August: the Canon vs Nikon war will heat up

this according to Nikon guru Thom:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d80.htm

This is not as big a deal as it once was now that cards are cheaper, but still... ouch.

I really hope Canon sticks with CF on the "XT2" and the rest of its dslr's as well. imho SD belongs only at the entry level to accommodate folks moving up from digicams. But if the "XT2" is Canon's entry level, with no "3000D" below it, I guess by that logic it could be SD for "XT2" as well.

We should know for sure within a month or so... I think everyone is doing preannouncements to avoid losing buzz before the big show.

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Yes, a 1.6x crop pro body with 12MP sensor, f/8 AF capability and fast burst mode would be very popular among wildlife photographers.

This would be the perfect vehicle for Canon to introduce a new, higher pixel count 1.6x crop CMOS sensor.

At $2500, Canon should be able to sell tens of thousands of units...

In the future, the same sensor can be moved to the 30D sucessor.

The next 1 will be a great camera, but my source says that it won't be ready until next year...not exactly "shortly" ;-)

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Juza - http://www.juzaphoto.com

PeaceFrog said:

All I can say is that you are the biggest 1.3x cheerleader I have
ever seen.

Greg

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http://www.pbase.com/dadas115/

Click to expand...

Not really. It is irrelevant to me, your suppositions aside, if Canon bring out another 1.3.

I just think if you wish to make statements about this and that you should have some substnce behind it.

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Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Have fun.

Chez Wimpy said:

David Martin said:

That's your opinion - but the point of my post is that all the
statements by Canon indicate that 1.3 is likely to continue - have
you any references where they state the contrary, or not?

Click to expand...

If they are speaking in American English terms, I would take this
to mean that with the current production costs, the 1Dmk2n's would
continue production even after a unified 1-series camera were
released (ie FF but with 8.5fps) until the point where the price of
the unified camera line could "replace" the need for the cheaper
camera.

If this is Japanese -> English though, then I would suspect it is
likely "we would like to do a lot of things... but we aren't"
because a negative answer to a question done directly is not polite
here.

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-CW

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment

New D80 is great as D200 does, but 30D has a significant price/performance ratio.

No matter what kind of high tech features to be embedded in the camera, show me the picture results !
Canon vs Nikon war is nothing but triggering many dieharder on both side.

--
from darkness to HIS everlasting light...

Sources said both Canon and Nikon are preparing their nuclear weapons for the next year.

Jun

Let’s see, first came the D30, overpriced and under performing. Then 18 months latter the D60, a real dog that was not competitive when introduced and sold poorly when compared to the D100. Canon had to rush the 10D which was closer but still “no cigar”. Slightly better high ISO and buffer but otherwise still lacking many D100 features and performance. So after a year Canon almost caught up to the D100. It took another 18 months to actually surpass the D100 with the 20D, although it still lacked a few key features. Three bodies and 32 months to become competitive, where as Nikon took only 12 months to pass Canon by. I suspect it will take Canon another several iterations and a few years to match the D200. BTW, I completely agree with you about the D2h, although it sure is a nice body and the “s” version has excellent IQ.

Spoken by a true blind Nikonian: every Canon body is a dog, rushed to the market, and each one totally uncompetitive to what Nikon offered!!! Yeah, that's why Canon has more DSLR marketshare than all other brands combined. I hate to break it to you, but the D100 wasn't that great a camera, and it didn't do nearly as well as the Nikon fanatics think it did. For example, take a look at pbase.com's camera database:

Nikon D100 (42 months in the market): 4973 users

Canon D60 (12 months in the market): 2743 users
Canon 10D (18 months in the market): 8891 users
Canon 20D (18 months in the market: 9293 users

If you take the D100 tally and adjust it for a 12 month lifecycle (similar to the Canon D60's market lifecycle), you only get 1420 users. Even if you were to DOUBLE that number, the D100 (12 month) tally would be 2843-- not much different from the D60's number, in spite of the D60 supposedly being such a poor-selling "dog", LOL. In reality, the D60 did quite well against the D100, and the 10D did even better. And the 20D did better still.

