Yes, I'm saying that in the 'make believe situation' the photographer by not simply waving his arms at the bird would have, 'in effect', willingly partnered himself with the bird in the 'killing' of the child and I would consider it murder by two parties instead of just one. I take that back. The bird is iinnocent. It's only doing what is natural and what it was created to do.
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Photographers' ethics?
- Thread starter Creeper219654
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RomanJohnston
Forum Pro
I am litterally doumbfounded how many people just give a kneejerk reaction to the OP and never read to understand what truly happend.....to the girl in the photo...OR the photographer in question.
Some have even advocated killing the photographer.
Interesting reactions from members of what we would call an advanced society.
I think Albert Einstin got it right when he said (a non exact quote) "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."
From our comfey armchairs of life that our advanced technology affords us....some of us pass judgment without even investigating the facts....based on some value they have been tought.
Basic respect of humanity is not only for those that are helpless like the child....but in understanding the true facts before we bludgeon somone to death....for what we THINK is happening. Its why many societys have a court system....and at least in the US....we are innocent till proven guilty....an luxury not afforded to all societys.
I have to say....thanks to the OP...this is an enlightening discussion...if not for the responses...but what the responses mean.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
Some have even advocated killing the photographer.
Interesting reactions from members of what we would call an advanced society.
I think Albert Einstin got it right when he said (a non exact quote) "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."
From our comfey armchairs of life that our advanced technology affords us....some of us pass judgment without even investigating the facts....based on some value they have been tought.
Basic respect of humanity is not only for those that are helpless like the child....but in understanding the true facts before we bludgeon somone to death....for what we THINK is happening. Its why many societys have a court system....and at least in the US....we are innocent till proven guilty....an luxury not afforded to all societys.
I have to say....thanks to the OP...this is an enlightening discussion...if not for the responses...but what the responses mean.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
RomanJohnston
Forum Pro
then the person not doing anything...
For your acts are consious....and malicious...and pre-meditated.
In that way....I find you much more dangerous to society than the photographer in question in your hypothisis. I think the court systems in most evolved societys would back me up on this.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
For your acts are consious....and malicious...and pre-meditated.
In that way....I find you much more dangerous to society than the photographer in question in your hypothisis. I think the court systems in most evolved societys would back me up on this.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
D
DEJ
Guest
bikinchris
Forum Pro
I would also like to ask of all those who condemn the photographer (with some using very strong words BTW) how many of those have even lifted a finger to help the world's starving and persecuted children and adults?
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Chris, Broussard, LA
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Chris, Broussard, LA
Greg Zillgitt
Senior Member
Everyone on this side of the argument makes the point that the girl walked away after the picture was taken. That may be so, but why was the photographer so wracked with guilt about her? Was it just irrationality brought on by depression and drug abuse? Or was there something more causing his guilt? Clearly the Wikepedia article leaves a lot of holes in the story, but his torment about the girl makes me wonder about what wasn't told.
--
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi
D
DEJ
Guest
While there may be some truth in parts of his documentary he was certainly not above distorting many a truth with in the same documentary.
His political motives have no ethical boundaries IMO.
Since I don't know much about the subject of the OP I will give the subject the benefit of not placing him in the class of a M. Moore.
Darrell
RomanJohnston
Forum Pro
I would place good money on the fact that it wasnt this isolated incident ...but ALL he whitnessed while recording such devistation that sat with him till he made that choice.
But you are right....many holes in the story.
Roman
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
But you are right....many holes in the story.
Roman
--Everyone on this side of the argument makes the point that the girl
walked away after the picture was taken. That may be so, but why
was the photographer so wracked with guilt about her? Was it just
irrationality brought on by depression and drug abuse? Or was there
something more causing his guilt? Clearly the Wikepedia article
leaves a lot of holes in the story, but his torment about the girl
makes me wonder about what wasn't told.
--
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
CIASpook
Veteran Member
A photographer needs to be a PERSON before he is a photographer. If someone was there withOUT a camera and did nothing, what would we think of them?
A photographer should never use their camera as an excuse to NOT do something. If a photographer was attacked, would he not put the camera down to defend themself? If the photographer was hungry, would he not put the camera down to eat? If a photographer wanted to have sex with their spouse, would they not...ok, bad example. But you still get my point. Having a camera is not an excuse for inaction.
With all that out, I am not questioning the photographer's ethics in taking the photo in question. There is a context to everything and I don't know the context of this photo. Maybe there were 20 children just like this all sitting there starving. Can he help all of them? Can he do anything worthwhile why he is there? I don't know. Is he wrong for taking the photo? From what others have said, this photo may have caused a lot of people to give to whatever cause there is that can help this child or at least other children in similar plights. That alone makes the photo worth it.
