S800 Problems

Chris Harlow · Dec 20, 2001

Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate) problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson 870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc) colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

BillyBob · Dec 20, 2001

Best advice I can offer is to use Canon Photo Paper Pro. Start with this paper as its the best for the printer, then when you see what the S800 is capable of, you can experiment with different types of media. The difference is like night & day when making comparisons. The only other paper I use in addition to PPP is Office Depot house brand and occasionally Epson Heavyweight Matte. All settings are the same as PPP.

--BillyBob

bschaldon · Dec 20, 2001

Terribly coarse dots.. something wrong here. On Kodak Premium Gloss I get very smooth results, albeit with a very slight colour cast to red/blue. Canon PPP gives the best results in both smoothness and colour fidelity. I'm not sure that the Kodak Ultima is a good choice - Kodak do not have recommended settings for the S800 on their website.

Best results are using the PhotoFilm setting, ensuring the Quality slider is all the way to the right - moving it left gradually reduces print resolution (saving ink) and increases the visible grain/dottiness.

brian
S800User Discussion Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/S800Users

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

--brian

Chris Harlow · Dec 20, 2001

Thanks. I will, of course, try the Canon paper. A tiny pack of 5 6" x 4" sheets came with the printer and I didn't want to blow it all in one go trying to get the colour matching right.

I sincerely hope that I don't get limited to one brand of paper. Unfortunately the Office Depot brand is not an option as I am in the UK.

Chris

BillyBob said:
Best advice I can offer is to use Canon Photo Paper Pro. Start
with this paper as its the best for the printer, then when you see
what the S800 is capable of, you can experiment with different
types of media. The difference is like night & day when making
comparisons. The only other paper I use in addition to PPP is
Office Depot house brand and occasionally Epson Heavyweight Matte.
All settings are the same as PPP.

--
BillyBob

Chris Harlow · Dec 20, 2001

Thanks Brian,

Brian Smith said:
Terribly coarse dots.. something wrong here.

Very much so. The results are horrible!

bschaldon said:
On Kodak Premium Gloss
I get very smooth results, albeit with a very slight colour cast to
red/blue.

It might depend on the image. The affected areas are very smooth tones with little or no detail (so the dots look very bad!). Shots with lots of detail or even small scale brightness/contrast changes outside the depth of field would probably not show up so badly.

bschaldon said:
Canon PPP gives the best results in both smoothness and
colour fidelity. I'm not sure that the Kodak Ultima is a good
choice - Kodak do not have recommended settings for the S800 on
their website.

Best results are using the PhotoFilm setting, ensuring the Quality
slider is all the way to the right - moving it left gradually
reduces print resolution (saving ink) and increases the visible
grain/dottiness.

That's how I got the best results but still not perfect. I'll try to scan the prints and demonstrate the effect.

bschaldon said:
brian
S800User Discussion Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/S800Users

Mr Photoshop · Dec 20, 2001

Hi Chris,

On the dot thing, make sure you are printing at 300 ppi. In Photoshop you can check this at “image/image size - resolution.” You can also check the size of the picture here as well.

As far as your color problems go I recommend you profile your monitor and printer. You will use much less paper and ink than the trial and error method. I have had the S800 for about a month and have printed about 100 pictures. Then all of a sudden the other day my prints had a very bad green tint to them. I checked my printer head alignment and it had shifted, corrected that, re-profiled the printer, and back on my way. Great prints again. There are many discussions here on profiling the monitor and printer. Here are a few vendor links:
http://www.colorcal.com/index.html
http://www.monacosys.com/
http://www.praxisoft.com/products/wiziwyg.html
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/chroma4.html

Duane
FYI I use colorcal

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Sue W. · Dec 20, 2001

Did you check the Kodak web site for the media type to use for the S800? I use Kodak Premium Picture Paper (High Gloss) and get wonderful prints. The trick is, as recommended on the Kodak web site specfically for the S800, to use Plain Paper setting and the slider set all the way to the right. It has to do with the composition of the paper and the way the ink is laid on the sheet. There was a discussion of this a couple of months back so if you want more user input you could do a search and come up with more info. Try the plain paper setting you'll be surprised!

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Blue60407 · Dec 20, 2001

Use the PhotoRecord software that came with your printer to do the printing. It'll save you a lot of paper!
Blue

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

--Blue

Jeff Pitman · Dec 20, 2001

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Chris,

I had the same problem with Kodak Premium Gloss and the S-800. I changed to Epson and no more dot problems.

Alan R · Dec 21, 2001

Chris, cannot help with your printing problems (yet) as I am still looking at where to buy S800. Could you share where you bought and how much you had to pay in this (over-priced UK) country?

Many thanks in advance and good luck with finding the solution.

