Can you believe ISO800??? (H5)

Hi, R2.

Won't be the first time you've got me confused! :-)

Great shot, BTW. Expression, composition, skin tone. Just marvelous. You seem to have captured "roguish innocence" perfectly! He looks like butter would melt in his mouth, but that he wouldn't be beyond a little high-spirited fun!!

But this 100% crop baffled me enough that I had to go back and see if it was from the same picture as the one in the original post!

Some thoughts:

1) Glad you didn't do any NR in post-processing. According to your 100% crop, it appears that the camera has already noise-reduced this image to the limit! Any more NR will turn this thing into a watercolor.

2) Which brings up my confusion, which may actually prove a point many have been saying for a long time. The image in your first post is so sharp and beautifully-contrasted, I have to assume you added a lot of that in PP.

The 100% crop shows a fairly serious loss of detail: the eyelashes are almost gone, the eyebrows almost blend with the skin above the eyes, the edge of the irises have been "chewed" by noise and the skin texture is pretty much washed out! (Have I missed anything?) :-)

I don't mean to throw a wet blanket here, R2, or even to pixel-peep. You know what I'm referring to and I'm wondering how you overcame the lost information in your beautiful shot?

In this area, I think I'm still a skeptic. But I -can- be convinced!!

It seems to me that this camera, at ISO 800 can produce a wonderful low-res Web-Snap or a small print without too much difficulty. Which is a wonderful accomplishment for any camera with a sensor this dense and small.

But have you blown it up to, for example, to an 8X10 print? How does it look, esp. vis-a-vis detail.

So far, from my very brief experience with ISO 800 on the H5, I would be reluctant to recommend that people try it when they need to stop the motion of a child -- unless it's the only way they can get the picture.

Imagine the same stunning picture with each perfect eyelash, each strand of hair luminous and individual.... and if you could stop the action, wouldn't the IQ be positively brilliant at ISO 200 or even 400?

I've yet to figure out the effect of in-camera NR (that Clear-Raw technology seems to be pretty impressive) over the different ISO ranges and exposures. Sony seems to be getting much better (and less-destructive) results working on the data-stream than I would ever get working on the .jpg.

Your thoughts?

--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
 
Thanks for the wonderful tips!! I do tend to underexpose so this is very valuable information. And yes, movie clips. That is something I truly need to remember!!!!!!! On the 4th of July I am shooting stills of the Pelicans from a moving boat. Sheesh.

Thanks again, I would love to have you and yours there on our trip ;-))) Check out Bandon on the Internet if you have time, we will be right on the beach and what a beach it is. Huge monoliths and colorful starfish.

This is the final anniversary celebration. (I know it has been going on for 2 months but hey) Both kids were married on the same day as we were so we are celebrating....40, 12 and 1. I wanted everyone to celebrate their own special day in their own special way but wanted a bang up joint celebration too.

I will say it again and again, the info that you impart to this forum is priceless.

Cheers, Denise
--
http://www.PBase.com/dchip
V1/H1/H5
 
I thought the reason for going to high ISO besides the speed was
less need for light?
You'll always need to get the exposure right though. This image
underexposed by 1 stop would be junk. At ISO800, underexposed
areas will be VERY noisy.
Hi again R2,

I downloaded the pic and checked your setting for exposure program. Given your statement about underexposure, what EV did you use and did you use a flash?

I don't see any slight shadows, so I'm thinking you set to no flash. If you set to no flash that greatly explains the 800 ISO and 3.7 F stop.

Regarding taking pictures of the sky, when you bump up the EV, appx how much do you bump it up?

I avoid using the flash or turn it down (love the adj flash) unless I have to fight with another light source. So any tips about light level and EV are greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the tips - Nito
 
Nice! And it looks like it was done with a Panny F7! Well, OK. Just kidding.
dang you, R2, don't show me that!!! now you're making me want an H5!!

illona
In all honesty, I think that in good light at low ISO's, the H1
does turn out somewhat better images. When the light starts
getting low (or you need flash), the H5 really shows its stuff.

