August: the Canon vs Nikon war will heat up

Most of you posters STILL don't understand camera manufacturing!!

Canon's national sales meeting is in two weeks in San Francisco and, whatever they show was designed at least two years ago. Far beyond any realization of how the 20D, 5D sales would be.
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yankee
 
First of all, I don't care if 1.3 crop stays or not. I have quite a good memory, and I remember exactly what was read. Canon wanted to merge the 1Ds and 1D series into one camera. Whether they do this or not, doesn't matter. Just my opinon on what will happen.

I also never discounted the article you mention.
 
Well we can't all be right, so, sorry to the rest of you !! ;) the more bodies the merrier ! almost like a party! I wonder what the Vegas odds are ....;)
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Life is about choices...See Cuba: http://www.jonrp.smugmug.com
 
I agree that the major updates won't happen this year, but don't think for a moment that Canon is going to glide through the holiday season without making a little splash in the hotly contested $1499 and sub $1000 market.

A reduction in price on the XT plus a sub $499 USD 3000D seem likely. With the 30D update, (as nominal as it was) A 'true' 20D successor isn't out of the realm of possibility either.

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Kevin Barrett
Lowell, MI
http://www.kbfoto.com
 
Canon's national sales meeting is in two weeks in San Francisco
and, whatever they show was designed at least two years ago. Far
beyond any realization of how the 20D, 5D sales would be.
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I'd suspect Canon has a 10-12mp 1.6x sensor designed, it be easy enough to kick into production and drop it in the 30D body and call it a 40D.

The 30D is really not lacking except its sensor is dated, as it underperforms somewhat at ISOs over 400 compared to the 5D, its buffer and focus could be improved closer to 5D levels.

I just cant see Canon sitting still with a 2 year old sensor, in its top of line 1.6x body thats priced at just 1249 any longer.

There is a big market for a Canon $1999 top of class 1.6x body, with improved focus, improved noise at high iso's, much larger buffer, and more pixel density for tele users.

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Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/jackcnd/favorites
 
What possible interpretation of 'we would like to continue 1.3' is
there other than that Canon want to make more 1.3 cameras?
The other interpretation, which I suspect is the correct one, would be -

'we would like to continue 1.3, but...'

Personally I really don't care either way. It just seems that 1.3 is a 'neither here nor there' size. It depends on whether or not Canon feels it could convert existing 1.3 users (eg Pro sport/PJs) to either 1.6 or FF.

Mark
 
What I find surprising in the 1.3 question is , if a person doesn't want it, then why do they care whether others get it? It should not be an issue at all if one is not interested.
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Life is about choices...See Cuba: http://www.jonrp.smugmug.com
 
Looking at the current Canon line, the most likely new addition will be a 1.6x crop pro-body at $2000-$2500 price range. This may be the perfect vehicle for the introduction of a new 10-12MP 1.6x crop CMOS sensor.

Other than a minor update to the 350D (larger LCD, picture styles, etc.), the second new addition may be an even lower end model at $499 price point.
 
We are not looking at history. We are looking current situation and possible future. Currently, $1000 DSLR is at 10M with A100 and D80. I wish 30D is at 10M.

Canon still have the lead in sensor noise. But this lead lead might diappear. Fuji is start to show more advance than others including others. F30 sensor shows near DSLR noise levels, that itself is huge advance, pointing that DSLR can increase more pixels with noise levels of 6MP, 8MP current sensors. I know Fuji will be there. I don't know Canon can reach that level. I centainly hope so. More or better innovation is always good for comsumers.

Fuji also took the lead on sensor dynamic range. S3 has two stop advantage on everything else.

DSLR body design. A100 is putting ant-shake and anti-dust in a $900 body. I want these in possible $1400 40D. I don't know Canon is giving that. I only hope Sony's semi-Pro can provide better autofocus system. If they do that, that is going to be an very impressive body.

In summmary, competitors are catching up. Canon's dominants in DSLR is not guaranteed. Canon can not rely on 20D to 30D type of upgrade too much in future. It must do more to please its users. I see nothing wrong with that.

Jun
 
I would rather have 5D at $2000-2500 than a 1.6x Pro Body. With the rebate, 5D was near $2500.

Jun
 
Put the anti-shake in. I will be sold.

Jun
Canon is trying to milk more and more money by doing less. The
only thing that will make Canon doing something significantly
better is that the sale of 30D and 5D starts to drop. If you guys
are happily buying 30D and 5D, Canon have little insentive to
introduce better new toy. The introduction of 30D is more like a
format than real new stuff. Spot meter should be in 20D anyway.
Although I am a Canon user, I am not persuading other users to buy
30D instead of D200 or A100. I think Canon need some pressure of
other camera makers.

I hope Fuji can get its act together. If Fuji can translate its
F30 technology in DSLR, we will see a 12M 1.5X sensor has lower
noise than 5D.

Jun
 
Ok, I'm not here to debate Nikon vs Canon, being a user of both
myself. But, from the looks of things, August will be a big month
from both companies, with new releases in DSLR's.

Nikon we know will be introducing a new DSLR in about 15 days.
Canon has historically announced new DSLR's every August for the
past couple of years, so we can expect them to answer to Nikon.

Competition is a good thing, and like I said, I am not here
encouraging a debate of Canon vs Nikon, but I am indeed looking
forward to see what both companies will roll out.

My predictions:

Nikon: The D70 will be replaced, because the D50 will remain
Nikon's entry level DSLR, seeing how well it's selling like hot
cakes, there is no reason to discontinue it. The D70 needs an
overhaul, seeing how the D50 easily trumps it in image quality, and
Nikon needs to plug in the gap between the D50 and D200, so expect
a $999 D70 replacement, its obvious.

