Tired of "I/we don't need more resolution" comments

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ron Parr
  • Start date Start date
I'd really like to see some more Foveon-type sensors out there.
Since you get the same resolution at 1/3 or 1/4 of the photosites,
You don't get the same resolution, no matter how many times people
say it. You get better resolution of red vs blue, or either vs
black per pixel, but luminance resolution of greyscale and
unsaturated detail is not much better than a Bayer, per pixel. The
image is sharper due to aliasing; sharpness is not resolution or
detail.
In fact, the luminance resolution is equivalent to a Bayer pattern sensor with about 2X the number of pixels (where pixels for both are defined in the X-Y plane). This matches what the approximation of treating green pixels as luminance detectors predicts quite well. A 3.4 MP Foveon sensor falls somewhere between a 6MP and 8MP Bayer pattern sensor on resolution chart tests.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I'd really like to see some more Foveon-type sensors out there.
Since you get the same resolution at 1/3 or 1/4 of the photosites,
You don't get the same resolution, no matter how many times people
say it. You get better resolution of red vs blue, or either vs
black per pixel, but luminance resolution of greyscale and
unsaturated detail is not much better than a Bayer, per pixel. The
image is sharper due to aliasing; sharpness is not resolution or
detail.
In fact, the luminance resolution is equivalent to a Bayer pattern
sensor with about 2X the number of pixels (where pixels for both
are defined in the X-Y plane). This matches what the approximation
of treating green pixels as luminance detectors predicts quite
well.
Green pixels are not luminance pixels. The only reason there are twice as many green pixels in a typical CFA is that the green pixels are more sensitive, and therefore you collect more light and get less overall noise. If there were no hot mirrors in the cameras they might double the red pixels instead.

All colors collect luminance information in a CFA; they are fairly accurate unless there is high-resolution chromatic detail (which there usually isn't).
A 3.4 MP Foveon sensor falls somewhere between a 6MP and 8MP
Bayer pattern sensor on resolution chart tests.
Nope. I count where the lines start to distort; not where they turn mush grey. Areas of the test charts that some people call "resolution" I call garbage. What good is "resolving" when it is inconsistent (misses details of the same size in some cases, but catches them in another), and pushes edges up to a half pixel away from where they should be?

--
John

 
Green pixels are not luminance pixels.
The green pixels are, exactly as I said, a good approximation of luminance pixels.
The only reason there are
twice as many green pixels in a typical CFA is that the green
pixels are more sensitive, and therefore you collect more light and
get less overall noise.
No that's not the reason at all. The reason is to produce images that look more detailed, as described by Bayer himself in the patent.
If there were no hot mirrors in the
cameras they might double the red pixels instead.
That would have a negative effect on image quality, leading to images that appear less detailed than the 50% green approach. This is demonstrated well in the link I provided above.
All colors collect luminance information in a CFA; they are fairly
accurate unless there is high-resolution chromatic detail (which
there usually isn't).
All colors detect something that is relevant to luminance, but none detect luminance directly. Green is most relevant to luminance, red less, blue much less. This is why typical CFAs wisely have so much green.
A 3.4 MP Foveon sensor falls somewhere between a 6MP and 8MP
Bayer pattern sensor on resolution chart tests.
Nope. I count where the lines start to distort; not where they
turn mush grey. Areas of the test charts that some people call
"resolution" I call garbage. What good is "resolving" when it is
inconsistent (misses details of the same size in some cases, but
catches them in another), and pushes edges up to a half pixel away
from where they should be?
You're free to invent your own evaluation criteria (be sure you apply them consistently, BTW), but I'll stick with Phil's, which incidentally happens to match what the math and science would predict.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Whats more important to you? Taking photographs that have great
image quality, or taking photographs that are quality images?
Quality images.... that don't disappoint because of image quality.

I want to have the freedom to shoot casually when and where I want to capture the moment. Most recently I have been waiting on the D3H to arrive on the scene to take me comfortably where I have found limitations with my D70. In the meantime I've taken a wonderful detour... with a small bodied little minx called Tizzy! She fits in my hand and slides into my pocket. She holds steady even as my AARP hand wanders and weaves as I attempt to point and shoot. Her big LCD lights up my life.



