Sony & Pentax stronger than Canon/Nikon

I have been looking at the Alpha dslr of Sony and cannot help but realise that it is a huge contender with Sony powess/array of options and lens above all IS.
Also Pentax has scored as well by pulling rug undeaneath both Nikon/Canon.

Now I can see that both Canon and Nikon are in trouble as their main cashcow (IS or VR on the lens) will be decimated. If I have invested thousands in IS/VR lens I will be very p_ _ _ ed and very hesitated to increase any more of those lens. Nikon is in worse shape and Canon has a lot to loose too.
Is that what you think?

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

ps I have to retype p_ _ _ ed before I am allowed to post this . The reason was that the language was not allowed. Cool Man

We have to see what new K10d has to offer. I think Nikon will be one who will feel the heat of Sony not Canon. Canon simply has too big share on market. If K10d is great camera than I think Pentax can take small share of market (but I do think it will be very small)
--
Fero Novak, London

Hi Daniel!

D TONG said:

Now I can see that both Canon and Nikon are in trouble as their
main cashcow (IS or VR on the lens) will be decimated.

Click to expand...

Do you really think they make much money with it? Somehow I don't think so. BTW, amidst the D80 "leak", there was a consumer grade VR lens by Nikon.

I won't make any predictions before Photokina

Cheers
Jens

--
'LBA knows no bounds, and seeks no justification...' (Jim King, 2005)
http://www.jr-worldwi.de/photo/index.html - Photography, Tech and Geek stuff :}
'Why is everyone answering rhetorical questions?' (Me, 2005)

JensR said:

JensR said:

Now I can see that both Canon and Nikon are in trouble as their
main cashcow (IS or VR on the lens) will be decimated.

Click to expand...

Do you really think they make much money with it? Somehow I don't
think so. BTW, amidst the D80 "leak", there was a consumer grade VR
lens by Nikon.

I won't make any predictions before Photokina

Click to expand...

Hi Jens

Are you going to Photokina?

I was considering the first 2 days. I have an invite from JD (Pentax UK) to visit the inner sanctum of the Pentax stand on either of those days.
--
Richard Day - 'Carpe Diem!'
Gloucester UK

I think Canon has in the digital era made themselves "the camera company" and I don't think they are in danger from anyone. Nikon however, I'm not so optimistic about. I think the future will include canon as the largest camera company and the technology leader, while Nikon Sony/km pentax/samsung and fuji all occupy various niche segments in the market. The sony has an impressive list of features, but although I have not tried one, I highly suspect that features alone do not make a camera successful, and they certainly don't make me interested in one. Also we forget that Samsung is catching sony quite quickly all across the consumer electronics spectrum, so for all we know, it could be pentax/samsung that becomes the #2 camera company.

I think despite the sales volume that the best feature set allows, it is image quality that makes or breaks a camera company. Nikon has been the leader in both features and image quallity for some time but it seems to me that that is changing.

Dave

From a corporate standpoint they will still feel the heat if it's there.

Even in a company with a 90% market share (I don't know what canons or anyone elses actual market share is in this case), the boss does not want to hear that you lost 5% of it or even 2% of it or even 1% of it or even less.

Look at the aggression of intel or microsoft.

It might be easier to stay on top than to get on top; but, it's still not that easy.

• mike

D TONG said:

Nikon is in worse shape and Canon has a lot to loose too.
Is that what you think?

Click to expand...

I think neither Canon nor Nikon are really worried. This only affects
new purchasers, but all the C/N users that have glass already.... and
there are a LOT of them... will go with what they already have.

I think this will only affect whether or not either company makes
$4,169,245 in profits, as compared to $4,490,201 in profits for
the year. I could be wrong, but, hey, that is what makes this
sort of analyzing a fun activity. )

D TONG said:

ps I have to retype p_ _ _ ed before I am allowed to post this .
The reason was that the language was not allowed. Cool Man

Click to expand...

Yeah, I have run afoul of that lanugage too... and what I wanted
to post really was not bad. I guess this satisfies those who worry
about those types of things.

--
Gil
Sardis, BC
Canada

My opinion is that owners of C$n$n and N*k*n are quiet conservative and will defend their system (in spirit if not yet in mind.)

I happened to read a thraed in another (Belgian) forum of someone with a C$n$n defending IS by saying that it's better, because IS is an optical design. The man stated that with the last generation of IS a 4 stop gain would be achieved whereas the gain of AS/SR would only be 2 stops...

IMHO this reasoning doesn't make the least of sense because one should bare in mind that a lens with IS can't be as sharp as one without and that the gain of a stabilisation system is also variable of the person handling the camera.

Nevertheless, comes to show that Sony may not have an easy time winning marketshare...

Cheers
Marc
--
See my photos at
http://www.marcist.be/MarcFoto/index.php

The Pentax venture with Samsung will help. Pentax is a good innovator on the camera side and Samsung can help a lot with the electronics end. What Pentax needs to do is market the cameras. They should keep far from the old cutesy style they used to do and push their system as serious, high quality and portable. Basically, it is Leica for the common man's budget.

