Is the xD format hindering Fuji?

I don't own any dSLR nor will I for a wihle, but from what I gathered, the memory cards are just peanuts compared to the total money invested in a dSLR system (referring to accesoires and lenses)

As you need to buy almost everything new (perhaps you can reuse your tripod or monopod, and perhaps the memory card, but that's it) when you're going down the dSLR route for the first time, I don't think one or two cards already in your posession ought to be a deal breaker.

It might be a different story if you have an entire collection of a certain type of course....

Which they do....

Marcel Geers said:

I don't own any dSLR nor will I for a wihle, but from what I
gathered, the memory cards are just peanuts compared to the total
money invested in a dSLR system (referring to accesoires and lenses)

As you need to buy almost everything new (perhaps you can reuse
your tripod or monopod, and perhaps the memory card, but that's it)
when you're going down the dSLR route for the first time, I don't
think one or two cards already in your posession ought to be a deal
breaker.

It might be a different story if you have an entire collection of a
certain type of course....

Click to expand...

In the case of the D50, the kit price is around $700. By including the SD slot it is a nice little bonus for a good chunk of P&S users who might be upgrading to this camera. Whether or not they add lenses and tripods and other gear is a whole different issue.

--
Nick

you can't bridge (convert) xd to sd - that is not even physically possible. but there -are- converters to take either xd or sd and have them physically sit inside the converter and provide CF interface and shell to the camera.

that's really the only clean way to wean people off prop mem formats over to either cf or sd.

and its also a way to save face (which is a significant part of the deal, I think). as long as your customers who bought a bunch (or even 1) xd card can continue to use your new series of cams, you are ok with them. and the only way to do that is to have a CF slot (at least).

would you need more? no. should you have more? probably; include a native sd-slot. but don't just make it an alternative to the cf slot - auto-spillover from one to the other so you get combined storage if you want to use both slots at once. or even redundancy, if you choose that mode. but make the 2 slots more than the sum of 2 individual slots, in an either/or selection.

once they get rid of -native- xd or mem stick slots, no new xd/ms cards would have to be manufactured or sold (in theory). everyone gets to use their existing media and no new tie-ins based on card type anymore. win/win.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

Of course it does...

There are other proprietary formats that have hurt others - take the Walkman from Sony the number one music player in its time

fast forward to 2006 are they still number one? No, why because of their insistence in sticking with proprietary formats such as ATRAC media files instead of MP3/memory stick, finally bowing to public pressure allowing mp3's on their players.

Open source would be ideal, but JPEG isn't open source either, yet every camera uses it?

As a company, you need to earn money. Developing something like a completely new image format, requires investing time and resources. These people don't program these things in their attic in their spare time, they do it for a living. MS has the advantage to introduce this format basicly on their own within their operating system. Like it or not, it is a widely used operating system world wide.

Doing it the "proper" way (besides the fact if proper means "open" or not), means that a vast majority of manufacturers of software and hardware should agree upon a standard, which is certified and adopted. This may take years and years or even the better part of a decade! It is the "only" proper way around the chicken and egg problem.

MS has the power to introduce their own format (just like Adobe has with the RAW discussion) without the whole big hussle of standardisation. Just like with .wma and other MS related file topologies. The big advantage in this is that the time to market of a new technology becomes ALOT shorter.

The downside is that "the rest of the world" can't "help" in improving a format or applications that easily without licenses from the companies in question. This is what Open Souce is all about, right?

You know probably alot more about this than I do, but from what I've seen happening with regard to Open Source is that usually the ideas of propriatary formats\technologies\etc. are cloned from scratch, coded in a fashion that seems the "better way". So in fact there has to be a company introducing a system before the Open Source community shows it can be done in a different way too.

In short : it is the most cost effective way for MS to do it like this and it might be the start of another format down the line which will effectively replace JPEG. I'm not saying that this will be MS' format.

This discussion is NOT about how MS gained such a wide distribution, please don't turn it into that.

Nothing there I can disagree on.

I have a question for you. Have you ever seen one of those tediously long TV ads (called "paid tv") in Canada which go on for about 30 minutes? Usually they are to sell some gimmicky home gym equipment like the "bowflex" or some massager or carpet cleaner or whatever.

Often these ads have something like "order in the next 15 minutes and recieve not one but two...." You get the idea.

Well I always wondered what kind of person buys that stuff. Similarly with shopping channels and the garbage pap jewelry and "super-never-needs-sharpening kitchen knives". The thing that characterises all such products is the need for EXTENSIVE marketing in order to sell a very cheaply made gimmick at a massive markup. The long ad is trying to bombard you in all direction to convince you that you need it and that your life won't be complete without it.

