20D camera in hand and lost

Good day to you all.
I was hoping to ask you all a question regarding the Canon 20D.
I've always loved taking pictures and this past Christmas, I was given:
Canon 20D camera (standard lens) and;
Canon -EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens.

Well, I seem to be able to take good pictures in the day, but my night pictures just seem to never come out well.... I admit I am an amateur, as I've mostly used my smaller Sony Cyber-shot (DSC-P200)7.2MP camera.

But I want to take better night pictures. I've gotten and read some books on digital photography which go over the basics pretty well, but I somehow get the feeling that this may be "too much" camera for me at this point. (if that makes any sense)... From what I've read on this forum, I think to get good night/dark light shots, I may need a better lens (one with f/## in the

Again my problem is when I try to take pictures indoors (like at a wedding reception), everything just comes out too dark. If I slow the speed down, they come out blurry...

Anyone have suggestions for lenses that will help me in these indoor low light pictures? (Are they all expensive?)

Thanks,

Hopefully, I know there is probably a steep learning curve trying to figure things out with this camera, but I want to give it an honest shot.

-Luis

You really need a prime.
Look into the 35 2.0 , 50 1.8 or 1.4 , 85 1.8 ooooorrrr The 24 1.4L.
Another good one is 60 2.8 macro
--
Shoot.

Fast lenses with large apertures (f/2.8 or larger) will give you faster shutterspeeds to avoid motion blur. So faster lenses will help.

But cheapest is to increase the iso-value. With your 20D you can easily shoot at 800 or 1600 iso. Don't be afraid of using high iso's. I always shoot iso 800 or higher indoors.

With your zoom lens, try to stick to the wide end (28mm). Consumer zoomlenses are faster (have larger apertures) at the wide end.

And the best tip of all: Buy the Canon 50mm f/1.8 !! This is a very cheap lens but extremely fast and will give you amazingly sharp photos.

Hope this helps!

--
Kleppe

Ummm, is there a reason why you haven't mention flash in your post?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But it seems as though your are mainly concerned about exposure problems causing dark pictures at night. All you want to do is fix that problem to some degree without taking out a second mortgage.

If I am right, then what is stopping you from either using the built-in flash or stepping up to one of Canon's speedlights? For the type of images you are describing, flash is an almost must. And, there are second-hand flashes to be found that might make you an all round happy camper.

Just a thought.........

I had the same problem with my camera / lens combo and bought an 35mm f/2 lens to use indoors and it worked a treat but there were occasions when I would still not get the image I wanted. I do use the inbuilt flash but I prefer to get shots without flash as the lighting can be too harsh and unnatural. My wife hates any pics of her when I use the flash indoors!

I decided to teach myself some basic photography by setting the camera on a tripod and put it in manual mode and went and tried a whole load of different shutter speeds and aperture settings in low light and no light set ups and learnt what is happening to my images. Getting acceptable shots outside is relatively easy but I also love taking pictures of my family indoors and this exercise has given me more control and more confidence. I also understand how to get better depth of field or avoid it. All these auto settings had made me lazy! Your camera is not too much for you it just needs showing who is boss!

I should of been more clear.

I am using the bilt in flash, but it never seems to have the appropriate range. I'm sure that getting a speedlight will help with that, but I would rather improve the lens first to see how far that takes me rather than get an add-on flash. My main concern with the add on flash is that it will just be another piece I will have to carry with me... I know I may just have to break down and get it, but I would like to take some shots with just the built in flash. Plus, I'm sure no flash will help with long distance night shots outside. (I planned a trip to Paris in the beginging of July where I proposed to my girlfriend). I took some pictures of the eiffle tower while on a boat ride at night along the sine (sp?) river. They came out a little too blurry and I think a faster lens would of helped in that case where a flash would do nothing due to the distance....

Luis
P.S. She said yes!!!

naturephotog said:

Ummm, is there a reason why you haven't mention flash in your post?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But it seems as though your are
mainly concerned about exposure problems causing dark pictures at
night. All you want to do is fix that problem to some degree
without taking out a second mortgage.

If I am right, then what is stopping you from either using the
built-in flash or stepping up to one of Canon's speedlights? For
the type of images you are describing, flash is an almost must.
And, there are second-hand flashes to be found that might make you
an all round happy camper.

Just a thought.........

Click to expand...

I agree, all my life of using auto has made me lazy... Once I get a faster lens, I will take your advice and just practice, practice, practice....

