Slow lenses....why are they slow?

I note that it's difficult to get good data about R1 sales. I think
it's because the Marketing Department is in charge of disseminating
information and they don't really want the R1 to succeed. They
spent billions and billions on KM and it's important that the dSLR
line do well. Perhaps after it is selling well, the Engineers will
be allowed to produce an R2?

All companies I worked at had these battles. And there are classic
stories of others, like the Corvair (car, not boat or plane), which
GM Marketing ruined.
I have to agree about marketing, for the most part. I spent a very,
very long year and a half a few years ago working in the Internet
marketing department of a mail order company. The MBA I worked for
almost had brains enough to spell cat--if you spotted her the "c"
and "t" there was a 50-50 chance she'd get it right. Her favorite
saying to me: "Research less and write more."

But Corvair wasn't ruined, totally, by GM Marketing, though they
had a share. A guy named Ralph Nader made a big deal about a wheel
hop problem that had much in common with all of the then current
rear engine cars, such as VW and Porsche. Nader picked the one that
would bring the biggest amount of publicity for himself, and
history was written, sort of, in "Unsafe At Any Speed," a title
that was total BS, as was most of the Nader case against the
Corvair. GM management was stupid enough to play right into his
hands, instead of just ignoring him, except for a bland statement
that would have left him high and dry.
Nader was too late to "ruin" the Corvair. He just "killed" it. Did you own a Corvair? How about a Porsche? I did...still got the Porsche(s).

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
 
Just because a camera isn't a reflex doesn't mean it can't have an
OVF, you know. Look at the thread mourning the loss of OVF in
compacts.
Why should i use juice just to see if the camera could do justice
to the picture I'm seeing.

Also, I'm with Petteri. Sony engineers built a nice camera ,as a
P&S upgrade. It's not intended to 'compete' with any DSLR, hence it
being compromised in places, but those areas are not that important
to the "shooting the family n dog" brigade.

I very much doubt any marketing dept would ask engineering to 'dumb
down' a camera. Ever. An R1 and an Alpha are NOT aimed at the same
buyer, unless that buyer is a DSLR user wanting a high quality P&S
machine... And let's face it, Sony is sitting on ZERO market share
of DSLR right now.
Real TTL OVF...compacts with lots of zoom always have EVF's, probably since its very hard making a OVF that gives somewhat correct framing throughout the zoom.

Anyway, R1 ain't a DSLR and of course it ought to have live readings from the display, as all other compacts do. I dont get what he meant by that....offering megapixels to implement live view :S
My 2d.
--
  1. ######
  2. ####_O Tim Yorath
  3. ### />
  4. ### @ UK.
  5. ## >
http://catmangler.smugmug.com/
 
I must have misunderstood your original statement; it's exactly as you say -- constant-aperture zooms were designed specifically to be constant-aperture to make them simpler to use. By "fundamental to the design" I meant that the property hasn't been "tacked on" afterwards, e.g. by stopping down the iris when zooming out. I.e., you can't make a constant-aperture zoom brighter at the wide end without making very significant changes to the design.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
 
Yup. In particular, expect, say, a 24-70 (equiv.) to be a good deal
bigger than, say, a 35-105 (equiv), even though both have similar
aperture ranges and zoom ratios (roughly 3x).
This statement is only correct if the sensor size attached to each
lens is different. Given sensors or the same size the 35-105 would
be the larger lens especially to have the same f value.
Nope, it wouldn't. The reason is that 24 mm requires a pretty complex reverse-telephoto lens design, and a large front element to prevent vignetting, while 35 mm can be done with a much simpler design. So if all else (optical quality, brightness) was equal, the 24-70 would be the bigger lens.
It is probably a big mistake to use "equivelent" focal lengths to
explain this topic. The question was about the relationship of lens
speed to the size of a lens and why none of it makes sense. Your
statment above while illustrating why its confusing with digital
cameras and does little to explain why. Sorry Just my opinion.
You're clearly right, since you appear not to have understood what I said.
Sensor size does
matter a quite a lot: lenses are three-dimensional objects, which
means that their weight and volume is proportional to the cube of
the sensor dimensions; so if you double your sensor size, your lens
will weigh eight times as much (if you just scale up the design,
which you usually won't for that precise reason).
Interesting I didn't know that factoid before.
It's not a "factoid," it's sixth-grade geometry.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
 
Anyway, R1 ain't a DSLR and of course it ought to have live
readings from the display, as all other compacts do. I dont get
what he meant by that....offering megapixels to implement live view
:S
It's not clear, but I suspect "he" be me. It takes real estate to implement live view. The sensor in the Nikon D2X is incapable of doing it. There are SEPARATE outputs for the live view and the full resolution data. The Sony Engineers shrunk the sensor size to give room for the live view circuitry. Do you understand now?

BTW, the R1 ain't no "compact"... ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
 
American goods are designed by lawyers, British by accountants and
Russian by engineers. I feel sorry for what will happen to Russian
engineers.

Regards, David
Actually I always believed that Russian goods are designed by
politicians!
No, that's the American goods. Politicians = Lawyers! ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
 
Anyway, R1 ain't a DSLR and of course it ought to have live
readings from the display, as all other compacts do. I dont get
what he meant by that....offering megapixels to implement live view
:S
It's not clear, but I suspect "he" be me. It takes real estate to
implement live view. The sensor in the Nikon D2X is incapable of
doing it. There are SEPARATE outputs for the live view and the full
resolution data. The Sony Engineers shrunk the sensor size to give
room for the live view circuitry. Do you understand now?

