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When to be natural or not with the F30........

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Hi Packy,

Definitely the 2nd one - better color tone and sharper. The second one is also warmer. It appears you did very subtle and very good processing - without changing much, you made the photo appear a whole lot better to the viewing eye. Good job!
--
My best, Tom S.
 
Looks very nice. I wonder what it would have looked like if packy had tried Chrome mode? I assume its somewhat similar to Provia, though im not sure if its as good.
--

 
I like your PP'ed version out of all the processed ones best Packy. You did a nice, not over the top job with it. Heres one I shot today:



And Here it is PP'ed (note Im very new to PP so tell me how Im getting along - I added Local Contrast, messed with Curves and Shadows/Highlights a little.

PP:



--

 
packy said:
KendallP said:
2nd one.

Would the "Landscape" mode on the F30 punch things up a bit?
Click to expand...
To be honest Kendall, I don't know. I don't think I have ever
touched a scene mode on a camera yet!! Must give it a try.
Click to expand...
You should. Fuji engineers seem to have done a good job in the F series cameras.
packy said:
A few
things off hand that I wouldn't fancy with landscape mode is first
the white balance would be fixed at auto which for me gives off too
blue a cast.
Click to expand...
From my experiments, watching the LCD, I believe the WB in SP Landscape is set at Fine, which would be logical. But actually, in a test comparing Auto with Landscape, Auto WB closely matched Fine.
packy said:
I use preset WB fine or shade which helps.
Click to expand...
Shade is for a subject solely illuminated by blue sky, which is hard to imagine for a landscape. Note, in overcast conditions, the clouds illuminate the landscape with the light the color of the sun AND blue sky above them.
packy said:
Second I'd
like to set the aperture myself not exceeding f5. If in landscape
mode selects something like f8 then detail may suffer from lens
defraction.
Click to expand...
In a test on bright day in Phoenix, it chose f8. which is slightly off the peak around f5, but probably had to detect. I think Landscape may be aiming for more DOF.
packy said:
And lastly, it might boost saturation with chrome,
which I think is horrible and much prefer to do it in CS2 either
with curves or with hue/saturation.
Click to expand...
The manual does say Landscape makes colors more vivid, which might correspond to the chrome choice.

A test I made comparing Landscape with Auto showed more contrast, which tends to make sky look more saturated compared to clouds. Shadows were darker, but cloud highlights were less blown. These effects could have resulted from the Average photometry used in Landscape, vs the Multi/Pattern used in Auto The aim point was a relativbely dark tree. The exp comp was 0. I didn't see more saturation beond he effects of more contrast. I'm going to post the pics from this test (with histograms) in a few days.>
packy said:
Packy
Click to expand...
--
Russell
Galleries at http://www.pbase.com/russ
 
Hi Packy,

I like the PPed one.

BR,

Danny
 
That's pretty good Sinan and looks about right too me. I bit more and the greens can become unrealistic. My A700 by default give horrible oversaturated greens, thankfully the greens, reds and blue's saturation can be altered individually which is nice as I can tone down the greens and pump up the blue skies and adjust to contrast and sharpness all in the one go to leave my landscapes with little pp work to do.
--
*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
 
Thanks Packy, I wasnt sure if I had already overdone it a little, but I think its OK. Yes, the individually adjustable components of the RGB's is nice in the Canons. Fuji should really offer more in camera options when it coomes to saturation, contrast, NR, etc etc..

On another note - im starting to mess around with PS CS2, I created a thread for wdyspt for today and posted a shot I medded with in CS2, desaturating some channels, adding local contrast etc.. Im getting used to making adjustment on an image, but I really have to start learning layers, masks, etc for more creative stuff. PS CS2 is one sick progra - it seems theres nothing you cant do it on it.