I need to master all the settings on the camera while I'm at it... so that I can switch the settings in manual mode without having to even think about it and fumble around with the buttons...

-Luis

Stephen Pokora said:

I had the same problem with my camera / lens combo and bought an
35mm f/2 lens to use indoors and it worked a treat but there were
occasions when I would still not get the image I wanted. I do use
the inbuilt flash but I prefer to get shots without flash as the
lighting can be too harsh and unnatural. My wife hates any pics of
her when I use the flash indoors!

I decided to teach myself some basic photography by setting the
camera on a tripod and put it in manual mode and went and tried a
whole load of different shutter speeds and aperture settings in low
light and no light set ups and learnt what is happening to my
images. Getting acceptable shots outside is relatively easy but I
also love taking pictures of my family indoors and this exercise
has given me more control and more confidence. I also understand
how to get better depth of field or avoid it. All these auto
settings had made me lazy! Your camera is not too much for you it
just needs showing who is boss!

Click to expand...

The 24 1.4L is way out of my budget. (maybe I'll get it next x-mas)

The 50 1.8 is really cheap and the 85 1.8 is starting to get a little on the higher side. Is there a big difference in having a 1.8 vs 1.4?????

Thanks for the suggestion Nokem...

Luis

nokem said:

You really need a prime.
Look into the 35 2.0 , 50 1.8 or 1.4 , 85 1.8 ooooorrrr The 24
1.4L.
Another good one is 60 2.8 macro
--
Shoot.

Click to expand...

You and Nokum have suggested the 50 1.8 and considering how cheap it is... It can't hurt to try it out!!!!....

I'll also increase the ISO a bit and try some test shots.

Thanks......

Kleppe said:

Fast lenses with large apertures (f/2.8 or larger) will give you
faster shutterspeeds to avoid motion blur. So faster lenses will
help.

But cheapest is to increase the iso-value. With your 20D you can
easily shoot at 800 or 1600 iso. Don't be afraid of using high
iso's. I always shoot iso 800 or higher indoors.
With your zoom lens, try to stick to the wide end (28mm). Consumer
zoomlenses are faster (have larger apertures) at the wide end.

And the best tip of all: Buy the Canon 50mm f/1.8 !! This is a very
cheap lens but extremely fast and will give you amazingly sharp
photos.

Hope this helps!

--
Kleppe

Click to expand...

Falcore,

the fat lens may help - and you certainly seem keen to get one.

Just a few questions - what sort of focal length are you normally using when you are indoors - the 28mm end, the 135mm end, or around the middle.

If around the middle, I suggest that the best thing for you to do, is addthe cheapest lens in Canon's line up - the 50/1.8. This will give you at least 2 stops advantage over the 28-135 you have now, which basically means you can use a shutter speed 4 times slower (ie 1/100 sec instead of 1/25 sec). The 1.4 version adds an extra half stop, so you can shoot at 125ish. These speeds will certainly help with motion blur caused by slow shutter indoors.

What it will also do, is when you follow the advice of Stephen Pokora, it'll be a great tool for learning about Depth of Field effects, and is a great way to learn about photography (ie the 28-135 you have now won't pronounce the effects quite as much).

--
http://planeguy.mine.nu/pictures

Buy Canon's greatest price/performance ratio lens, the 50mm f/1.8 prime, for as low as ~$80 (or less).

This lens is truly a mandatory piece for everybody.


by T2k!

Why does most people automatically suggest fast lenses when it comes to low light photography?

Fast lens set at wide aperture do not go well with close range indoor people shots. Unless half out of focus pictures is their thing. Or worst, totally out of focus pictures.
Your 28-135IS is fine. It will take some fine low light photos.

Don't be shy, just crank up the ISO. This is what Canon DSLRs are famous for. Take it all the way to ISO 3200 if you have too. ISO1600 still take very good pictures. ISO3200 will still give good results process through some noise reduction software, like Neat Image or Noise Ninja.

A nice powerful external flash, like the 580EX, is a must for indoor photos. External flashes also emit focus assist beams for positive focus regardless of light condition or subject contrast. Flash photography do not have to have that 'in-the-headlight look'. Learn to bounce the flash. Of course, also crank-up the ISO with flash use too.

Now I understand a little better. But, you still might have to look into an external flash in the not too distant future. A fast lens might get you what you want some of the time. But, there will be times when you will still become frustrated with your results.