All depends on your priorities.
Cheers,
R2
I agree with you R2. I've been using the "H1" for some time now
and I've never been afraid of the noise that it has even at ISO400!
H1 users should experiment (as you are doing with your H5) with the
higher ISO settings. The noise that is created in the camera
circuitry can be used as a tool instead of a "taboo"! ;-)

I've posted a few examples of the noise (or lack of) in the H1 at
ISO400 but here's another one:



I've done nothing to this image except scale it for posting here.
No cropping, no NR, no PP of any kind.

It was a rainy day and I was using the H1 with an Olympus TCON17
and the photo was shot through my patio window. This little
sparrow was sitting on a branch just watching it rain. After all,
what else is there to do on a rainy day! LOL.. Too bad this little
critter didn't have an "H1" to play with, but I did! The lighting
was so poor that as you can see from the EXIF info the camera was
zoomed to 72mm, ISO400, f4 with a shutter speed of 1/60s and
remember the TCON17 was being used!

The trick to shooting at high ISO settings (as everyone is finding
out) is getting the exposure right!

Notice that the area behind and above the bird's head IS noisy but
the bird and the leaf that's in the same focal plane are sharp and
pretty much noise free. I took this picture with the cam set to
"P" program mode since I was in a hurry to snap the shot but I
don't think I could have done a better job in manual mode.
Generally when I shoot at a high ISO setting I prefer to use manual
and adjust my settings while keeping in mind that I want to keep
the lens set to around f/4 if possible (5.6) at the highest and
then adjust the speed until I get a 0EV indication while metering
on my subject.

I've looked at this image with the chroma noise removed (using Cool
Pix) but for my preference I like it just as it came from the cam!
When I use Cool Pix I only remove chroma noise and leave the
lumanance noise because, there again, for my taste, a little noise
in the right place can add to the picture. Also, I don't like the
smudged look that removing the lunance noise causes.

R2, you've posted a great example here that supports my feeling
that noise isn't as much of a problem in the newer cams if they are
used properly as originally thought. I've been reading, while
bitting my lip, posts on this forum and others just waiting for
someone else to have an opinion that supports mine! :-)

Take care and thanks for lookin'!

Lawrence d:o)
 
I have been printing 20x30 inch once they have been framed the glass actually smooths out the noise abit, but if you are going to Pixel peep,dont waste your time.If you view them at arms length and maybe closer you will be pleasantly surprised. With the type of images you have been taking and your quality of Composition the last thing people will be looking at or for is noise.I think thats what alot of people have lost sight of ,if the picture's content captures the eye..the noise wont even be seen :)

cheers

Ralph
in some cases the noise gives
the image a beautiful smoothing effect.

nice shot

Ralph
Thanks Ralph.

I get so obsessed over Eliminating noise, that I should really give
your method a try - working WITH the noise. Thanks for the tip.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
--
http://ralphmeznar.smugmug.com
' You don't know where your going till you know where you've been '
 
GREAT - more parameters to suss out in my head. LOL - just kidding.

Looking over your gallery I had same reaction to many of A.Girard's pictures. Simply love their creaminess. Gives me something to shoot for...

thanks! Daniel
You really have to give this a try Daniel. Keep exposures on the
high side.
Have fun,
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
--

H5, H1 (I sold this one on eBay for 287 plus shipping), HP 945 (I still have this one - takes superb indoor shots), Love (this is my most impt piece of equipment - cheesy laff goes here)
 
ISO 1000 and beautiful portrait will try some portraits after exams ;-)
Lots of company this past week. Kids running all over, inside and
out. It was a good test of the H5 to be sure.

It was very handy to be able to use the higher ISO's a bit more
freely (with the H5 vs. the H1). But I still couldn't believe my
eyes when I read the EXIF on this shot. Photoshopped, but no Noise
Reduction applied...

1/400 sec @ f3.7, ISO800 at max zoom.



In good light, this ISO setting is indeed very usable. IQ holds up
even at much larger image sizes than this.

The next time you're outside and need some extra shutter speed,
give the high ISO's a try. You might be as (pleasantly) surprised
as I.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
--
Nature is God's Art ,Art is Man's nature
http://www.awais.smugmug.com
 
Lots of company this past week. Kids running all over, inside and
out. It was a good test of the H5 to be sure.