I've posted several shots taken by candlelight with Tizzy (Panasonic TZ1) .... who has a reputation for noisy hi ISO perforamnce..... but it's the search for images first and then image quality.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=19393628
--

Very pleased that I was able to capture some special moments.

But I do hope that Panasonic can give me better hi ISO performance .... and a wider lens in this compact little body.
Marabou Muddler
 
"We don't need more megapixels" should actually be read "We need
other improvements in image quality more than we need more
megapixels." That is, we need better dynamic range and better
sensitivity more than we need more megapixels.
Yes. That's probably a better way to put it. But even so I wouldn't necessarily always prefer the extra DR over the extra resolution.
I did an informal comparison of my 4 MP PowerShot S40 against my
7.2 MP Sony DSC-V3. At low ISO, the 4MP camera held at least as
much detail as the 7.2 MP one, and it had fewer processing
artifacts -- in particular, there was no visible evidence of noise
reduction.
That is at odds with my experience with an Olympus C7070 that uses the same sensor. I found that it held its own very well against a 5Mp Olympus E-1 with a superior lens. It also doesn't jibe with my experiences using my Nikon CP5000 with 5Mp 2/3" sensor. The C7070 produces more detail and less noise. The difference isn't huge, but it is sufficient to put the Coolpix 5000 on the shelf.
The Sony Nutella-ed out detail even at ISO64. And so
does every other camera that uses that particular sensor. Sure, at
ISO400 the newer sensor did better than the older one -- but
neither did particularly well there.
When I'm really concerned about detail, I shoot raw with my C7070. But when shooting JPEGs, I really don't seem much noise reduction effect or much loss in detail. The advantage to processing the raw over the JPEG is in tonal control, not detail and lack of noise reduction. If NR is there, it is subtle.

I do suspect that the AA filters on smaller sensor cameras are not as optimal as they are for cameras using larger pixel pitches. Small sensor cameras fairly consistently turn in about 10% less resolution on a pixel per pixel basis when compared to DSLRs (DPReview tests) Maybe that is part of what you are seeing? The FujiFilm SuperCCD is an exception.
I'm thrilled as hell with my Fuji F30 because it does not do
this. The images are as good as artifact-free and extremely
"pixel-sharp" at low ISO, and... well, just read Simon's review;
it's all in there. Hell, I'd be happy with 4 Fuji MP if I got
another half-stop of dynamic range for it!
Yep. Put that sensor in a better camera please!! To bad DPReview doesn't test the DR of small sensor cameras.
But if someone came up with a 20 MP 1/1.7" sensor with ISO3200 that
looks like ISO800 on the Fuji, and, say, 9 stops of usable dynamic
range, no, I wouldn't spit on the extra MP.
Actually, I'd like to see a 12MP 4/3 sensor - using the same technology found in the F30 - in the next Olympus DSLR body. That's probably a pipedream, but based on the F10-> F30 performance, that is exactly what the next 4/3 camera really needs.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Shadows and Highlites can do great things and so can color rebalancing, but sometimes there are limits to what you can do and want to do. These images were so pitifully underexposed with very little blue channel information.... trying to "correct" the image to make it look like there was something approximating normal light simply wouldn't work. I played around with the whole set of exposures and got some of them looking "natural" by tweaking in RBG as well as in Lab, but I decided I liked the red tone and darkness that quite accurately portrayed what it was like in the ballroom with all (ALL) the lights turned off except the accent light at the end of the ballroom.... and the candlelights.--
Marabou Muddler
 
Of course everybody is entitled to their opinions, but some
opinions don't make much sense. More MP lets you capture more
detail, which gives you the option of:
  • Cropping more (= greater telephoto reach), which means carrying
lighter or fewer lenses
Hmmm right so you are a bit lazy then? Come on man thats a pretty sad way to work. I would have zero respect for a photographer who wants to "fix it later"...how about some composition here....

A master would never work like this.
  • Capturing more detail that you can zoom in on later with a
software viewer
More or rather a "bit more"....
  • Achieving greater DOF (by using a smaller focal length and cropping)
  • Using a wider lens to capture fast moving subjects (e.g. running
children) and then adjusting the composition later with cropping
Hmmm see above
  • Making larger prints, but that's really the least interesting
thing you can do with more resolution
A bit larger or rather a bit better.
What reason could there be to not want this kind of flexibility?
More cost, more noise, more noise reduction processing. Tatty high ISO levels inferior to smaller mp cameras.
Now, if you think think that manufacturers are pushing to increase
resolution before they have the noise under control, that's another
matter and it's perfectly reasonable to complain about this if it
bothers you and you have the facts to back it up.
It does bother me. It also bothers me some people are not aware that to double your res for a print on a 6mp camera...you need 24mp..10mp isnt that much better. A bit. Good for the manufacturers that some people are suckered into thinking otherwise. Hence the misleading number. I dont mind more MP but give me less noise, better DR ist please.

