angle lenses, especially zooms, with 130mm backfocus are heavy, may be slow in focus or drain much power, and need very low distortion glass, or we are getting into CA trap. So it might be that on a next turn of evolution wides for half-frame will be easier, better, and cheaper. Of course, given they have reduced circles of coverage.

Now the interesting thing that if you compare real MTFs of a lens on film and on digital, they show very significant difference. I saw this in Germany with Leica using film back and digital back. That was a sort of good experiment, same body, same lens, steady bench, Gigabit film, controlled development.

--
Julia
 
2) Although you will hear much praise, I find Nikon ergonomics to
be problematic. I don't like the press-and-hold control system that
requires two hands to adjust ISO, WB and/or Quality.
Are you aware of the following feature found in the D200: it is the first Nikon dSLR for which the ergonomics can be customized to the user's preference (custom setting f6, p. 172 in the English version of the manual). Therefore if you don't like the press-and-hold system, you can change it.
5) Banding. I saw it in about 10% of the pictures I made with the
D200. Nikon users don't seem to mind - perhaps because they have no
choice
Or maybe because they see banding in only a handfull of pics out of thousands of shots w/o problems, as is my experience. I would consider a camera with banding present in 10% of the shot as defective.

--
Thierry
 
2) Although you will hear much praise, I find Nikon ergonomics to
be problematic. I don't like the press-and-hold control system that
requires two hands to adjust ISO, WB and/or Quality.
Are you aware of the following feature found in the D200: it is the
first Nikon dSLR for which the ergonomics can be customized to the
user's preference (custom setting f6, p. 172 in the English version
of the manual). Therefore if you don't like the press-and-hold
system, you can change it.
...however, that doesn't change the need to employ two hands for the purpose of changing either ISO, WB or Quality settings.
5) Banding. I saw it in about 10% of the pictures I made with the
D200. Nikon users don't seem to mind - perhaps because they have no
choice
Or maybe because they see banding in only a handfull of pics out of
thousands of shots w/o problems, as is my experience. I would
consider a camera with banding present in 10% of the shot as
defective.
As did I. And since it was the 3rd D200 I sampled over the course of eight months that produced images marred by banding (the first two show a higher rate of incidence based on the number of shots made - in both cases less than 30 as I sampled the cameras in-store to check the image quality), I consider the design itself fundamentally defective. I don't buy into the idea that a brand new $1700 camera should have to be sent back to the manufacturer for 'repair' just to minimize a problem that should not exist to begin with.

--
Garland Cary
 
I never said there would be no CA on a FF. I am saying it is less.
have you measured it? is it significant difference?
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Nikon-D200-vs-Canon-EOS-5D-Head-to-Head-Review-.htm

And I'd guess that CA with the 85/1.8 on the 5D would be even less than with the 50/1.4.

On the other hand, the 24 TSE has pretty bad CA. And was seriously pricey. Grr. Of course, there's nothing even remotely similar for APS-C cameras.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
You want to test with the same lens, and present a prove that the lens is not defective - instead of saying "We expected the lenses to be sharp" :)

But looking at the images from review one can only guess from what part of the image they were taken, what was the aperture, and was Canon affected by a camera shake, or there were some other factors.





--
Julia
 
But there has been FF 35mm
digital since 2002,
really? I tried one in 2000... It was not Canon, but a Contax, to
refresh your memory.
LOL, you may have "tried" the Contax N Digital in 2000, but it didn't actually make it to the market until some time in 2002! And by then, it was no comparison to the Canon 1Ds. On a scale of 1 to 5, Chasseur d'Images gives the 1N Digital a 1, the lowest possible rating.
People have been using it for years, and the market has
spoken.
yep. market has spoken, and Canon made FF into 400D.
Uh, hello!? The 400D is an entry-level DSLR that was never supposed to be a FF camera in the first place.
no, due to grand volume of sales they were able to reduce the price
of 1DsMkII dramatically.

or, better, in their recent WP Canon acknowledged wild life and
sports photographers benefit from reduced frame ?