It was very handy to be able to use the higher ISO's a bit more
freely (with the H5 vs. the H1). But I still couldn't believe my
eyes when I read the EXIF on this shot. Photoshopped, but no Noise
Reduction applied...

1/400 sec @ f3.7, ISO800 at max zoom.



In good light, this ISO setting is indeed very usable. IQ holds up
even at much larger image sizes than this.

The next time you're outside and need some extra shutter speed,
give the high ISO's a try. You might be as (pleasantly) surprised
as I.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
--
Nature is God's Art ,Art is Man's nature
http://www.awais.smugmug.com
--
Nature is God's Art ,Art is Man's nature
http://www.awais.smugmug.com
 
It was a rainy day and I was using the H1 with an Olympus TCON17
and the photo was shot through my patio window. This little
sparrow was sitting on a branch just watching it rain. After all,
what else is there to do on a rainy day! LOL..
You captured one beautiful special moment. That's certainly what counts above all else.
R2, you've posted a great example here that supports my feeling
that noise isn't as much of a problem in the newer cams if they are
used properly as originally thought. I've been reading, while
bitting my lip, posts on this forum and others just waiting for
someone else to have an opinion that supports mine! :-)

Take care and thanks for lookin'!

Lawrence d:o)
Agree with you wholeheartedly.
Really nice tute too.

Happy shooting,
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 
Wow! What an excellent picture! I love it! And that's 800 ISO?????
 
GREAT - more parameters to suss out in my head. LOL - just kidding.
Photography is like Chess. The basic moves are rather easy, but then there are zillions of nuances!
Looking over your gallery I had same reaction to many of A.Girard's
pictures. Simply love their creaminess. Gives me something to shoot
for...

thanks! Daniel
Thanks again Daniel. Anne is a wonderful photographer.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 
Given your statement about underexposure, what EV did you use and
did you use a flash?
I don't see any slight shadows, so I'm thinking you set to no
flash. If you set to no flash that greatly explains the 800 ISO and
3.7 F stop.
No flash. No exposure compensation. The camera was right on.

The kids were all playing on the swings and slides. I had the ISO way up there so I could (help) stop the motion blur. This was just a "portrait of opportunity."
Regarding taking pictures of the sky, when you bump up the EV, appx
how much do you bump it up?
( + ) 0.7 to 1.3 EV is a good starting point.
I avoid using the flash or turn it down (love the adj flash) unless
I have to fight with another light source. So any tips about light
level and EV are greatly appreciated.
I try to avoid using flash too. However a little fill flash (slow synchro) can sometimes give a pic just the right touch (love the adj flash also!).

H5
ISO400
1/20 sec @ f3.5
Slow Synchro flash (-2 E/V)
Noise Ninja/Photoshop



--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 
Wow! What an excellent picture! I love it! And that's 800 ISO?????
I couldn't believe it when I saw the EXIF! The photo gods were on my side for sure. I think I'll have to print one up for them. See how it holds up at 8x10.

Cheers Kski,
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 
Great shot, BTW. Expression, composition, skin tone. Just
marvelous. You seem to have captured "roguish innocence"
perfectly! He looks like butter would melt in his mouth, but that
he wouldn't be beyond a little high-spirited fun!!
Thanks Alan. It was a wonderful week. My wife's family all got together (at her folks'). My camera was glued to my right hand!
1) Glad you didn't do any NR in post-processing. According to your
100% crop, it appears that the camera has already noise-reduced
this image to the limit! Any more NR will turn this thing into a
watercolor.
Absolutely. The very limits of this camera.
2) Which brings up my confusion, which may actually prove a point
many have been saying for a long time. The image in your first post
is so sharp and beautifully-contrasted, I have to assume you added
a lot of that in PP.
Yup. All H5 high ISO shots need a fair amount of post processing.
The 100% crop shows a fairly serious loss of detail: the eyelashes
are almost gone, the eyebrows almost blend with the skin above the
eyes, the edge of the irises have been "chewed" by noise and the
skin texture is pretty much washed out! (Have I missed anything?)
:-)

I don't mean to throw a wet blanket here, R2, or even to
pixel-peep. You know what I'm referring to and I'm wondering how
you overcame the lost information in your beautiful shot?
Fortunately, enough of it was still there to use. Heck, I'm used to processing the likes of ISO400 DSC-T1 shots! Now THERE'S a challenge!