When you start
putting together the facts to make your case, keep in mind that
while there have been a few mistakes, manufacturers have
historically been pretty good about increasing resolution only when
they can do so without increasing noise. If you listen to all the
whining, you might get a different impression, but the facts tell
another story.

Don't believe me? Compare a shot from a modern 6MP 1/2.5" sensor
with an older 4MP 1/2.5" sensor from dpreview's reviews.

Phil's (Simon's) recent Canon SD700IS review (6MP 1/2.5" sensor
@ISO 400):

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonSD700IS/Samples/Comparedto/Canon_SD700_ISO400.JPG

Phil's (Simon's) 11/2004 Canon SD300 review (4MP 1/2.5" sensor @ISO
400):
Great yesterdays technology. Sure in 5 years maybe they can nail it...but now...well even going to 10mp you gain some, you lose some too.

Not my idea of real progress. Small steps....I await some BIG steps
--

 
  • Cropping more (= greater telephoto reach), which means carrying
lighter or fewer lenses
Hmmm right so you are a bit lazy then?
Is that illegal?? Or even immoral?
Come on man thats a pretty
sad way to work.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me, if you get the right end result.

Francis
if you re-read hjis remarks, he says that the more the better UNLESS more means poor noise...

Dave
 
Of course everybody is entitled to their opinions, but some
opinions don't make much sense. More MP lets you capture more
detail, which gives you the option of:
  • Cropping more (= greater telephoto reach), which means carrying
lighter or fewer lenses
Hmmm right so you are a bit lazy then?
Not lazy - just clever.
Come on man thats a pretty
sad way to work. I would have zero respect for a photographer who
wants to "fix it later"...how about some composition here....
Fortunately, photography is about images and not about your arbitrary notions about how images are supposed to be captured.
What reason could there be to not want this kind of flexibility?
More cost, more noise, more noise reduction processing. Tatty high
ISO levels inferior to smaller mp cameras.
It's no more expensive per chip to produce higher resolution sensors and I already addressed the noise/ISO issue.
Now, if you think think that manufacturers are pushing to increase
resolution before they have the noise under control, that's another
matter and it's perfectly reasonable to complain about this if it
bothers you and you have the facts to back it up.
It does bother me. It also bothers me some people are not aware
that to double your res for a print on a 6mp camera...you need
24mp..10mp isnt that much better. A bit. Good for the manufacturers
that some people are suckered into thinking otherwise. Hence the
misleading number. I dont mind more MP but give me less noise,
better DR ist please.
The suckers seem to be the people who buy the current group think about noise always increasing or about there being no use for more MP.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Of course everybody is entitled to their opinions, but some
opinions don't make much sense. More MP lets you capture more
detail, which gives you the option of:
  • Cropping more (= greater telephoto reach), which means carrying
lighter or fewer lenses
Hmmm right so you are a bit lazy then?
Not lazy - just clever.
Come on man thats a pretty
sad way to work. I would have zero respect for a photographer who
wants to "fix it later"...how about some composition here....
Fortunately, photography is about images and not about your
arbitrary notions about how images are supposed to be captured.
What reason could there be to not want this kind of flexibility?
More cost, more noise, more noise reduction processing. Tatty high
ISO levels inferior to smaller mp cameras.
It's no more expensive per chip to produce higher resolution
sensors and I already addressed the noise/ISO issue.
Now, if you think think that manufacturers are pushing to increase
resolution before they have the noise under control, that's another
matter and it's perfectly reasonable to complain about this if it
bothers you and you have the facts to back it up.
It does bother me. It also bothers me some people are not aware
that to double your res for a print on a 6mp camera...you need
24mp..10mp isnt that much better. A bit. Good for the manufacturers
that some people are suckered into thinking otherwise. Hence the
misleading number. I dont mind more MP but give me less noise,
better DR ist please.
The suckers seem to be the people who buy the current group think
about noise always increasing or about there being no use for more
MP.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ:
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Sorry to say but I think you have a very limited view of what is happening with regards megapixels, the pros and cons. Frankly 10mp+ is not delivering substantial gains over 6/8mp. You should know this.