--Alan R

brandt singley · Dec 21, 2001

It's the paper. I found some Kodak Ultima High-Gloss on sale a while back and bought a batch. I get the exact results you are describing. The ink seems to pool into dots before drying. I ran tests, using a small image and 24 different media type/print settings. None worked. The best prints came from the High Gloss Photo Film setting, but had the coarse dots you described. OK from a distance, but noticable upon closer inspection.

The only other paper I have tried is the Canon PPP. Beautiful. It may be that we are locked into one paper for this level of quality, but given the results, I'll accept that.

I still use the Kodak Ultima for quick prints of everyday images. The quality is certainly good enough for that.

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

dynacam · Dec 21, 2001

I have also tried Kodak Premium Ultra Glossy and followed the recommended settings (from Kodak site) and the pictures come out to red looking, not sure what other tricks to try.

As mentioned it maybe that Canon PPP is all we have got for those high quality prints ..

--dynacam(Graeme Knox)www.k-island.com

dgrogers · Dec 21, 2001

dynacam said:
As mentioned it maybe that Canon PPP is all we have got for those
high quality prints ..

That's not true at all. Try Konica QP with the Photo Film paper setting, turn off the ICM profile and subtract 10 points from saturation. It's every bit as good as Photo Paper Pro.

David S20661 · Dec 21, 2001

I had the same problem with the kodak paper.... turned out to be the ink pooling....

on the paper setting... light ink, big paper steps, not so much pooling.

on the PPP setting.... heavy ink, small paper steps, not enough time for the paper to absorb the ink.... result is blobs/ink pooling on anything greater than about a 70% fill.

create 0-100% gradation bands of various color and see what happens.

I'd stay away from the kodak and hp papers... Try the Ilford paper, works great.

later

ds

Chris Harlow said:
Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

aosty · Dec 22, 2001

Sue W. said:
Did you check the Kodak web site for the media type to use for the
S800? I use Kodak Premium Picture Paper (High Gloss) and get
wonderful prints. The trick is, as recommended on the Kodak web
site specfically for the S800, to use Plain Paper setting and the
slider set all the way to the right. It has to do with the
composition of the paper and the way the ink is laid on the sheet.
There was a discussion of this a couple of months back so if you
want more user input you could do a search and come up with more
info. Try the plain paper setting you'll be surprised!

I agree partway. I got some Kodak PPP and tried about a dozen variations of paper and quality settings. Kodak's recommended settings of plain paper + fine(1) setting does look great (colors/contast/etc.) as does high gloss photo film + fine(1).

However, if you look closely, there is obvious (but very fine) pixelation. It's as if each ink droplet just sticks and doesn't "blend" properly with the adjacent dot... or perhaps some droplets are just more pronounced than others.

Canon PPP just has this wonderful smoothness with no detectable pixelation. Side-by-side, it just doesn't compare. Does anyone know if Canon offers PPP in quantities other than just 15 per pack?

Sue W. said:
Chris Harlow said:

Hi,

I wonder if anyone out there can help me. Two (possibly separate)
problems with my recently arrived S800 to replace a 'dead' Epson
870:

1) Terribly coarse dots where there should be smooth gradation.

Tried printing from Photoshop using an image (macro) that had a
very blurred background with 'natural' (greens, browns etc)
colours. These areas came out horribly with what appears to be an
excessively coarse dither (clearly visible holding the print
several inches from the eye).

Paper was Kodak Ultima Satin and Kodak Premium Gloss. The only
partial solution seemed to be to change the media type. Changing
it to Photo Film reduced the problem but dots are still visible
where there should be a smooth tonal gradation. Saturation also
then becomes far too strong.

I tried various colour management policies but none made any
difference.

So, is it the paper (other threads seem to praise it) or am I
missing something important?

2) Poor colour reproduction.

I tried several methods, all from Photsohop 6 both with and without
the Canon ICM profile (is it really that generic sounding BJ
Printer Profile 1999 one). All produced very poor results - weak
yellows, overasturated greens, real problems with blue/purple/pink
transitions in flowers.

Again, am I missing something here?

Any advice that would stop me using several print cartridges and
packs of paper would be most welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Click to expand...

Chris Harlow · Dec 23, 2001

Thanks all - and apologies for the delay. I have been having severe Internet access problems - but thats another story.

It did, indeed, turn out that the Kodak paper is no good for the Canon, despite Kodak's claims.

Kodak Ultima Satin is a non-starter. Kodak Premium Gloss can be forced to work if you use the Plain Paper, Finest settings. It then falls into the 'acceptable' category.

Canon's own paper (Professional) produces superb results in terms of dealing with continuous tones - if a little over saturated. I also have some Instant Dry Photo Reproduction paper from http://www.theinkjetpapershop.co.uk . This stuff is gorgeous at a very heavy 260gsm and produces results that are almost identical to the 245 gsm Canon paper. It's better value too!