Hi Richard!

richardday said:

Are you going to Photokina?

Click to expand...

I had not planned to do so, see below.

richardday said:

I was considering the first 2 days.

Click to expand...

You are coming over the Channel for two days of Photokina??
Probably I am missing something, but what can one do at a photofair like that?

Cheers
Jens

--
'LBA knows no bounds, and seeks no justification...' (Jim King, 2005)
http://www.jr-worldwi.de/photo/index.html - Photography, Tech and Geek stuff :}
'Why is everyone answering rhetorical questions?' (Me, 2005)

Depending on how successful these cameras with sensor anti-shake are, both C and N may be forced to offer sensor anti-shake in addition to IS/VR lenses. It would be a painful decision for them, but if they start lsing market share...

I don't know if it is technically/physically possible to combine the two for even better results. But even if not, I am guessing C and N will tout the advantages of using the lens VR/IS (higher profits) but also offer sensor anti-shake to remain competitive.

I think it's too early to tell what kind of impact they will have, although there are some early positive signs for both the Sony A100 and the Pentax K100D.

D TONG said:

I have been looking at the Alpha dslr of Sony and cannot help but
realise that it is a huge contender with Sony powess/array of
options and lens above all IS.
Also Pentax has scored as well by pulling rug undeaneath both
Nikon/Canon.

Now I can see that both Canon and Nikon are in trouble as their
main cashcow (IS or VR on the lens) will be decimated. If I have
invested thousands in IS/VR lens I will be very p_ _ _ ed and
very hesitated to increase any more of those lens. Nikon is in
worse shape and Canon has a lot to loose too.
Is that what you think?

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

ps I have to retype p_ _ _ ed before I am allowed to post this .
The reason was that the language was not allowed. Cool Man

Click to expand...

--
My boring photography blog: http://photographyetc.livejournal.com

JensR said:

JensR said:

Are you going to Photokina?

Click to expand...

I had not planned to do so, see below.

JensR said:

I was considering the first 2 days.

Click to expand...

You are coming over the Channel for two days of Photokina??
Probably I am missing something, but what can one do at a photofair
like that?

Click to expand...

The reason for the trip is to visit Cologne, and while there spend 2 to 3 hours at the fair as it's nice to have the chance to see and try some new stuff, but there's not much I'm interested in, so the time required is fairly minimal. Then spend 2 to 3 days looking around and photographing Cologne, plus enjoying the cuisine and atmosphere of one of the oldest cities in Europe.

There are some very low cost air fares available, the challenge is finding decent reasonably priced accomodation in the vicinity.

We were also considering a B&B/motel outside of the city, but on a train/bus link to the city, or else come over by ferry with the car. I can get a ferry + a full car for £48.00 return and the fuel costs would make it about £100 all together, which is less than the flights for 4 people forgetting the travel to and from airports etc., there's still the accomodation challenges, but they're much less due to having the car, so we can look for nearby country locations.

Also, the Channel is only 22 miles (30 km) wide! I know it proved a stumbling block for a couple of Dictators over the last couple of centuries, but we have sorted that out now! Dover is not much further from my home (320 km) than Cologne is from Dunkirque (375 km).

Any other suggestions? Apart from staying home and reading what others have to say about any new stuff! Okay, I agree that it's often the cheapest and fastest method!

The only challenge with this system is you can't try the new stuff out yourself (almost impossible at a dealers, 'cos they don't stock much Pentax) don't meet interesting people from other cultures, can't take nice photos of interesting new places, and enjoy new food and drink! ;-)

Isn't that why you travelled 1/2 way round the world to Oz and NZ? - I'm only talking about Cologne!
--
Richard Day - 'Carpe Diem!'
Gloucester UK

business success is not only about product quality (IT people may remember DEC, Cray, ...)

--
http://rmotfage.free.fr/gallery

Why should N/C feel threatened? K100D is no better than an old Minolta 5d. There is no breakthrough here. I don't see people throwing away their lens collections to move to Pentax.

Joe

D TONG said:

Now I can see that both Canon and Nikon are in trouble as their
main cashcow (IS or VR on the lens) will be decimated.

Click to expand...

I rember reading the same comment when the KM 7D was released. We all know what happened to KM.

I hope Pentax does well, we all benefit. But there are some distinct advantages to in-lens IS.

First, you can see the stabilization effect in the viewfinder. This is beneficial because I believe there is an almost a biofeedback response involved here. As you handhold the Canon 5D with a 24-105L IS lens, you can observe the effect of IS in the viewfinder, and I belive the feedback allows you to get even better stabilazation. At the very least I do believe that it will give a better percentage of keepers, as you know exactly when to trip the shutter.

After using the K100D for a few days, I have noticed that, firstly, it is a bit disconcerting to not be able to get any feedback as to how well the image is being stabilized. Secondly, I have noticed that getting a sharp image is somewhat a hit-or-miss affair. In order to be sure you have gotten one really sharp image, you do have to shoot a volley of three or four.