Cropping can be handy, but there is nothing clever about it. It should be a last resort. The suckers are the ones who rush out to get a few extra mp I am afraid. And if this is your feelings and desires go for it enjoy yourself. However those who know whats going on will hang onto their cash.

"Fortunately, photography is about images and not about your
arbitrary notions about how images are supposed to be captured"

Right problem is Ron some of us know how to take photos and good ones at that, whats right for you isnt for everyone. What I do isnt for everyone either. The difference is I dont try to convince others that its right. You seem to. And provide no real reason or fact as to why this is.

You dont need loads of res to take good shots, you need a good eye. Nothing less, nothing more. Talent was never defined by what camera you have...

--

 
Sorry to say but I think you have a very limited view of what is
happening with regards megapixels, the pros and cons. Frankly 10mp+
is not delivering substantial gains over 6/8mp. You should know
this.
I know EXACTLY what is gained.
Cropping can be handy, but there is nothing clever about it. It
should be a last resort.
That's a completely ignorant and arbitrary judgement.
The suckers are the ones who rush out to
get a few extra mp I am afraid. And if this is your feelings and
desires go for it enjoy yourself. However those who know whats
going on will hang onto their cash.
Those who know what's going on will understand how to use their tools, rather than mocking people who understand their tools.
"Fortunately, photography is about images and not about your
arbitrary notions about how images are supposed to be captured"

Right problem is Ron some of us know how to take photos and good
ones at that, whats right for you isnt for everyone. What I do isnt
for everyone either. The difference is I dont try to convince
others that its right. You seem to. And provide no real reason or
fact as to why this is.
On the contrary, I gave a list of good uses of this technology. Nobody says that you need to take advantage of new technology. You can play games with yourself to make life harder for yourself if that what makes you happy. Just don't try to confuse others by calling your little game a virtue.
You dont need loads of res to take good shots, you need a good eye.
Nothing less, nothing more. Talent was never defined by what camera
you have...
You need a camera to take pictures. A camera is a piece of technology. We all use technology to make it more pleasant and more efficient to take good pictures - otherwise we'd still be using silver plates, manual focus, manual exposure, etc.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Cropping can be handy, but there is nothing clever about it. It
should be a last resort.
That's a completely ignorant and arbitrary judgement.
Nothing ignorant about it Ron, unless you want to go down this macho I am a better photographer than you are road. Which wont serve any purpose at all.

Its just good common sense. Its better IMHO to go out and use some skill to frame the shot, rather than the fix it later way of thinking. Skill thats the word. Raises your game up to a point where you can deliver the goods, time and time again. Of course we all make mistakes, the odd wonky horizon, not so good framing. And hence use crop if needed. But thats it a tool to be used when needed. Not a crutch.

No point going out and not taking time to think about what you are doing.

You gotta come up with something far more impressive than that for the lets have more res argument.
Those who know what's going on will understand how to use their
tools, rather than mocking people who understand their tools.
"Fortunately, photography is about images and not about your
arbitrary notions about how images are supposed to be captured"

Right problem is Ron some of us know how to take photos and good
ones at that, whats right for you isnt for everyone. What I do isnt
for everyone either. The difference is I dont try to convince
others that its right. You seem to. And provide no real reason or
fact as to why this is.
On the contrary, I gave a list of good uses of this technology.
Nobody says that you need to take advantage of new technology. You
can play games with yourself to make life harder for yourself if
that what makes you happy. Just don't try to confuse others by
calling your little game a virtue.
Ok so you can crop a bit more. Notice the word Ron a "bit". And you can print a "bit" bigger. This is it? Not what I call amazing blow me away stuff.

As for my little game, its just my view, unlike you I dont feel the need to tell everyone else how to take photos, or put up some self declared guru site with hints and tips. SUre if you want to help thats a good thing. But try to look beyond the number will you? How about lattitude and tones?
You dont need loads of res to take good shots, you need a good eye.
Nothing less, nothing more. Talent was never defined by what camera
you have...
You need a camera to take pictures. A camera is a piece of
technology. We all use technology to make it more pleasant and
more efficient to take good pictures - otherwise we'd still be
using silver plates, manual focus, manual exposure, etc.
Silver plates never stopped anyone taking superb shots. In your haste to declare the true and guiding way to photography miracles, you miss the point almost 100%. Its never was gear, it never will be.