Regards,
Sinan
packy said:
That's pretty good Sinan and looks about right too me. I bit more
and the greens can become unrealistic. My A700 by default give
horrible oversaturated greens, thankfully the greens, reds and
blue's saturation can be altered individually which is nice as I
can tone down the greens and pump up the blue skies and adjust to
contrast and sharpness all in the one go to leave my landscapes
with little pp work to do.
--
*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
Click to expand...
--

 
--

 
hi packy...i prefer your pp'd version...i also like kim's variations...i tend to like pushing color and feel in my images...i'm just starting to use the f30 myself so i haven't really started destroying 'em...yet...

also depends what the use is...for something editorial, book covers etc...an image that's dark, grainy, mysterious, wild might be appropriate...if you're doin' landscape photography then less so...

i like having fun with the images...i don't treat them as sacred...

m
packy said:
As F30 users may know, this camera produces excellent natural and
faithful colors representing the scene thats being photographed.
But is natural always good and the correct option for a particular
scene?..... and do F30 users use natural colors all the time or do
they tweak a bit to give their images a bit more punch? What are
your views and thoughts?.....healthy debates thoughts and imputs
welcome......personal jibes keep to oneself please.
Here's a landscape I took yesterday. Top one is untouched original
straight out of the camera and is pretty close to the scene in
reproduction bar a bit flat looking, bottom is post processed with
levels adjustment, shadows opened a bit, small bit of saturation
and a smart sharpen and doesn't represent the scene faithfully.
Which one would you prefer and why?....Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
packy said:


--
*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
Click to expand...
 
I don't use the f30 but in general I like most, not all, photos to look as natural as possible, especially when it comes to sharpening. A little contrast adjustment or extra color saturation can be great but I hate the unnatural look that sharpening gives to photos. I rarely ever do it.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
Sinan Tarlan said:
Thanks Packy, I wasnt sure if I had already overdone it a little,
but I think its OK. Yes, the individually adjustable components of
the RGB's is nice in the Canons. Fuji should really offer more in
camera options when it coomes to saturation, contrast, NR, etc etc..
Click to expand...
CS2 can do more in that area anyway ... as you saw with my F10 shots. I have actions set up for my favourite tweaks ... for example a warming action, a color boost action, a sharpening/contrast action, a local contrast action for when the sharpening/contrast action is too strong, and so on ...
SFT007 said:
On another note - im starting to mess around with PS CS2, I created
a thread for wdyspt for today and posted a shot I medded with in
CS2, desaturating some channels, adding local contrast etc.. Im
getting used to making adjustment on an image, but I really have to
start learning layers, masks, etc for more creative stuff. PS CS2
is one sick progra - it seems theres nothing you cant do it on it.
Click to expand...
For shots with buildings in them, you need to try out the lense correction filter. It can fix perspective in shots with buildings, which almost always show strong keystoning, the tendency to lean away from you. In this case the building leans a bit backwards and the horizon is a bit tilted. Applying both corrections brings us here:



--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
 
Russ Yost said:
From my experiments, watching the LCD, I believe the WB in SP
Landscape is set at Fine, which would be logical. But actually,
in a test comparing Auto with Landscape, Auto WB closely matched
Fine.
Shade is for a subject solely illuminated by blue sky, which is
hard to imagine for a landscape. Note, in overcast conditions, the
clouds illuminate the landscape with the light the color of the sun
AND blue sky above them.
Click to expand...
Watching the LCD is no way to judge WB for me. Viewing the results on screen is. I took a test shot of a landscape with overcast sky and in sunny conditions and the results were to me when viewed on screen:

Overcast: AWB and fine were suprisingly identical looking and represented the scene fairly accurately. Shade unsuprisingly was warmer. So fine or AWB is good for overcast to me, those who prefer a warmer image should use shade.

Sunny: AWB was very cool and colors washed out looking. Fine was warmer and gave the image a bit of a lift and was more accurate looking to the scene. Shade was warmer again. So here to me AWB did a bad job and fine is the one to use here unless you want to exaggerate an warm evening sunset and use shade.