And finally, for those that said they would do something to the photographer for not helping...let me end with this question. Do you always involve yourself to help others that are in need? You've seen this photo. What have you done to help? If you see a man a woman in the street and the man strikes that woman, how many of you will stand up for that woman? Now think about that high horse you're riding. Are you worthy of it?
http://www.pbase.com/DigitalCMH
A photographer should never use their camera as an excuse to NOT do something. If a photographer was attacked, would he not put the camera down to defend themself? If the photographer was hungry, would he not put the camera down to eat? If a photographer wanted to have sex with their spouse, would they not...ok, bad example. But you still get my point. Having a camera is not an excuse for inaction.
With all that out, I am not questioning the photographer's ethics in taking the photo in question. There is a context to everything and I don't know the context of this photo. Maybe there were 20 children just like this all sitting there starving. Can he help all of them? Can he do anything worthwhile why he is there? I don't know. Is he wrong for taking the photo? From what others have said, this photo may have caused a lot of people to give to whatever cause there is that can help this child or at least other children in similar plights. That alone makes the photo worth it.
And finally, for those that said they would do something to the photographer for not helping...let me end with this question. Do you always involve yourself to help others that are in need? You've seen this photo. What have you done to help? If you see a man a woman in the street and the man strikes that woman, how many of you will stand up for that woman? Now think about that high horse you're riding. Are you worthy of it?
--
http://www.pbase.com/DigitalCMH
AAK
Forum Pro
Simple. I do whatever I can do to help ameliorate the suffering of children (and adults) around the world. Actually, I probably do more than I should for my own well-being, but I simply cannot stand the neglect of this world's less fortunate and suffering. Just the way I was raised.
I am angry because of 40 million people are dying of Aids who are being neglected because they are black, they live in Africa, and don't use the appropriate birth control that some in this nation have decreed is the only morally acceptable one.
I am angry because I can't even imagine the loss of humanity that allows anyone to allow any child to lie face-down in the dirt without lifting a hand.
I don't even say "don't take the picture". Take the picture, then run, don't walk, to help that child.
I am angry because of all the "pragmatic" reasons to which we have abandoned our humanity.
Sorry, I shouldn't write about this. It makes me so angry.
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
AAK
Forum Pro
Of course, the answer is not triage.
It is more resources.
Resources that would be there in a caring world.
If that were a middle-class white child would the choice have been the same?
I doubt it.
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
It is more resources.
Resources that would be there in a caring world.
If that were a middle-class white child would the choice have been the same?
I doubt it.
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
AAK
Forum Pro
I agree completely.
In another post I suggested: take the picture, then run to help the child.
Can you cure poverty, war? No.
Can you lift one child's face out of the dirt?
How can you not?
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
In another post I suggested: take the picture, then run to help the child.
Can you cure poverty, war? No.
Can you lift one child's face out of the dirt?
How can you not?
--A photographer should never use their camera as an excuse to NOT do
something. If a photographer was attacked, would he not put the
camera down to defend themself? If the photographer was hungry,
would he not put the camera down to eat? If a photographer wanted
to have sex with their spouse, would they not...ok, bad example.
But you still get my point. Having a camera is not an excuse for
inaction.
With all that out, I am not questioning the photographer's ethics
in taking the photo in question. There is a context to everything
and I don't know the context of this photo. Maybe there were 20
children just like this all sitting there starving. Can he help
all of them? Can he do anything worthwhile why he is there? I
don't know. Is he wrong for taking the photo? From what others
have said, this photo may have caused a lot of people to give to
whatever cause there is that can help this child or at least other
children in similar plights. That alone makes the photo worth it.
And finally, for those that said they would do something to the
photographer for not helping...let me end with this question. Do
you always involve yourself to help others that are in need?
You've seen this photo. What have you done to help? If you see a
man a woman in the street and the man strikes that woman, how many
of you will stand up for that woman? Now think about that high
horse you're riding. Are you worthy of it?
--
http://www.pbase.com/DigitalCMH
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of the H-Series White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
RomanJohnston
Forum Pro
I too doubt it...not because of the lack of money....or poorness of the child....but the risk of disease and protocall such environments make manditory or the people helping die off as fast as those needing help.
Diffrent environment...diffrent rules.....and survival is amungst the top prioritys of the people helping ....or the help just dies with the rest of the desolation in the area.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
RomanJohnston
Forum Pro
At the risk of oversimplifying this.....there is a diffrent protocall in places like this.
Woudl you be so eager to rush over and help the child if the child was ill with a deadly and highly contageous disease?
There is more (potentially) at stake here than meets the eye.
Now....granted...if the area and medical advice (which I would be armed with before detering such an area) said such actions would be relitivly save....I just like you would brave it....
But I bet the instructions were more to the tune of leave the people alone (or help them at your own risk) for JUST that reason.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
Woudl you be so eager to rush over and help the child if the child was ill with a deadly and highly contageous disease?
There is more (potentially) at stake here than meets the eye.
Now....granted...if the area and medical advice (which I would be armed with before detering such an area) said such actions would be relitivly save....I just like you would brave it....