The visible dust website is an absolute classic using terms like "bio technology" "DNA" and other nonesense to essentially sell a 50 cent product for a 20,000% markup ($100).

Well the xD card situation is quite different but it is related. It is a cynical marketing ploy that rather than take advantage of stupid people like visible dust/shopping channel etc takes advantage of IGNORANT people like our parents and all the other first-time, non-technically minded digicam buyers.

That IMO is actually worse than ripping off the stupid people. Anyway people like us with our small voices are the only chance of a warning that the vulnerable have.

I stand up for the consumer against these marketing tactics.

--

'Silence! What is all this insolence? You will find yourself in gladiator school vewy quickly with wotten behaviour like that.'

I think the problems you mentioned with regards to Fuji are of a far more serious nature than the choice whether or not to "invest" in xD cards.

Your experience with Fuji sounds like alot better reason, for you, not to buy a Fuji than the xD card issue.

Personally, I think Fuji needs to address such issues first before they start to worry about xD card sale losses.

--
Nick

Marcel Geers wrote:
SNIP

Again, all true and correct.

Marcel Geers said:

This discussion is NOT about how MS gained such a wide
distribution, please don't turn it into that.

Click to expand...

I won't

On open source, I am an advocate but it's not really what I am talking about. I am talking about open standards. There are many file formats that adhere to internationally agreed formats, designed for portability between systems and for minimal obsolescence. RTF is one such format. I find it absolutely scandalous that crucial government documents which may have to be readable in fifty years time are kept in .doc format. Word has trouble opening .doc files from just a few years ago, there is no way that Word 2055 running on Vista 2055 will be able to open them. And don't think you'll be able to install Office 2000 on that OS. You won't.

"Built-in obsolescence" is just another marketing technique to maximise profits at the consumers expense.

--

'Silence! What is all this insolence? You will find yourself in gladiator school vewy quickly with wotten behaviour like that.'

You made me smile there....

"We" at home bought a vacuum cleaner from a salesperson at the door actually (I think it's comparable)....it was a very clever sales person, acting exactly like those TellSell commercials, I was laughing very loudly internally, but the irritating thing was that the product he was selling was actually alot better than the product we already had and which was in need of replacement anyways......

About my S5500 purchase: it is aimed at those that want megazoom(10x), that don't want to spent too much money on a megazoom, want decent image quality, RAW, full control, but it shouldn't cost too much....

Well, meet me

I knew about its flaws, the small sensor and thus the noise (which can be considered as acceptable...), the useless manual focus and I gave the xD card some serious thought, as I already experienced the limitations of SmartMedia and now they were doing it all over again with a more advanced format...those being the most important flaws to me.

But all the advantages outtwayed these features. Enter the pricetag: about €280,- at the time. There was simply no other camera offering this quality and feature set for that price. Even with the more expensive xD card, other manufacturers just couldn't (can't?) do it for the total end price. Perhaps that's the reasoning behind a more expensive xD card (or is really just a matter of quantities sold?): they can produce cameras at very competitive prices which can be used as a safety valve for the xD format.

Read the following only if interested, it's just some thinking out loud

I think the same still applies to the S5600 at the moment. The story might be different for the compacts like the F30, as the competition in that arena is far more fierce and the xD card might increase the total package price to tip the balance, but it's all a personal decision.

Yes, xD is more expensive, yes the use of the card type is controversial, but Fuji attempts to fill up gaps in the camera lines of other manufacturers by putting out cameras with feature sets which fall in between other cameras thus leaving room for lower price sets and it worked for me, so they must be doing it right somehow! furthermore, after owning a S5k series camera of Fuji, the only real possible upgrade in terms of new photographic abillities, is either a top-of-the-line model by any manufacturer or a dSLR........It almost seems as if they designed the camera to be just that: a stepstone for a bigger camera, I applaud them for that (don't confuse this with the urge of some users to upgrade each compact with a newer model when it comes out)

Fuji does not have the abillity to get into the low budget dSLR market, so they focus on the top-of-the-line models. Here too, they have no direct competition. They out-class the Canon S-series and the like, but in that respect, they're also more expensive. They're aiming at very specific market segments. Canon only has one megazoom camera series and it is loaded with features and what it lacks, is covered by the Fuji top of the line models. Vice versa, what the S5k series lack (deliberately I guess) is present in the Canon and Panasonic megazooms. IMHO the only real competition for the S5k series are the panasonics.....

This being nice and all, the real money is being made at the compact and ultra-compact market segments. I don't really know how the prices of different brands compare, so I don't know if the price issue of the xD card is a real practical issue there.