I still can't imagine the preset "fine" white balance being soley used in a landscape mode as it is only covering ONE type of lighting all though it worked well for overcast and sunny. You don't neccessarily have to take a landscape shot by day or landscapes might not neccessarily be countrysides, but could be of a cityscape at night where stuck in fine WB would give a bad orange cast. Or to the other scale the landscape could be of a snow scene that needs a real cool look deeper than an overcast day and where fine WB would be too warm looking for that scene too. So AWB would be the obvious choice I would think to deal with different enviornments and lighting but I could be wrong.
Russ Yost said:
In a test on bright day in Phoenix, it chose f8. which is slightly
off the peak around f5, but probably had to detect. I think
Landscape may be aiming for more DOF.
Click to expand...
So I was right here and landscape can go to F8 which will lead to some detail loss from defraction of the lens. I find f4 - f5 to be optimum for the lens, and for me more than enough depth of field on these small sensors. So that's why I don't use scene modes because of lack of control. The only one I could see myself using is fireworks as it's focus is set to infinity, where locking onto a sky would be almost impossible with any other setting. This is where lack of full manual controls and manual focus to infinity comes into play which are not on the F30.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
 
packy said:
Russ Yost said:
From my experiments, watching the LCD, I believe the WB in SP
Landscape is set at Fine, which would be logical. But actually,
in a test comparing Auto with Landscape, Auto WB closely matched
Fine.
Shade is for a subject solely illuminated by blue sky, which is
hard to imagine for a landscape. Note, in overcast conditions, the
clouds illuminate the landscape with the light the color of the sun
AND blue sky above them.
Click to expand...
Watching the LCD is no way to judge WB for me.
Click to expand...
I aimed the camera at a white wall with tungsten illumination. First in Manual with WB set to Fine, then in SP Landscape. On the LCD the wall appeared the same "tan" color. I snapped a shot in each mode and compared the LCD Display images, using the 6 thumbnail display mode so I could see the two images side by side. They looked identical in color, to me. I'm quite sure the PC monitor screen will give the same result.
packy said:
Viewing the results
on screen is. I took a test shot of a landscape with overcast sky
and in sunny conditions and the results were to me when viewed on
screen:
Overcast: AWB and fine were suprisingly identical looking and
represented the scene fairly accurately. Shade unsuprisingly was
warmer. So fine or AWB is good for overcast to me, those who prefer
a warmer image should use shade.
Sunny: AWB was very cool and colors washed out looking. Fine was
warmer and gave the image a bit of a lift and was more accurate
looking to the scene.
Click to expand...
I shot the same scene in SP Landscape (WB = Fine) and Auto (WB=Auto) and the the colors in the two scenes are practically identical, except for somewhat more contrast in SP Landscape mode. Your result must have resulted from some difference in the scenes.
packy said:
Shade was warmer again. So here to me AWB did
a bad job and fine is the one to use here unless you want to
exaggerate an warm evening sunset and use shade.
Click to expand...
packy said:
I still can't imagine the preset "fine" white balance being soley
used in a landscape mode as it is only covering ONE type of
lighting all though it worked well for overcast and sunny.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about setting the camera in the SP Landscape mode in which the user has no control over WB. (Apparently, the user can't control WB in ANY SP mode, judging from the Shooting Menu.) I'm not talking about what sort of scene you're shooting nor whether SP Landscape is appropriate. In what follows, you use "landscape" to describe a type of scene, not the mode the camera is in.
packy said:
You
don't neccessarily have to take a landscape shot by day or
landscapes might not neccessarily be countrysides, but could be of
a cityscape at night where stuck in fine WB would give a bad orange
cast. Or to the other scale the landscape could be of a snow scene
that needs a real cool look deeper than an overcast day and where
fine WB would be too warm looking for that scene too. So AWB would
be the obvious choice I would think to deal with different
enviornments and lighting but I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
I agree, but you don't have Auto WB in SP Landscape mode.
packy said:
packy said:
In a test on bright day in Phoenix, it chose f8. which is slightly
off the peak around f5, but probably had to detect. I think
Landscape may be aiming for more DOF.
Click to expand...
So I was right here and landscape can go to F8 which will lead to
some detail loss from defraction of the lens. I find f4 - f5 to be
optimum for the lens, and for me more than enough depth of field on
these small sensors. So that's why I don't use scene modes because
of lack of control. The only one I could see myself using is
fireworks as it's focus is set to infinity, where locking onto a
sky would be almost impossible with any other setting.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that infinity setting? I recall the manual saying if AF doesn't work, place subject about 2 meters from the camera. DOF may be enough to "include" infinity to give you sharp images. I don't think the F30 has any way to set the focus at infinity, it has only the AF system and I'm guessing when you turn on the camera in shooting mode before AF has worked, the lens starts focused at 2 meters.