When 35mm was introduced, it got better over time, lenses got better, cameras faster and more reliable. But this was ALL SECONDARY to the ultimate game of GETTING THE GREAT SHOT.

Some people still use manual focus, manual exposure. If my light meter failed on my 35mm SLR, its all manual. I can take the shot...can you?

I have a 120 roll film camera from the 20's. There is no light meter...but I can use it. Because I decided to learn how to. Anyone can its not that hard.

One thing is certain, the great photographers never really bothered worrying about gear, or lenses, or whats down the road technology wise. Whats the point? We all know things will improve. Free yourself to worry about the meat, or the picture. Dont become a slave to technology. It will never take a good shot for you....just another tool.
--

 
One thing is certain, the great photographers never really bothered
worrying about gear, or lenses, or whats down the road technology
wise. Whats the point? We all know things will improve. Free
yourself to worry about the meat, or the picture. Dont become a
slave to technology. It will never take a good shot for you....just
another tool.
Wasn't that the "Great photographers can make great images using a pinhole cam"-argument?? Well, for some reason they never do...

regards
 
One thing is certain, the great photographers never really bothered
worrying about gear, or lenses, or whats down the road technology
wise. Whats the point? We all know things will improve. Free
yourself to worry about the meat, or the picture. Dont become a
slave to technology. It will never take a good shot for you....just
another tool.
Wasn't that the "Great photographers can make great images using a
pinhole cam"-argument?? Well, for some reason they never do...

regards
Oh so you have never heard of:

Eugène Atget
Carleton Watkins

Edward Steichen (his early 1904 shot of a pond in colour reached a record sale. One of the early colour shots)
Wilhelm J. Burger
Mathew Brady

All of the above are remembered not for what camera they used, but that they got the results. In modern terms, the quality of their shots is a joke compared to whats about now. But it didnt stop the shots coming in.

Your comment is misplaced, and frankly quite wrong.

--

 
Edward Steichen (his early 1904 shot of a pond in colour reached a
record sale. One of the early colour shots)
uhmm, does this mean that Edward Steigen used state-of-the-art technology to get the shot he wanted? I think yes and I think I understand why he did so.
 
Edward Steichen (his early 1904 shot of a pond in colour reached a
record sale. One of the early colour shots)
uhmm, does this mean that Edward Steigen used state-of-the-art
technology to get the shot he wanted? I think yes and I think I
understand why he did so.
You are picking hairs here...he used an ok bellows camera...thats it. Its about a good eye buster nothing more nothing less.

Far from state of the art

Gear comes last.

--

 
All of the above are remembered not for what camera they used, but
that they got the results. In modern terms, the quality of their
shots is a joke compared to whats about now. But it didnt stop the
shots coming in.
Sure. We remember them for the photographs. Anybody can buy a camera after all.

But if you look at the past greats, you will find that some were very much concerned about the technology of the day. Many were very picky about their tools. Some were picky about some aspects and not others. For instance, I seem to recall that Weston was very picky about his chemical processes but he at times relied on his much more techno-geeky friend Adams for help with his camera gear.

The cameras and technology do matter. Though I suspect most people pay too much attention to it.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
All of the above are remembered not for what camera they used, but
that they got the results. In modern terms, the quality of their
shots is a joke compared to whats about now. But it didnt stop the
shots coming in.
Sure. We remember them for the photographs. Anybody can buy a
camera after all.

But if you look at the past greats, you will find that some were
very much concerned about the technology of the day. Many were
very picky about their tools. Some were picky about some aspects
and not others. For instance, I seem to recall that Weston was
very picky about his chemical processes but he at times relied on
his much more techno-geeky friend Adams for help with his camera
gear.

The cameras and technology do matter. Though I suspect most people
pay too much attention to it.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
My simple point is this and this alone.

Why worry or bother yourself with what may be there is a few years? I mean its a foregone conclusion that technology only gets better. And it will. Many more important things to worry about..........

in 20 years what we use now will be laughable probably, but that doesnt stop great photos being taken..

--

 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top