As you can see, there are a LOT more users of Canon's mid-market bodies than there are of the D100. And for good reason, too. The D100 had no wireless TTL flash, no high speed sync flash capabilities and thus was limited to a slow x-sync of only 1/180s (high speed flash sync being a pretty "key feature" for basic daylight fill flash photography), no mirror lock up, no RAW+JPEG recording, a paltry 3 frame RAW buffer, no auto image rotation tagging, and simply had image quality that trailed behind Canon's reknowned CMOS sensors. It's no wonder that Canon did so much better in this segment of the market. But of course, Nikonians will still argue that Canons are all "underperforming", "rushed", "not competitive", "sold poorly", etc, etc. Meanwhile, Canon has steadily been running away with Nikon's marketshare ever since getting into the DSLR business.

Mark Tuccillo said:

Let’s see, first came the D30, overpriced and under performing.
Then 18 months latter the D60, a real dog that was not competitive
when introduced and sold poorly when compared to the D100. Canon
had to rush the 10D which was closer but still “no cigar”.
Slightly better high ISO and buffer but otherwise still lacking
many D100 features and performance. So after a year Canon almost
caught up to the D100. It took another 18 months to actually
surpass the D100 with the 20D, although it still lacked a few key
features. Three bodies and 32 months to become competitive, where
as Nikon took only 12 months to pass Canon by. I suspect it will
take Canon another several iterations and a few years to match the
D200. BTW, I completely agree with you about the D2h, although it
sure is a nice body and the “s” version has excellent IQ.

Click to expand...

David Martin said:

Absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Have fun.

Click to expand...

If you are going to play the speculation game, you really owe it to yourself to study up on the culture of the company - because you are dealing with Canon Japan here, and even when they speak to an international media outlet, their method of expression is decidedly Japanese. Suddenly a lot of the "contradictory" statements will become clearer.

That is, you don't see these 1.3x crop continuation debates on the Japanese user forums (hint).

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-CW

I don't believe that 1.3 crop has a future.

If Canon does what Nikon have done with the D2X they would probably make it 14-15mp full frame and around 9-10mp cropped.

This would answer the pixel density needs of the pro sport shooters, and also cover the full-frame/high-res users. And while I think of it, compared to the current 1DmkIIn, wouldn't the sport shooters be even happier this 1.6x crop and 9mp option?

This type of camera would also allow Canon to push the 1Ds line even further. If what I said in the second paragraph is true, then Canon could push the 1Ds to something like 20 or 22mp and not have a big gap in their range.
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fluorite

Mark Shaxted said:

This would leave room for 22Mp 1 series uber camera, and wouldn't
affect 5D sales too much. Would also promote EF-S to Pro status,
with possible L designations.

Click to expand...

A 22MP 1Ds with a very large screen. Something like is rumoured to have been spotted at the Football World Cup in Germany.

Sounds nice. Not that I can afford one, though...

http://www.e-fotografija.com/artman/publish/article_440.shtml
It confirms the merging of the 1 series line.
Nowhere does it state that there will be no more 1.3 size sensor cameras.
It has been commonly over-interpreted to indicate that.

If your memory is as good as you sayh you should be able to remember where the article you erroneously state that indicates from Canon that the 1.3 crop is to be dropped is! ;-)

Slayer9292 said:

First of all, I don't care if 1.3 crop stays or not. I have quite
a good memory, and I remember exactly what was read. Canon wanted
to merge the 1Ds and 1D series into one camera. Whether they do
this or not, doesn't matter. Just my opinon on what will happen.

I also never discounted the article you mention.

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment

..which Canon does not share, since they have repeatedly said that they are happy to have three sensor sizes - it is just that many appear reluctant to listen to what they say.

Here is a translation of another interview in which they say they are happy with three sensor sizes:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=16545094
Can anyone get their head around what they actually say?

They will produce another 1.3 sensor size camera if and when that is the most appropriate choice.
Nothing difficult about it, is there?