One could check by using the LCD magnify control looking at a star's image in the shooting mode. I just tried that and saw about equal sharpness at 2 meters and at 20 meters. I shot a pic aiming under my desk and see that it used f8 (badly underexposed), so I guess DOF would include infinity. I'm guessing in SP Fireworks, the AF system is "disabled" and f8 is forced to get sharp images at "infinity".

Determining how the various SP's are implemented is challenging! I wonder if Fuji has published a "white paper" explaining that?
packy said:
This is
where lack of full manual controls and manual focus to infinity
comes into play which are not on the F30.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
Click to expand...
--
Russell
Galleries at http://www.pbase.com/russ
 
Russ Yost said:
I aimed the camera at a white wall with tungsten illumination.
First in Manual with WB set to Fine, then in SP Landscape. On the
LCD the wall appeared the same "tan" color. I snapped a shot in
each mode and compared the LCD Display images, using the 6
thumbnail display mode so I could see the two images side by side.
They looked identical in color, to me. I'm quite sure the PC
monitor screen will give the same result.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why you shot a tunsten lit wall. This is artificial lighting. My tests were done with real world landscapes under real world natural lighting. Am I missing something with your test because it seem a bit flawed to me.
Russ Yost said:
I shot the same scene in SP Landscape (WB = Fine) and Auto
(WB=Auto) and the the colors in the two scenes are practically
identical, except for somewhat more contrast in SP Landscape mode.
Your result must have resulted from some difference in the scenes.
Click to expand...
Nope. they were of the same scene, same framing, same exposure time and the three shots of the different white balance were taking within four seconds of each other. What scene did you shoot because if it's still the wall with artificial lighting then that is useless for the test as it's all about natural lighting. If you want to swap photos and post them here no problems. I have the two scenes both overcast and sunny all under controlled testing, same ISO, exposure time, framing, and shot within a few seconds of each. Are yours done under controlled parameters, because it doesn't sound like it?
Russ Yost said:
I'm talking about setting the camera in the SP Landscape mode in
which the user has no control over WB. (Apparently, the user can't
control WB in ANY SP mode, judging from the Shooting Menu.) I'm not
talking about what sort of scene you're shooting nor whether SP
Landscape is appropriate. In what follows, you use "landscape" to
describe a type of scene, not the mode the camera is in.
Click to expand...
Well, we were talking about what WB the SP landscape is using. And my assumption is that because there are different types of landscapes with different types of lighting, then it doesn't make sense to me to have the white balance set to 'fine' and fixed for one particular type of lighting as you suggested in an ealier post. It would make more sense to have the WB on auto and adjustable to different lighting which I believe it is.
Russ Yost said:
Are you sure about that infinity setting? I recall the manual
saying if AF doesn't work, place subject about 2 meters from the
camera.
Click to expand...
Yes I'm sure. Set the camera on aperture priority. Shoot at a pure white piece of paper. You won't get focus, the red AF warning will appear. Switch to fireworks. Shoot the white paper again. It will focus without an AF warning, which means there is some kind of infinity setting in the fireworks mode which makes sense as you are shooting and trying to get focus on a dark black sky a lot of the times just before the fireworks explode.