My niece at ISO400 (T1):


In this area, I think I'm still a skeptic. But I -can- be convinced!!

It seems to me that this camera, at ISO 800 can produce a wonderful
low-res Web-Snap or a small print without too much difficulty.
Which is a wonderful accomplishment for any camera with a sensor
this dense and small.

But have you blown it up to, for example, to an 8X10 print? How
does it look, esp. vis-a-vis detail.
I'll probably print one up this weekend to give to them (nephew).
So far, from my very brief experience with ISO 800 on the H5, I
would be reluctant to recommend that people try it when they need
to stop the motion of a child -- unless it's the only way they can
get the picture.
I guess my explanation could really be found here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=19178997
Imagine the same stunning picture with each perfect eyelash, each
strand of hair luminous and individual.... and if you could stop
the action, wouldn't the IQ be positively brilliant at ISO 200 or
even 400?
DSLR-land, here I come!
I've yet to figure out the effect of in-camera NR (that Clear-Raw
technology seems to be pretty impressive) over the different ISO
ranges and exposures. Sony seems to be getting much better (and
less-destructive) results working on the data-stream than I would
ever get working on the .jpg.

Your thoughts?
I'm just thrilled with the progress. I was quite worried for a couple of years though as many of Sony's offerings tended to overprocess images somewhat (I think it started with the T1!). They've seemed to have found a nice balance with their Noise Reduction lately.

Now I just hope they'll revisit the F-Series! Swivel body, moderate zoom, faaaaast lens. Macro-city for me.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 
Hey R2,

Great tips! I'm still getting used to the H2, hard to break old habits, LOL!

Based on your tips, I've been able to take shots in the shade using minimal flash or no flash! Just bump up the EV and avoid washout in the background! I'm still just using ISO 200, when I get better, I'll bump it up to ISO 400 then 800.

Thanks again for all the tips!

Nito
 
1) Don't hold your breath on an F-successor. Sony has their hands full with the DSLRs now. I'd be willing to bet te prosumers of all types (even the R1) will be history shortly. Why compete with themselves that way when they're trying to establish a brand new presence in a challenging market?

2) You're right about the ISO 800. I mentioned that in my thread about "first concert" (I even mentioned your name - give credit were credit is due!). I did an entire shoot at ISO 800. Needed a little NoiseWare PRO (just chroma, no luma) and a little smart-sharpen. My big surprise was that it didn't need any boost in saturation at all.

Anyway, I might not have gotten every wart, but I am still pretty impressed with where I ended up.

3) Don't even imagine that the DSLR will deliver the faultless higher ISO's you'd dream of. Doesn't happen. In fact, most DSLR's max out clean at ISO 400 (with some noise in shadows) and even the best (certain Canons) max out at ISO 800 clean (with a little assist from NR, of course. What do you think causes some of the "creamy" Canon look? :-)

If you check the other thread, there's a link to my full gallery from this shoot. I started out with the Nikon D200, and the results were, to be honest, poor. Lots of chroma AND luminance noise. I don't believe ISO 800 is usable on the Nikon - and that's a $1700 body! The H5 did a much better job, which is clearly visible in the pictures.

If the H5 had instant AF and no shutter lag and a hot shoe, I'd have no need for the DSLR. Just spent another $2000 on lenses for it today. Desperately trying to make that investment useful. Not succeeded, to date. I suspect it's just a terrible low-light camera.

--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
 
Based on your tips, I've been able to take shots in the shade using
minimal flash or no flash! Just bump up the EV and avoid washout in
the background!
Glad to see things working for you. You're a quick study!
I'm still just using ISO 200, when I get better,
I'll bump it up to ISO 400 then 800.
Keep the ISO as low as possible to preserve image quality. Only bump it up when things get too blurry.
Thanks again for all the tips!

Nito
My pleasure. Truly.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 

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