Michael Friedman said:

Twice a year, like clockwork on these forums, someone predicts a
new 1.3 crop camera ... a prediction based mostly on fantasy. Canon
has stated repeatedly that there will be two sensor sizes in their
future DSLRs: 1.6 crop and full frame. What is there about this
that people don't understand?

For Canon, it's an obvious economic decision. The development cost
of three sensor sizes makes little sense for them, now that they
have two full-frame cameras on the market. They've also stated that
the 1.6 crop sensor is here to stay for the foreseeable future. As
someone said, they are not about to drop that, with all the
investment they've made in S-Series lenses (not to mention the
investment in these lenses made by a lot of their customers).

I'm not saying the chances of a new 1.3 camera are comletely zero,
but I'd guess their development yen are going into other sorts of
improvements in the 1.6 and FF sensors, not to mention other
aspects of their DSLRs. 1.3 buys them very little in terms of
competing with Nikon. Better dynamic range, though, buys them a
lot, as might a lower-priced FF body, camera-based image
stabalization, self-cleaning sensor, better ergonomics and
durability, etc., etc.
--
-Michael
http://www.novalight-imaging.com

'When you come to a fork in the road, take it!'
-Yogi Berra

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment

David Martin said:

Can anyone get their head around what they actually say?
They will produce another 1.3 sensor size camera if and when that
is the most appropriate choice.
Nothing difficult about it, is there?

Click to expand...

Here is the translation you linked:

"A: The customer's needs take precedence. For example: the APS-C size sensor - [at] ISO 1600, supposedly the image quality differences are in direct connection to the sensor size. However, in the near future if the sensor abilty improves, the APS-C size sensor might put out sufficient ability, maybe [= I don't know]. In regards to the customers' needs, since we are offering suitable sensor sizes, from now on if it happens that full size sensors will be an overwhelmingly good thing, to a full size maybe we will converge. However, conversely, to an APS-C size we might head."

Now, if you read that literally, he states that if things pan out one way, we might just go towards an APS-C size! Canon would drop FF and 1.3x crop for a complete APS-C lineup in the future? I guess we should debate that "opinion" to death as well...

" Technology developments and needs revise, and because of that, I think Canon has to not arbitrarily decide or talk about size. At the present time we are appraising the requirements; three sensor sizes we offer as a balance, which is good I think."

It is just as much speculation to say that Canon will indeed release a new line of 1.3x crop cameras after the 1 series is merged. "At the present time" indicates now - not tomorrow, not in the spring and fall (when all my favorite snacks change flavors based on the whims of Japanese mutability) - and certainly not after things have advanced to the point where the 1D series merges. If he went and said "we have a line of 1.3x cameras that are in developement to continue after the merge of the 1D series" then you can push the point. The only (in Japanese) commitment to a sensor size at this point was the EF-S mount "5 year plan" statement from two years back. When something is not explicitly promised in Japanese...

The only other comment in that interview about 1.3x:

"Next, for seriously stressing speed, the professionally intended APS-H [1.25x crop]; then for a usability as that of the existing 35mm film camera there is the full size [sensor] [.] According to the user's preference or use we are able to offer the appropriate goods [i.e., camera.]"

There you have it; 1.3 exists for the sake of speed. When Canon gets tech to the point where 8.5fps is doable with 16MP+ FF - this need will vanish. At which point "a usability as that of the existing 35mm film camera" will determine the aforementioned merger of the 1-series, and an adoption of the FF sensor for that model. That is not an opinion, just what has been stated by Canon so far. Now, while he doesn't say 1.3x will cease to exist, YOU have to make the leap to assume a new line of 1.3x cameras will be created. Like I said in a previous post, the only way they will keep a 1dmk# camera in production is if the price of the FF model is higher that sports photogs will pay. Any other new camera line is pure "opinion" at this point.