Canon: This is where I can't really see a clear new arrival. The
30D was recently introduced, so I can't see an update to that, nor
the Rebel XT, which is already remarkably close to the 30D in
functionality and features, while remaining entry level. What is
needed is a plug between the 30D and 5D. So I'm thinking a 1.3x
crop DSLR to not eat up 5D sales, and still give an upgrade path to
20D and 30D owners. The body will be a competitor to the D200, but
offering 1.3x weather sealed semi-pro body is the answer to the
D200, while not jeopardizing 5D or 30D sales. Price: $1499-$1999.

Wether I am right or wrong, we will see in a few weeks. As I
stated, these are my predictions ;)
What is coming out,...will be nice... I have finally heard what is to be announced, but I promised, I won't say anything.. but believe me,.......there is a special something in the system that will open the door to much newer possibilities,...on top of the next pro camera..

Please don';t bother me with questions...you'll see in time what I mean..shortly.. :-)

JP

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http://www.onemodelplace.com/johnpaul

 
Twice a year, like clockwork on these forums, someone predicts a new 1.3 crop camera ... a prediction based mostly on fantasy. Canon has stated repeatedly that there will be two sensor sizes in their future DSLRs: 1.6 crop and full frame. What is there about this that people don't understand?

For Canon, it's an obvious economic decision. The development cost of three sensor sizes makes little sense for them, now that they have two full-frame cameras on the market. They've also stated that the 1.6 crop sensor is here to stay for the foreseeable future. As someone said, they are not about to drop that, with all the investment they've made in S-Series lenses (not to mention the investment in these lenses made by a lot of their customers).

I'm not saying the chances of a new 1.3 camera are comletely zero, but I'd guess their development yen are going into other sorts of improvements in the 1.6 and FF sensors, not to mention other aspects of their DSLRs. 1.3 buys them very little in terms of competing with Nikon. Better dynamic range, though, buys them a lot, as might a lower-priced FF body, camera-based image stabalization, self-cleaning sensor, better ergonomics and durability, etc., etc.
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-Michael
http://www.novalight-imaging.com

'When you come to a fork in the road, take it!'
-Yogi Berra

 
Isn't it time for some credible rumours to be starting?
Normally credible sources have stated an August annoucement (the actual start of shiipping may be later however), so I'd expect things to start moving soon. Hopefully though we won't get a repeat of the "accidental" leaks while sites like DPReview hold to their NDAs like last time; Nikon seems to have changed its ways, so hopefully Canon will follow suit. Personally, I don't see how the mish mash of the genuinely informed leaks, deliberate or otherwise, mixed in with wild speculation does any real good. Sure, it gets people wound up for the official announcement, but surely it also has people expecting far more than actually gets delivered.

Andy
 
I'd suspect Canon has a 10-12mp 1.6x sensor designed, it be easy
enough to kick into production and drop it in the 30D body and call
it a 40D.
Well, not 40D since Canon is a Japanese company...
The 30D is really not lacking except its sensor is dated, as it
underperforms somewhat at ISOs over 400 compared to the 5D
However the 5D photosites are larger, and this is why the noise performance is better. If you put 10~12MP in a 1.6x, it would only get worse (even acknowledged by Canon as the reason for the 8MP sensor). The only think Nikon is beating the 30D on is pixel density - and that is completely arbitrary since any MFG can cram P&S sized pixels in for the sake of winning the MP "race" - it isn't like DSLR tech can't manage 30MP on a 1.6x sensor in 2006.
I just cant see Canon sitting still with a 2 year old sensor, in
its top of line 1.6x body thats priced at just 1249 any longer.
Yes, I wonder what advancements have been made. Really though, the sensor performs about 85% as well as I could want it (since I learned to push exposure to the right, I have no issues with noise or dynamic range).
There is a big market for a Canon $1999 top of class 1.6x body,
with improved focus, improved noise at high iso's, much larger
buffer, and more pixel density for tele users.
If Canon has increased their S/N ratio and simultaneously increased the number of pixels, you needn't worry about not experiencing it. After all, they are keeping APS-C around, and they will have plenty of things in store for the 30D's successors.

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-CW
 
Here's something for you to consider though. It's pretty much a
given that the body most commonly seen in the hands of professional
sports photographers at any event will be the 1DmkII (or mkIIN).
If "reach" is so important to sports photographers, then why are
they all using, and in the main perfectly satisfied with, the
camera with the second lowest pixel density of all Canon's current
DSLRs?

[For the record, from the lowest to the highest, the order is 5D,
1DmkII, 350D, 1DSmkII, 30D.]

Andy
Andy - simple: It has 8fps, best servo tracking of any camera in the industry and weather sealed and good high iso noise performance.

I don't disagree with your other points regarding density and photons - IF they can provide more MP and larger sensor and not incur more noise - that's great. But, with any in-market technology today andything with a larger sensor has more noise. If Canon can overcome that - that's great.

And by reach I was referring to the crop factor and pixel density (yes I am aware of pixel density being important).
 
That's your opinion - but the point of my post is that all the
statements by Canon indicate that 1.3 is likely to continue - have
you any references where they state the contrary, or not?
If they are speaking in American English terms, I would take this to mean that with the current production costs, the 1Dmk2n's would continue production even after a unified 1-series camera were released (ie FF but with 8.5fps) until the point where the price of the unified camera line could "replace" the need for the cheaper camera.

If this is Japanese -> English though, then I would suspect it is likely "we would like to do a lot of things... but we aren't" because a negative answer to a question done directly is not polite here.

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-CW
 

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