Also what the manual don't tell you if you focus on the subject 2 meters away, you will have to lock focus which will also lock the exposure for that particular section of the scene, but which could be a completly difference exposure for the scene that you want to use when you reframe. Example, if you want to shoot the sky only, and can't get focus because of lack of contrast, then if you focus on something 2 meters in front of you and you then reframe for the sky, the exposure that you locked in front of you will be totally different that you need for the sky. That's why for me having a proper manaul focus from 10 feet to infinity like on my A700, is superior to the ridiculous workaround that they give you in the manual, even though you will achieve focus from 2 meters to infinity, but a lot of the times you will not have the proper exposure that you require.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
 
packy said:
Russ Yost said:
I aimed the camera at a white wall with tungsten illumination.
First in Manual with WB set to Fine, then in SP Landscape. On the
LCD the wall appeared the same "tan" color. I snapped a shot in
each mode and compared the LCD Display images, using the 6
thumbnail display mode so I could see the two images side by side.
They looked identical in color, to me. I'm quite sure the PC
monitor screen will give the same result.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
packy said:
I don't understand why you shot a tunsten lit wall. This is
artificial lighting. My tests were done with real world landscapes
under real world natural lighting. Am I missing something with your
test because it seem a bit flawed to me.
Click to expand...
Purpose was to identify WB used in each mode, so I needed a single color. In the same test scene, Auto WB rendered the wall white.
packy said:
packy said:
I shot the same scene in SP Landscape (WB = Fine) and Auto
(WB=Auto) and the the colors in the two scenes are practically
identical, except for somewhat more contrast in SP Landscape mode.
Your result must have resulted from some difference in the scenes.
Click to expand...
Nope. they were of the same scene, same framing, same exposure time
and the three shots of the different white balance were taking
within four seconds of each other. What scene did you shoot because
if it's still the wall with artificial lighting then that is
useless for the test as it's all about natural lighting. If you
want to swap photos and post them here no problems. I have the two
scenes both overcast and sunny all under controlled testing, same
ISO, exposure time, framing, and shot within a few seconds of each.
Are yours done under controlled parameters, because it doesn't
sound like it?
Click to expand...
Here are the images:







For comments, go to

http://www.pbase.com/russ/lsauto
packy said:
packy said:
I'm talking about setting the camera in the SP Landscape mode in
which the user has no control over WB. (Apparently, the user can't
control WB in ANY SP mode, judging from the Shooting Menu.) I'm not
talking about what sort of scene you're shooting nor whether SP
Landscape is appropriate. In what follows, you use "landscape" to
describe a type of scene, not the mode the camera is in.
Click to expand...
Well, we were talking about what WB the SP landscape is using. And
my assumption is that because there are different types of
landscapes with different types of lighting, then it doesn't make
sense to me to have the white balance set to 'fine' and fixed for
one particular type of lighting as you suggested in an ealier post.
It would make more sense to have the WB on auto and adjustable to
different lighting which I believe it is.
packy said:
Are you sure about that infinity setting? I recall the manual
saying if AF doesn't work, place subject about 2 meters from the
camera.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
packy said:
Yes I'm sure. Set the camera on aperture priority. Shoot at a pure
white piece of paper. You won't get focus, the red AF warning will
appear. Switch to fireworks. Shoot the white paper again. It will
focus
Click to expand...
at infinity? - how do you know?
packy said:
without an AF warning,
Click to expand...
could be because AF is disabled.
packy said:
which means there is some kind of
infinity setting in the fireworks mode which makes sense as you are
shooting and trying to get focus on a dark black sky a lot of the
times just before the fireworks explode.
Click to expand...
You may be right, Packy, but it would be a more expensive approach. AF lens moving system needs to go "beyond" infiinity (to find highest contrast at infinity), so an extra mechanical "stop" would be needed at infinity for ONLY the fireworks mode. $$!
packy said:
Also what the manual don't tell you if you focus on the subject 2
meters away, you will have to lock focus which will also lock the
exposure for that particular section of the scene, but which could
be a completly difference exposure for the scene that you want to
use when you reframe. Example, if you want to shoot the sky only,
and can't get focus because of lack of contrast, then if you focus
on something 2 meters in front of you and you then reframe for the
sky, the exposure that you locked in front of you will be totally
different that you need for the sky.
Click to expand...
You're right, Packy.

? That's why for me having a
packy said:
proper manaul focus from 10 feet to infinity like on my A700, is
superior to the ridiculous workaround that they give you in the
manual, even though you will achieve focus from 2 meters to
infinity, but a lot of the times you will not have the proper
exposure that you require.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff
Click to expand...
--
Russell
Galleries at http://www.pbase.com/russ
 
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