BTW, the R1 ain't no "compact"... ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
Yeah, I thought that might be the case....the sensor ain't made for it.

Sure its a compact, as in "not DSLR", but you are right its not really compact in size :D
 
Yup. In particular, expect, say, a 24-70 (equiv.) to be a good deal
bigger than, say, a 35-105 (equiv), even though both have similar
aperture ranges and zoom ratios (roughly 3x).
This statement is only correct if the sensor size attached to each
lens is different. Given sensors or the same size the 35-105 would
be the larger lens especially to have the same f value.
Nope, it wouldn't. The reason is that 24 mm requires a pretty
complex reverse-telephoto lens design, and a large front element to
prevent vignetting, while 35 mm can be done with a much simpler
design. So if all else (optical quality, brightness) was equal, the
24-70 would be the bigger lens.
Interesting point I hadn't considered that (and I had my head around compacts). Would this only be true of sensor/film sizes that do not allow for really small focal lengths? As far as compact cameras are concerned it seems they have no issue making smaller lenses with tiny focal lengths? I would guess this is becuase the tiny sesnor and tiny focal length projects fine without fancy engineering, as well as not requiring space for a mirror etc. Is this correct?
It is probably a big mistake to use "equivelent" focal lengths to
explain this topic. The question was about the relationship of lens
speed to the size of a lens and why none of it makes sense. Your
statment above while illustrating why its confusing with digital
cameras and does little to explain why. Sorry Just my opinion.
You're clearly right, since you appear not to have understood what
I said.
Well it helps to explain why and provide context?
Sensor size does
matter a quite a lot: lenses are three-dimensional objects, which
means that their weight and volume is proportional to the cube of
the sensor dimensions; so if you double your sensor size, your lens
will weigh eight times as much (if you just scale up the design,
which you usually won't for that precise reason).
Interesting I didn't know that factoid before.
It's not a "factoid," it's sixth-grade geometry.
I think this is a nasty stab either at me or my countries education system. When I was in sixth grade this certainly wasn't covered in math. We may have covered a little geometry maybee cubes (its been 25 years). Certainly not how cubes apply to the relationship between camera lens size and weight and sesnor/film size?

Thanks for setting me to rights.
 
Your question has gotten many good answers, but the effect of lens
speed is really complicated by zoom technology and design.
Example of great design is the Sony F717 Zeiss Vario-Sonnar 38mm -
190mm, f2.0-2.4.
Except that it's actually 10mm-48mm

--
Leonard Migliore
 
james arnold 71 wrote:
[snip]
Interesting point I hadn't considered that (and I had my head
around compacts). Would this only be true of sensor/film sizes that
do not allow for really small focal lengths?
Nope, it applies to sensor size; the field of view is the determining factor, not the focal length. If one day they'll come up with sensors that can handle off-axis light well, this limitation will be greatly reduced -- you can use symmetrical designs like on rangefinder lenses: improved aberration correction and smaller size at the cost of more vignetting.
As far as compact
cameras are concerned it seems they have no issue making smaller
lenses with tiny focal lengths? I would guess this is becuase the
tiny sesnor and tiny focal length projects fine without fancy
engineering, as well as not requiring space for a mirror etc. Is
this correct?
Lens designs scale up and down just fine. You can take, say, a 24-70/2.8L (designed for full-frame film), and scale it down by a factor of four, and you'll get a 6-18/2.8 that'll weigh about 30 grams, cost tens of dollars to make, and work on a 2/3" sensor. It's a lot easier and cheaper to make lenses that project smaller image circles.

[snip]

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
My RSS feed: [ http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/rss/whatsnew.xml ]
My flickr page: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/primejunta/ ]
 
Anyway, R1 ain't a DSLR and of course it ought to have live
readings from the display, as all other compacts do. I dont get
what he meant by that....offering megapixels to implement live view
:S
It's not clear, but I suspect "he" be me. It takes real estate to
implement live view. The sensor in the Nikon D2X is incapable of
doing it. There are SEPARATE outputs for the live view and the full
resolution data. The Sony Engineers shrunk the sensor size to give
room for the live view circuitry. Do you understand now?

BTW, the R1 ain't no "compact"... ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
Yeah, I thought that might be the case....the sensor ain't made for
it.
It is NOW! :-)
Sure its a compact, as in "not DSLR", but you are right its not
really compact in size :D
A better descriptive term is "bridge". A "compact" is something you can put in your pocket or purse. ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
 
I dont really see the correlation between slow/fast lenses and
their sizes.

You can see a large 12x zoom camera having incredibly fast optics,
and then comes some other model with only 3x zoom and a huge lens
and you think "that must be a fast lens" and it goes from F2.8-F4.5
or something like that typically.
It depends on the sensor size. The Fujifilm FinePix S6500
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0607/06071302fujifilms6500fd.asp

has a sensor which is the same size as the Fujifilm FinePix F30 (1/1.7" Type CCD)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06021403fujif30.asp

and both are even bigger than the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ30 (1/1.8" = 7.18 x 5.32 mm)
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Panasonic/panasonic_dmcfz30.asp

for other cameras see also following table:
http://static.flickr.com/47/174033526_4e76c66733_o.gif

For a APSC or full frame sized sensor f2.8 is fast but for a compact camera it is actually slow.

You need a bigger lens for bigger sensors and lens size is growing proportional with the power of 3.

Regards

Wolfgang
 

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