"For a sports or wildlife photographer whose tools of the trade are
principally long lenses, the use of an APS-C DSLR provides the
advantage of “longer” telephoto lenses that are smaller, lighter
and more affordable yet have the same effective maximum apertures
as telephoto lenses on a full-frame camera."
Unlike some companies, Canon is able to offer a wide selection of frame formats allowing them to design cameras that are tailored to the unique needs and desires of different markets. For example, their's 1.3x for the sports/pj market, and their's FF for the studio/portrait market. Take the 5D, for example. Canon says that the 5D is designed to be a "lightweight DSLR with a full-size 12.8 megapixel CMOS sensor" that "fills the niche that many wedding photographers have been craving for. It answers the need for a camera that is light and easy to manage...yet despite its smaller size" still offers a full size high resolution sensor capable of very low noise levels even at high ISO.

Does that mean FF is for everyone? Of course not. That's why Canon also continues to offer 1.3x and 1.6x cameras. You have a choice with Canon.
 
While I am no expert on the techincal field, this seems a well
written summary Julia.
Now, if Nikon would only push the limit to 1.2x, I'd be a happy
camper, providing it rids the digital image of the majority of
nasty bits towards the limits of traditional 35mm FF that is.
With FF, you have the option of deciding to crop out those "nasty bits" yourself. But chances are, you'll look at the edges of the image and realize they look fine and are much ado about nothing. You may even find that those edges are no worse than what you get from a DX lens on a DX sensor. And in the end, those so-called "nasty bits" aren't nearly as "nasty" as some people make them out to be. If you want to go big, better to go full frame and leave the option of ridding the "nasty bits" (if they show up at all) up to you. Leave the power in your hands, rather than surrender that power to the camera.
 
I find that FF is Very useful with my 24mm TS-e. I also like the shallower depth of field with my telephotos. My wide angles have a very unique look and feel to them, A 35mm is slightly wide, a 28mm has a wide feel, a 20mm and 16mm definitely have a very wide feel to them. I can use this to my advantage instead of cramming information into a frame and trying to make an 18mm act as a 28mm. I truer background blur when shooting NBA and college basketball. I can use a 400mm 2.8 on FF to blur out the crowd. You don't get the same crowd separation on aps-c and a 300mm 2.8. It is always easier to add DOF than it is to get rid of it. I like having control over that.

Why aps-c and the D200? Because the aps-c/DX is 1.5 x, my macros "seem to get closer" though it really is just a crop of a part of a lens I am not using. Because of this, aps-c/DX makes it so you don't have to get as close, this increases depth of field. So while I like to control my DOF with having the option of shallowness in other shooting with FF, macros are already shallow so gaining a bit of perceived DOF helps. I use the D200 because Nikon 60mm is a holdover from my Nikon days when I had a full system. I like the 1:1 it gives me and the light size. The Canon 50mm macro is 1:2 and needs an extra $250 adapter to do 1:1. I am not to enthusistic about the sigma 50mm macro either. The D200 also has a built in wireless flash system so I don't have to mount something like the ST-e2, which to me gets in the way sometimes.
"In the end you need to understand FF and why it is useful in it's
different way than DX. I use both systems because where one falls
short, the other fills in."

thats what i really wan tto understand- when or why is full frame
"better"/ "more advantagous" or whatever than a crop. give me
examples so i can make a better decsion to purchased one or not-
thanks sara
--
sara

please visit my gallery -
http://www.pbase.com/fidola13

The paradox of photography is that it is both simple and
complicated in its nature, in that success is achieved through a
combination of technique and personal vision. A zest for life leads
us as photographers to discover what truly exists in the world
around us. Photography is a reflection of life’s energy. Using a
camera, we transmit our feelings, thoughts, and dreams in the form
of images. Life’s stages and interests are documented and revealed
in our photography.
by Randy Romano
 
