Canon falling behind Nikon & Sony?

The 20D, 30D and Rebel XT all have at least 1-stop of high-ISO
performance over the 10MP Sony sensor (in the Nikons and Sonys).
Any opinion on the published D80 images? If those are true, then IMHO Nikon has taken a big step to bring usable NR in their cameras.

These I think some are quite promising / threatening however you want to take it http://photo-cafe.jp/scoop/index.html

But then the images here are perhaps not so good http://hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=2016&cid=15&pg=7

So at least I'd wait till some competent done review (like Phil's) before saying anything.
The 5D has another stop and a third over that at the same level of
detail or another half a stop with a huge detail advantage.

The 10MP sensor has a very tiny detail advantage over the 8.2MP
Canon sensor. It should be more but it isn't.

The 5D has a huge detail advantage over the 10MP Sony sensor.

So, if you shoot in good light, the Sony sensor might be a good
alternative if you like the Sony or Nikon systems. In bad light,
the Canons still rule the day, and by a big margin.

Personally, I still feel Canon has a big system advantage overall.
More IS lenses covering a wider range, usually at lower cost
(especially the long primes), lots of short to medium primes with
USM (24/1.4, 28/1.8, 35/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2, 135/2), a fast high-res
low-noise body (1DII series), and the opportunity to move up in
format size if you would like to (5D and 1-series). I carry a 20D
and 5D with 5 lenses, using them differently on the two different
formats. No other manufacturer provides that capability.

Canon does need to do more to attract the brand-new dSLR customer
which is what a lens like the 18-200VR does. People are also still
fooled into believing that more MP = better image quality which is
sad.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
even Paul Pope said Nikon makes the best camera today while Canon
makes the best 'film'. For $8000 don't we deserve the best film in
the BEST camera??
I guess I'd prefer good film to a good camera, if I had to chose. Personally, I like the Canon cameras better than the Nikons too. I haven't seen a Sony.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
The 20D, 30D and Rebel XT all have at least 1-stop of high-ISO
performance over the 10MP Sony sensor (in the Nikons and Sonys).
Any opinion on the published D80 images? If those are true, then
IMHO Nikon has taken a big step to bring usable NR in their cameras.
I didn't look at them but I was under the impression that it was the same sensor as the D200 (is that right?). In-camera software is largely irrelevant (it can make things worse, but not better).

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Hope this thread won't be a base for rumors.
But I am curious.

I just saw the review for the new 10MP Nikon D80 for US$1,000
This is the same MP as the new Sony DSLR for ~$1,000.


And Canon's 5D is still over US$2,500.

Is Canon starting to slip?
Being temporarily behind does not IMHO mean slipping. I guess none of us know what's there in Canon R&D pipe to come out during next 12 months or so.

If Canon has not produced something real tempting by that then I start to think they have at least temporarily drpped behind competition.

It's good to remember the situation was quite similar when in consumer class Canon had just the 300D and Nikon brought out the D70. There Canon was better in noise, but not much elsewhere. Some months later Canon brought the 20D in market, and 6 months after that 350D, and 6 months after that 5D.

So I just think we have now learned Canon is not necessarily in all areas soo much ahead of the competition as we thought and would like to think. I good lesson - at least to me.
The 30D isn't even 6 months old, and is behind the competition with
resolution and price.
Well I really think the competition for D80 or A100 is the 350D (plastic body, 3fps, relatively small buffers, ...) - and there Canon lacks in resolution but not the price.

30D is a class upper and competing against D200 (magnezium body, 5fps, ...). Again lacking in resolution but clearly leading in price.

And then we have the noise issue.
And then there is the Nikon D2x, that has 2 modes.
A 12MP, and then a 6MP 8fps mode.
The best description I have seen for D2X was in one of its magazine review "A good compromize for everything". But if you want the best pro tools D2X has hard time to competed against 1D2 for sport and 1Ds2 for everything else.
Has Nikon finally taken back the top place?
No. Canon is still clearly world #1 in dSLR sales. And has IMHO the best sensor technology portfolio and at least equally good support technology portfolio.
 