Also keep in mind that Pentax and Sony's Sr is partially offset by the superior high ISO performance of the Canon's. Also, SR does you no good if your subject is moving.

One final advantage of IS, particularly in the Canon long lenses, is the ability to accurately frame. I can imagine it would be quite difficult to frame well with the the image jumping around in the finder.

One last comment. I read in an interview with a Canon exec, that if they feel the need to, they have the technology to implement a sensor-based IS system.

It would be possible to show sensor antishake in the viewfinder. It would take another system to move the viewfinder optics to match the sensor movement. Similar to P&S cameras that zoomed the viewfinder to match the zoom lens. Is it worth it? Who knows.
thanks
--
barondla

even if it was revolutionary nobody in thier right mind would abandon the C or N lenses for nonexsistant pentax glass! while i truly hope for a solid pro body from pentax there is still the issue of no pro glass availible and the 3rd party's still don't take them serious either!

barondla said:

It would be possible to show sensor antishake in the viewfinder. It
would take another system to move the viewfinder optics to match
the sensor movement. Similar to P&S cameras that zoomed the
viewfinder to match the zoom lens. Is it worth it? Who knows.
thanks

Click to expand...

A better and certainly more practical solution would be an EVF, and electronic viewfinder.

D TONG said:

I have been looking at the Alpha dslr of Sony and cannot help but
realise that it is a huge contender with Sony powess/array of
options and lens above all IS.
Also Pentax has scored as well by pulling rug undeaneath both
Nikon/Canon.

Now I can see that both Canon and Nikon are in trouble as their
main cashcow (IS or VR on the lens) will be decimated. If I have
invested thousands in IS/VR lens I will be very p_ _ _ ed and
very hesitated to increase any more of those lens. Nikon is in
worse shape and Canon has a lot to loose too.
Is that what you think?

Click to expand...

If Pentax/Samsung can pull out a 10mp Samsung CMOS sensor body with noise comparable to the Canon CMOS sensors (in other word, better than the Sony 10mp CCD in the D200) at a good price point, I think Nikon would have something to think about.

Throw in the in-body SR, and you would have something that Nikon could not match with any sort of body/in-lens SR system. The system cost is just too high for many people to swallow.

Nikon does not play in medium format, and does not have a FF DSLR, and I think the D200 has shown that the current state of technology on the APS-C CCD is such that they cannot push beyond 10 - 12mp right now without a significant cost in noise performance. In fact, many might argue that the 10mp D200 noise performance is not acceptable. I do not shoot above ISO 400 very often and am old enough to have shot lots of film, so I do not count myself in that camp, but one does get spoiled by the look of a clean low-noise digital image (how quickly we forget!).

Loyalists will not (do not) care and would not abandon Nikon, but a fast 10mp CMOS semi-pro body from Pentax/Samsung priced below the D200 would be a winner, I think. Otherwise, it will be more like the Alpha from Sony, which still raises the bar a bit on noise versus Nikon and a also ups the ante in terms of pricing, but is not a clear D200 killer.

No, the Alpha does not compete in some areas that tyros and Pros care about (speed, weather sealing), but most do not need blazing fast speed and a weather proof camera. If nothing else, Pentax/Samsung will not be able to sell too much beyond the Alpha pricing, so we Pentax users can all thank Sony for the Alpha pricing.

Samsung has released smaller CMOS sensor designs that are quite innovative and that perform very well, so while it may not be likely to happen this fall, I cannot imagine Samsung selling Sony sensors for very long.

Hopefully, it will not be too much later as the market will not wait for Pentax forever.

Ray

Hi Richard!

richardday said:

The reason for the trip is to visit Cologne, and while there spend
2 to 3 hours at the fair as it's nice to have the chance to see and
try some new stuff,

Click to expand...

Ah, this makes more sense than wandering around Photokina for two days

richardday said:

There are some very low cost air fares available, the challenge is
finding decent reasonably priced accomodation in the vicinity.

Click to expand...

Hm, I live 220 km away :-/

richardday said:

etc., there's still the accomodation challenges, but they're much
less due to having the car, so we can look for nearby country
locations.

Click to expand...

Well, if you can get 4 people in a car and are confident driving on the right side of the road, why not.

richardday said:

Also, the Channel is only 22 miles (30 km) wide! I know it proved
a stumbling block for a couple of Dictators over the last couple of
centuries, but we have sorted that out now!

Click to expand...

The dictators? I hope so!

richardday said:

Isn't that why you travelled 1/2 way round the world to Oz and NZ?

Click to expand...

Yes, but not because of a camera fair

Cheers
Jens

--
'LBA knows no bounds, and seeks no justification...' (Jim King, 2005)
http://www.jr-worldwi.de/photo/index.html - Photography, Tech and Geek stuff :}
'Why is everyone answering rhetorical questions?' (Me, 2005)