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-CW

Chez Wimpy said:

David Martin said:

Can anyone get their head around what they actually say?
They will produce another 1.3 sensor size camera if and when that
is the most appropriate choice.
Nothing difficult about it, is there?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Canon said:

Chez Wimpy said:

" Technology developments and needs revise, and because of that, I
think Canon has to not arbitrarily decide or talk about size. At
the present time we are appraising the requirements; three sensor
sizes we offer as a balance, which is good I think."

Click to expand...

So you say:

Chez Wimpy said:

It is just as much speculation to say that Canon will indeed
release a new line of 1.3x crop cameras after the 1 series is
merged. "At the present time" indicates now - not tomorrow, not in
the spring and fall (when all my favorite snacks change flavors
based on the whims of Japanese mutability) - and certainly not
after things have advanced to the point where the 1D series merges.
If he went and said "we have a line of 1.3x cameras that are in
developement to continue after the merge of the 1D series" then you
can push the point. The only (in Japanese) commitment to a sensor
size at this point was the EF-S mount "5 year plan" statement from
two years back. When something is not explicitly promised in
Japanese...

The only other comment in that interview about 1.3x:

"Next, for seriously stressing speed, the professionally intended
APS-H [1.25x crop]; then for a usability as that of the existing
35mm film camera there is the full size [sensor] [.] According to
the user's preference or use we are able to offer the appropriate
goods [i.e., camera.]"

There you have it; 1.3 exists for the sake of speed. When Canon
gets tech to the point where 8.5fps is doable with 16MP+ FF - this
need will vanish. At which point "a usability as that of the
existing 35mm film camera" will determine the aforementioned merger
of the 1-series, and an adoption of the FF sensor for that model.
That is not an opinion, just what has been stated by Canon so far.
Now, while he doesn't say 1.3x will cease to exist, YOU have to
make the leap to assume a new line of 1.3x cameras will be created.
Like I said in a previous post, the only way they will keep a 1dmk#
camera in production is if the price of the FF model is higher that
sports photogs will pay. Any other new camera line is pure
"opinion" at this point.

--
-CW

Click to expand...

Just where have I made the leap to :'you have to make the leap to assume a new line of 1.3 sensor cameras will be released'

When what I said was 'Canon will release a new 1.3 camera when and if it is appropriate'
You simply mis-state my points and also those of Canon.

The fact is that Canon have said that they may release a new 1.3, and that is all we know.

You have no more information than I do, but please stop blantently twisting my words, and do try to stick to what Canon have said rather than your over-interpretations of their comments.
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment

How am I supposed to remember the link to a website from a year an half ago. Since then I've probably visted 10,000 webpages. You must be out of your mind to insult someone like that.

In this article there is no statement that they plan to keep 1.3 crop either. If they marge the two cameras, and the 1D2 is the only 1.3 crop, there is nothing wrong with thinking they will drop the 1.3 crop sensor....especially since there is no other 1.3 crop cameras made.

Also there was no reason for me to search for an article, cause honestly I could care less if there is another 1.3 crop camera or not. I'm not buying it, so it doesn't affect me at all. For you...I hope they make another 1.3 crop camera so you will be happy.

Everything posted here is just speculation, only Canon know's what's comming out, and thier employees sign NDA's so they can't discuss it.

David Martin said:

Slayer9292 said:

First of all, I don't care if 1.3 crop stays or not. I have quite
a good memory, and I remember exactly what was read. Canon wanted
to merge the 1Ds and 1D series into one camera. Whether they do
this or not, doesn't matter. Just my opinon on what will happen.

I also never discounted the article you mention.

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment

Click to expand...

Member said:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=16545094
Can anyone get their head around what they actually say?
They will produce another 1.3 sensor size camera if and when that
is the most appropriate choice.
Nothing difficult about it, is there?

Click to expand...

IF it's the appropriate choice? When it's the appropriate choice? Are you reading the same sentence I am? So once the 1 series is merged, is it possible the 1.3 crop is no longer the appropriate choice?

Why offer HSC when you can do a full frame capture @ > 8fhp?

Steven

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Summer 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/gallery/images_summer_2006