The 20D, 30D and Rebel XT all have at least 1-stop of high-ISO
performance over the 10MP Sony sensor (in the Nikons and Sonys).
Any opinion on the published D80 images? If those are true, then
IMHO Nikon has taken a big step to bring usable NR in their cameras.
I didn't look at them but I was under the impression that it was
the same sensor as the D200 (is that right?). In-camera software
is largely irrelevant (it can make things worse, but not better).
My understanding as well is the same sensor, but I have looked the images.
Perhaps you should do that as well ...
--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
My understanding as well is the same sensor, but I have looked the
images.
Perhaps you should do that as well ...
That will just tell me about the in-camera processing. Clean RAWs is what I'm interested in. Are there any sample RAWs available?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
We want bigger and brighter viewfinders now.. Improved focusing
algorithms, more cross sensors, Deeper RAW buffers, lower shutter
lags and important features like permanent ISO display in VF, and
fully customizable Auto ISO etc.
But unfortunately we get only those features the different manufacturers have decided to put in their packages. Your and mine job is then to look to see what package best fit you our needs.

And if you buy either 1D2 or 1Ds2 your get most of what you want ;-)
But I guess you want everything below $1k.
--
I see dead pixels
Where .... ;-)
 
My understanding as well is the same sensor, but I have looked the
images.
Perhaps you should do that as well ...
That will just tell me about the in-camera processing. Clean RAWs
is what I'm interested in. Are there any sample RAWs available?
It's good to remember that this sub-$1k class is targeted for consumers and quite many of those may want to see clear pics out from the camera. For people considering cameras like the 350D (which I have used a lot and lately mostly only RAW, but that's me and not necessarily all 350D users).

And to your question - I have no idea how these pics are generated, and I have no info about any awailable RAW images. But before I see the truth revealed, I'd not start to drum how bad a new untested camera is. Of course that's only my own humble opinion.
--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I switched to Canon from Nikon years ago, and currently have no intent of looking back. However, we need to give Nikon credit where credit is due.

Advantage Nikon:

Autofocus that actually works in a non professional dSLR, and is capable of capturing faster moving subjects than a 3yr old sucking on a popsicle, which is all the 20/30D are worth.

Has awknowledged the APS sensor format actually sucks, and not marketing 30yr old, over-priced, 35mm frame optimized L series coke-bottles as a solution. You need all that clean high ISO to stop down $1,000 Canon zoom lenses to +F8 so they perform like $100 Sigmas.

Advantage Canon:

The 5D.

Users that don't over-sharpen D2X and D200 images to the point they look like over-processed surveillance photos :-)
 
I switched to Canon from Nikon years ago, and currently have no
intent of looking back. However, we need to give Nikon credit where
credit is due.

Advantage Nikon:

Autofocus that actually works in a non professional dSLR, and is
capable of capturing faster moving subjects than a 3yr old sucking
on a popsicle, which is all the 20/30D are worth.
I really do not know how much you have used e.g. 30D, but I think you comment above is total non-sense to say it nicely. True they are not par to 1D series AF, but very usable for example sport I have shooted a lot.

And I'm not so sure of Nikon AF betterness as all test I have seen done between 20D/30D and D200 indicate the Canon's are winning.
Has awknowledged the APS sensor format actually sucks, and not
marketing 30yr old, over-priced, 35mm frame optimized L series
coke-bottles as a solution. You need all that clean high ISO to
stop down $1,000 Canon zoom lenses to +F8 so they perform like $100
Sigmas.
2nd comment showing you do not know what you ate talking about. Sad, so very sad ...
Advantage Canon:

The 5D.

Users that don't over-sharpen D2X and D200 images to the point they
look like over-processed surveillance photos :-)
 
Megapixels ain't everything. It is also how good those pixels are. Things like noise and color fidelity. Canon still has a lead here, and it is a substantial lead as far as noise goes.

The 5D is a unique camera because it is full frame. To me, and many others, that makes it worth $3,000. If you shoot wide angle, there is no comparison to a 5D with a 28 1.8 or 24 1.4. You can not get that look and bokeh with a cropped camera like the Nikon or Sony. Now maybe if somebody made a 18 f1.8 or 15mm f1.4 then cropped cameras would have some of the same potential as the 5D. But that market seems to have been abandoned. Small aperture zooms, no matter how good they are (and some are very good) just can not achieve the same bokeh that a fast prime lens can.