But I bet the instructions were more to the tune of leave the people alone (or help them at your own risk) for JUST that reason.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
Mario
Senior Member
of others. If we are so righteous, why don't we (and judging by the equipment in profiles of each and every one of us, we're all well off) do something right now and save a life by donating $20 for starving children?
Who is with me?
--
Mario
http://digitalphotographyart.blogspot.com/
http://www.pbase.com/mario_grgic/
Who is with me?
--
Mario
http://digitalphotographyart.blogspot.com/
http://www.pbase.com/mario_grgic/
RomanJohnston
Forum Pro
Im not in judgment.....and agree. Will do so tonight when I get home.
Good call.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
Good call.
Roman
--
Schrodinger's cat is alive...no...dead...no...alive.....no, wait....
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
PismoBeach
Senior Member
Everyone should read the wikipedia before commenting. The man saw more in one lifetime than any of us have. It probably didn't help that people called him heartless even though the photo broght so much aid.
Everyone on this side of the argument makes the point that the girl
walked away after the picture was taken. That may be so, but why
was the photographer so wracked with guilt about her? Was it just
irrationality brought on by depression and drug abuse? Or was there
something more causing his guilt? Clearly the Wikepedia article
leaves a lot of holes in the story, but his torment about the girl
makes me wonder about what wasn't told.
--
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi
You keep repeating the whole disease thing.
If you are in that part of the world you are interacting with people and animals that are just as likely to give you a disease as that child.
And your probably vaccinated.
--
-------------------------------
It burns when I pee
-------------------------------
http://photography.jacob-alexander.com
http://design.jacob-alexander.com
http://www.battlefarm.com
If you are in that part of the world you are interacting with people and animals that are just as likely to give you a disease as that child.
And your probably vaccinated.
--
-------------------------------
It burns when I pee
-------------------------------
http://photography.jacob-alexander.com
http://design.jacob-alexander.com
http://www.battlefarm.com
PismoBeach
Senior Member
The man probably saved thousands with that photo and all he got was condemnation from self righteous types who were not there.
Cerny Most
Member
[The true tragedy in this thread is how many pictures have not been taken while we all debate this issue.] 
You shouldn't definitively comment on this picture and the photographer's morals/intentions unless you understand the context in which it was taken.
Remember - this is NOT one child in your neighborhood, but several thousand in an unsecured 3rd world disaster area.
This is NOT a hungry child, this child is chronically malnourished, and in the end stages of starvation. Did you know you could kill her with a protein bar? Did you know there is such a thing as the 'refeeding syndrome' and that it is life threatening? This child needs medical experts. A well intentioned person ignorant to the real situation could KILL her. This is a medical emergency, so yes - it requires triage. Primum non nocere.
I've also witnessed what happens in a crowd of excited victims when they feel one member is being treated differently - you can cause a riot, and make the situation much worse. We don't know what the security situation was for the photographer or who was standing outside the frame. Might have influenced what he was allowed to do.
One hungry child in your neighborhood - feed her!! Not even a question, however, this is NOT a picture of a hungry child in your neighborhood. Several thousand starving children - leave it to the medical/security experts. Your well intentioned efforts will likely cause more harm than good.
[As an aside, it saddens me that race (as a cause for inaction) entered into this discussion - although I am not at all surprised - history is on the side of humanity, because there WAS an outpouring of generosity for this famine even though the child is black. We know that this was in part due to this photographer making sure his work got printed. Examine your own biases when you so quickly assume they are present in others.]
I'm going take a few pictures.
Cheers
Cerny
You shouldn't definitively comment on this picture and the photographer's morals/intentions unless you understand the context in which it was taken.
Remember - this is NOT one child in your neighborhood, but several thousand in an unsecured 3rd world disaster area.
This is NOT a hungry child, this child is chronically malnourished, and in the end stages of starvation. Did you know you could kill her with a protein bar? Did you know there is such a thing as the 'refeeding syndrome' and that it is life threatening? This child needs medical experts. A well intentioned person ignorant to the real situation could KILL her. This is a medical emergency, so yes - it requires triage. Primum non nocere.
I've also witnessed what happens in a crowd of excited victims when they feel one member is being treated differently - you can cause a riot, and make the situation much worse. We don't know what the security situation was for the photographer or who was standing outside the frame. Might have influenced what he was allowed to do.
One hungry child in your neighborhood - feed her!! Not even a question, however, this is NOT a picture of a hungry child in your neighborhood. Several thousand starving children - leave it to the medical/security experts. Your well intentioned efforts will likely cause more harm than good.
[As an aside, it saddens me that race (as a cause for inaction) entered into this discussion - although I am not at all surprised - history is on the side of humanity, because there WAS an outpouring of generosity for this famine even though the child is black. We know that this was in part due to this photographer making sure his work got printed. Examine your own biases when you so quickly assume they are present in others.]
I'm going take a few pictures.
Cheers
Cerny
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