On the down side, colour accuracy leaves alot to be desired with all media I have tried. Problems range from a very severe pink cast to tones that should be on the blue side of magenta to more subtle errors. In comparison to my old Epson 870 the Canon is very poor in this area. Why do Canon not produce a decent ICM profile? The one supplied has major flaws even using Canon's own paper!

Chris

Steve Moore · Dec 23, 2001

Hello - kindly let me in here. I'm trying to manage color. E-mailed Canon & they e-mailed back printer profile: "cnb8700.icm". Has anyone heard of this? How do you use it for wisiwyg with monitor? I'm trying to avoid buying a colorimeter; are there any successful visual comparison methods w/ software? I'm sure that all of us with color shift problems would like to bring all this information into some usable format and get on with printing. Any suggestions? (I'll gladly share the results of my experimentation here if I can only find a jumping off place.) I'm using Jet Print PPP, which has a beautiful, smooth tonality, but tends to print too red. Thanks, Steve

Chris Harlow said:
Thanks all - and apologies for the delay. I have been having
severe Internet access problems - but thats another story.

It did, indeed, turn out that the Kodak paper is no good for the
Canon, despite Kodak's claims.

Kodak Ultima Satin is a non-starter. Kodak Premium Gloss can be
forced to work if you use the Plain Paper, Finest settings. It
then falls into the 'acceptable' category.

Canon's own paper (Professional) produces superb results in terms
of dealing with continuous tones - if a little over saturated. I
also have some Instant Dry Photo Reproduction paper from
http://www.theinkjetpapershop.co.uk . This stuff is gorgeous at a very
heavy 260gsm and produces results that are almost identical to the
245 gsm Canon paper. It's better value too!

On the down side, colour accuracy leaves alot to be desired with
all media I have tried. Problems range from a very severe pink
cast to tones that should be on the blue side of magenta to more
subtle errors. In comparison to my old Epson 870 the Canon is very
poor in this area. Why do Canon not produce a decent ICM profile?
The one supplied has major flaws even using Canon's own paper!

Chris

dgrogers · Dec 23, 2001

Chris Harlow said:
On the down side, colour accuracy leaves alot to be desired with
all media I have tried. Problems range from a very severe pink
cast to tones that should be on the blue side of magenta to more
subtle errors. In comparison to my old Epson 870 the Canon is very
poor in this area. Why do Canon not produce a decent ICM profile?
The one supplied has major flaws even using Canon's own paper!

I've found my 8200 is extremely accurate in color reproduction, so I'm sure the S800 would be too. Try the photo film paper setting if the paper is not Photo Paper Pro (I also set intensity to -10, leave output at normal, and increase detail when printing with Konica QP). I had the occasional color cast when I first gor the printer, unfortunately, I forgot what I did to solve the problem.

dynacam · Dec 23, 2001

In a thread back in November started by Sarah Booth there was talk also about colour problems with the S800 and a sugesstion was made by a "mjdewitt" that Canon had advised him to remove the canon color management profile that is installed with the driver, it was a mistake and should not have been loaded in the first place, In my case this would be the "CNBJPRN" (found under the printer properties, color management)

If this is removed what do I replace it with, I use Qimage to handle my printing and the printer ICC is set to sRGB.

Also under the canon printing preferences, color adjustment "enable icm" for WIN2K and XP will do color correction based on the default sRGB profile .. as I use Win2k maybe this will help.

I have not done any of the above yet as I to have spent a lot of time trying to get Kodak paper to work ..

Steve Moore said:
Chris Harlow said:

Thanks all - and apologies for the delay. I have been having
severe Internet access problems - but thats another story.

It did, indeed, turn out that the Kodak paper is no good for the
Canon, despite Kodak's claims.

Kodak Ultima Satin is a non-starter. Kodak Premium Gloss can be
forced to work if you use the Plain Paper, Finest settings. It
then falls into the 'acceptable' category.

Canon's own paper (Professional) produces superb results in terms
of dealing with continuous tones - if a little over saturated. I
also have some Instant Dry Photo Reproduction paper from
http://www.theinkjetpapershop.co.uk . This stuff is gorgeous at a very
heavy 260gsm and produces results that are almost identical to the
245 gsm Canon paper. It's better value too!

On the down side, colour accuracy leaves alot to be desired with
all media I have tried. Problems range from a very severe pink
cast to tones that should be on the blue side of magenta to more
subtle errors. In comparison to my old Epson 870 the Canon is very
poor in this area. Why do Canon not produce a decent ICM profile?
The one supplied has major flaws even using Canon's own paper!

Chris

Click to expand...

--dynacam(Graeme Knox)www.k-island.com

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