But there has been FF 35mm
digital since 2002,
really? I tried one in 2000... It was not Canon, but a Contax, to
refresh your memory.
LOL, you may have "tried" the Contax N Digital in 2000, but it
didn't actually make it to the market until some time in 2002!
Contax April 2002 shipped, 1Ds - September 2002 announced
On a scale of 1 to
5, Chasseur d'Images gives the 1N Digital a 1, the lowest possible
rating.
Does not matter, was an important milestone.
yep. market has spoken, and Canon made FF into 400D.
Uh, hello!? The 400D is an entry-level DSLR that was never
supposed to be a FF camera in the first place.
hello you back. so you have a limited understanding of what market is.
Unlike some companies, Canon is able to offer a wide selection of
frame formats
LOL. you even do not know how right you may be. and unlike some car makers, other car makers are able to offer a wide selection of cars. so what?
allowing them to design cameras that are tailored to
the unique needs and desires of different markets.
looks more like different needs, as many of my fellow Canon users have 3 to 5 different bodies, 2 of them having different formats. you know, some shoot wildlife, landscapes, weddings, sports, portraits, candids, architecture... - pretty much everything they are payed for.
Does that mean FF is for everyone?
yes, it is - if it is a versatile and mature FF. ah, we are not there yet...

and in your words, "That's why Canon also continues to offer 1.3x and 1.6x cameras."
You have a choice with Canon.
yes, the only choice with Canon, same as with anything else photographic judging by these forums is to spend more money on less then perfect tools :)

--
Julia
 
Does that mean FF is for everyone?
yes, it is - if it is a versatile and mature FF. ah, we are not
there yet...
There you go again, making the biased judgement that FF is not versatile or mature yet, and therefore is unworthy of considering. Basically, what you really mean is, it'll be "versatile and mature" when Nikon finally gets around to offerring FF!!! But since Canon is the only one that offers it, to you it's "not there yet". Nevermind that Canon FF digital bodies are already in heavy use by some of the most demanding photographers and publications in the world.
and in your words, "That's why Canon also continues to offer 1.3x
and 1.6x cameras."
Oh, so you think that when Canon finally is able to offer a "versatile and mature FF" camera, then they will stop offering 1.3x and 1.6x cameras, as if crop-sensored cameras are simply place-holders until then? Nope. Different sensors for different needs. You seem to be operating under a "one size fits all" philosophy where 1.5x is the "one size that fits all" sensor right now, but when FF becomes "versatile and mature" (whatever that means), then FF is going to be the "one size fits all" sensor for all. But obviously, that's a limiting and dictatorial philosophy, denying consumers the opportunity to make the choice for themselves. FF is here and now (and it's not waiting to reach YOUR arbitrary, idealistic vision of "versatility and maturity"), just as 1.6x and 1.3x are here and now.
 
Does that mean FF is for everyone?
yes, it is - if it is a versatile and mature FF. ah, we are not
there yet...
There you go again
gogo lol.

I consider ff for what it is good for, and as I said, go and preach to Canon, they publically and openly suggested that "cropped" sensors seve better for sports and wildlife.

are you going to buy a half-frame film camera for sports? Minox maybe?

--
Julia
 
...regardless of its maturity because the price of FF sensors relative to sub-35mm sensors will always be higher, limiting the appeal of FF cameras to the vast majority of consumers. Like the 6x4.5cm market before it, FF digital will become the mainstay of well-heeled amateurs, budget-conscious professionals, and pro's with a need for the best possible image quality in the most portable practical form factor.

Until, that is, someone finds a way to dramatically decrease the cost of FF sensor production, namely increasing the yield.

--
Garland Cary
 
I think this is first time I've gotten information from you that a
lay person, like me, and comprehend.
sometimes these forums look a bit claustrophobic. I'm sure you can
easily google all I wrote, and find it explained better, with
schemes and illustrations.
Now, a question, how do microlenses migitate (or not) the nasty
consequences of angles of incidence not optimal for digital sensors
(vignetting, CA, etc.)? Do they really help (significantly), or is
this just marketing hype?
Kodak in their dSLRs skipped microlenses, and got into even more
severe problems.