If you do decide to get into flash photography, the best way to get the most out of it and be pleased with the results is to get a good diffuser. The Lightsphere II is amazing for providing the proper skin tones, eliminating shadows and sharpening the eyes.

Good luck.........

Increase the ISO - be aware of some trade off in noise (compared to daylight pictures)

50mm/1.8 - there's no cheaper wide aperture lens to learn to use in low light.

After doing the above, I just bought the 17-55/2.8 IS. Only had it a few days but it's definately very impressive in low light.

Good day!

The equipment you already own are up to doing the job - but if you feel the need to spend some money, get the 50/1.8 - it is an amazing piece of gear for so little money.

first off, up the ISO for indoors - remember that with film, we used different speeds for different uses....
100 - bright outdoors, landscape etc
200 - cloudy/overcast, general use for amateurs
400 - indoor, evening, outdoor sports, astrophotography
800 - indoor sports, nighttime
1600 - ultralow light, dim indoor sports, fashion

the files generated by your 20D are very good, even right up to ISO3200 - be unafraid to 'crank it up' to keep your shutter speeds in the range you want - I'm guessing that would be about 1/125s?

also, practice good photographic techniques - tripod or bracing etc..

Cheers,
Scotty
--

• How deep does the Rabbit Hole go? *

Free the Images
My XT IS Full Frame -- APS-C/FF of course!

Remember, that the 20D uses apertures up to 2.8 to gain focus (as opposed to 5.6 with other cameras) - that is 4 times teh light!!!

That is where faster lenses come in for me. I up the ISO to get the shutter speed I want with a stepped up aperture for better DoF like everyone suggested, but when using a fast lens, the focus gain is that much faster!

And I join everyone else in suggesting the 50/1.8. You will not regret getting it.

--

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Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who it's friends are...

It has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting you. - Douglas Adams

Your 28-135 is an exceptional low light lens!!! Turn on the IS, crank the ISO, us AV mode and open it up! Yes you might have movement blur from dancers using available reception type lighting, but if you use the builtin flash at iso 800 with the 28-135 you are going to get some really good shots! I am not from the "add equipment to see if it solves the problem", but rather I try to work with what I have and it makes me a better photographer and has over the past 18 years....

Yes the 50 1.8 is nice, but you have a very limited range with the lens, the 85 is cool too but swapping lenses at a dark reception to get what you need is not exactly fun and the action usually moves pretty quick, so you have to be fast at those lens changes....

10d, 28-135, built in flash, ISO 800...

Falcore said:

I should of been more clear.
I am using the bilt in flash, but it never seems to have the
appropriate range.

Click to expand...

There is the special little trick embedded inside the 20D to help you out. It is called FEC or Flash Exposure Compensation. The on-camera flash is set up as a fill flash, that is the ambient light does most of the illumination and the flash makes the faces brighter. What you are looking for is a real flash. So find the FEC, and dial it up to +1.66 or +2 and try some of those flash shots again.

Falcore said:

I'm sure that getting a speedlight will help
with that, but I would rather improve the lens first to see how far
that takes me rather than get an add-on flash. My main concern
with the add on flash is that it will just be another piece I will
have to carry with me... I know I may just have to break down and
get it, but I would like to take some shots with just the built in
flash. Plus, I'm sure no flash will help with long distance night
shots outside.

Click to expand...

Get a tripod, find the mirror lock up function and figure out hos to use the built in timer, or get a remote shutter. Long exposure night shots can be simply fabulous (done right).

Falcore said:

(I planned a trip to Paris in the beginging of July
where I proposed to my girlfriend). I took some pictures of the
eiffle tower while on a boat ride at night along the sine (sp?)
river. They came out a little too blurry and I think a faster lens
would of helped in that case where a flash would do nothing due to
the distance....

Click to expand...

I suggest a better lens is the starting point. The 18-55 or 17-85 is "not all that fast". A cheap $60-$100 50mm F/1.8 will tell you if it is the lens of the camer that is holding these shots back. Cheaper than a new flash.

Since you seem to be having troubles getting the image recorded well, I suggest (seriously) that you change to RAW format. This requires more post processing but it lets you save those underexposed shotst that JPG does not allow you to save. As a side benefit, you can correct the color tonality, the white balance, and a myriad of other things that make just plaini average shots look great to you friends.
--
Mitch