As far as the 30D goes, it is still less expensive than its chief competitor, the 200D and has better noise control.

I think a lot of the megapixel race is marketing hype. But I also think that Canon will be forced to increase the MP count in the 30D successor because most consumers have bought into the hype.

The chief advantage to the Sony is the Image Stabilization built into the body. I would be very surprised to see either Canon or Nikon adopt that technology since they have spent a fortune on their image stabilization lenses.

Jack

--
A few of my photos:
http://web.mac.com/kurtzjack/iWeb/ or
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=4177
 
And to your question - I have no idea how these pics are generated,
and I have no info about any awailable RAW images. But before I see
the truth revealed, I'd not start to drum how bad a new untested
camera is. Of course that's only my own humble opinion.
I'm just commenting about the very, very well-tested sensor. The camera is a different issue, as is the in-camera processing.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Autofocus that actually works in a non professional dSLR, and is capable of capturing faster moving subjects than a 3yr old sucking on a popsicle, which is all the 20/30D are worth.
That's a ridiculous thing to say, Scott.

I've had two D200s, chucked that camera for a 30D, and I have no problem focussing on small, fast-flying birds with the "slow focussing" Canon + 100-400mm IS.



Turnstone: 9 inches long, 30+ mph, 400mm, handheld



Fulmar: head-on with a 20mph tail wind, 400mm, handheld.
 
they are quite close. in very poor light/bad contrast, even the 1 series can't beat the lower end nikons. Borrow a D50 and compare it to your higher end canons and you will believe what I say. the CCD AF sensor in the nikons has a clear advantage there.
 
Advantage Nikon:

Autofocus that actually works in a non professional dSLR, and is
capable of capturing faster moving subjects than a 3yr old sucking
on a popsicle, which is all the 20/30D are worth.
Uh huh. All from a 20D + 70-200/2.8L IS + stacked 1.4x TCs:



















--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
A lot of working pros use 20D/30D bodies every day.
Advantage Nikon:

Autofocus that actually works in a non professional dSLR, and is
capable of capturing faster moving subjects than a 3yr old sucking
on a popsicle, which is all the 20/30D are worth.

Advantage Canon:

The 5D.

Users that don't over-sharpen D2X and D200 images to the point they
look like over-processed surveillance photos :-)
--
A few of my photos:
http://web.mac.com/kurtzjack/iWeb/ or
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=4177
 
To try to be a little visionary then Sony entering to the dSLR market may be the winner in long term. Of sourse, if they will take that seriously and not just want to take the share of the market where Sony camcorder owner finds dSLR with the same label. Sony has enormous potential and, far of that, they do not start from emply plot. Sony's consumer and professional cameras are better in noiste control, overall picture quality - basicly in all field of innovative developments. Canon ist running a mile behind. But, if Sony is serious, what will be the future for Nicon? Does Sony like to supply it with best sensors? About Canon. It was disappointment that D80 is not a real 30D killer with 1000$ price tag. That could bring the 30D and following model's price down. But - untill the forums are full of happy 30D owners (we have a superior camera!) Canon keeps prices as far as competitors allow. BTW, Canon's picture is soft, and definitely not being a specialist, how much of low noise originates from that feature? So the better does Sony, the better will be in Canon consumers camp. About Nikon's fate, I wish the best.
 
Im a canon user my self.There is no doubt canon is by far the king...unfotunately for all of us having to pay 6 grand+ for a DS2...by the way I used a friends d200 and image quality on 800 iso and above is Garbage,only I did not mention that to my friend not to hurt his feelings.BTW d200 is razor sharp in the studio,and it feels like a really nice camera...
--
http://www.pahountis.gr
 
Resolution up to 16mp... just Canon

Options of either full frame or 1.6x... just canon

Widest selection oif lenses/Best high iso performance/Constant leading edge products... Canon

So, Canon is ahead in MPs, noise and chip sizes.

Wait, who's falling behind?
 

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