Rotating microlenses on the periphery of the sensor to bring angles
of incidence to less then 13 degrees (the angle at which the
sensitivity is cut by 2 for current designs) might help.

Retrofocus designs to achieve exit pupil distance of 80 to 90mm
from sensor for half-frame formats and about 130mm for full-frame
will also help.

However wide-angle lenses, especially zooms, with 130mm backfocus
are heavy, may be slow in focus or drain much power, and need very
low distortion glass, or we are getting into CA trap. So it might
be that on a next turn of evolution wides for half-frame will be
easier, better, and cheaper. Of course, given they have reduced
circles of coverage.

Now the interesting thing that if you compare real MTFs of a lens
on film and on digital, they show very significant difference. I
saw this in Germany with Leica using film back and digital back.
That was a sort of good experiment, same body, same lens, steady
bench, Gigabit film, controlled development.
...shouldn't the MTF of a lens be independent of the recording medium? Or am I misunderstanding the application of MTF? I would expect the lens' MTF to be constant, but that film and digital would be variously capable of capturing the modulations (contrasts) resolved by the lens - and I would expect there to be difference between the response of a digital sensor and film. Am I completely wrong about that?

--
Garland Cary
 
...shouldn't the MTF of a lens be independent of the recording
medium?
of course it should. I mean combined MTF (lens + media), and specifically the way how the curves bend depending on the distance from the cener of the media. They bend very differently.

--
Julia
 
While also displaying atypical levels of CA, it seems to perform
better than the Nikkor 14mm.
you need to compare optical designs. Difference in the angle of
incidence is on the sensor side and depends on the optical formula
used.
Yep. But since the distance from the center of the 24x36mm frame to the corner is 22mm, and the distance from the rear element of any lens is on the order of 40mm, at smaller f stops, the angle of incidence is 30 degrees or so from perpendicular. For FF.

IMHO, the whole angle-of-incidence bit is FUD.
pixel density plays role. higher pixel density resolves the
fringing. on D1H you will not be able to see it. on D2H fringing
shows. on D1X it is a waist unless you go into heavy
postprocessing. you can use this lens on cameras that have up to 6
megapixels given those cameras have strong anti-aliasing filters,
like D100.
Yep. This is another reason cramming large numbers of pixels into an APS-C sensor is a dumb idea.
but what is most important, the difference between film and digital
is that digital responds poorly to the light coming at sharp
angles. it causes loss of sensitivity (digital vignetting) and
fringing, when for example portion of the beam tangentially goes
through one color filter and then through the other. this effect
decreases resolution as well.
Again, there are no sharp angles . Nothing anywere close to 45 degrees. So these hypothetical sharp angles aren't causing anything, since they simply don't exist.

Sheesh, can't any Nikonista do grade school greometry???
to overcome this limitation wide angle lenses for digital use
near-telecentric / retrofocus design, essentially being normal
lenses with wide-angle converters.
Uh, the wide angles for FF digital were all designed for film. Some are better (the Zeiss 21/2.8 makes nice sharp corners at f/5.6) and some are worse (the Canon 17-40/4.0 needs to be stopped down to f/11), but they were all designed for film.
The goal is to increase back
focus. Those lenses also use special glass elements to reduce
distortion which now is not compensated automatically through
symmetric design.

for film this is not a problem.
In real life it is. All the film vs. FF digital tests with the same wide lens I've seen have shown that they perform worse on film than digital.
digital exaggerates "true" (common) chromatic aberrations of the
lens compared to film because of the interpolation process. during
raw conversion. id=f any pixel gets "false" color information this
false color is distributed further to adjacent pixels with
demosaicing.
This might be true. But it's something more Nikonistas than Canoninstas will know about (because of the finer pixel pitches, although the 400D will change that).

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
IMHO, the whole angle-of-incidence bit is FUD.
the key word(s) is (are) IMHO.

why they even bother creating "special lenses for digital"? why in sensor specs they bother to draw those graphs demonstrating how sensitivity drops with angle of incidence increase?

Google is dead. (to paraphrase good old Friedrich)

--
Julia
 

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