Canon vs. Nikon ergonomics

Leos said:

foldedpath said:

2) I frequently use the camera with AF lock decoupled from the
shutter release. The AE-L/AF-L button on the D70s is near the
viewfinder, isolated from any other button, and it falls right
under my thumb with a normal grip on the camera. The AE/AF button
on the 5D is located more outboard on the body, it's tiny, and it
sits right next to an identical button.

Click to expand...

The location doesnt bother me, however it bothers me plenty that
when configured for AF (which I prefer for many reasons) ... where
are the AE lock ? On the shutter release! That doesnt cut it, Im
sorry. D200 has seperate button for AE lock and in combination with
a tighter spot meter this really makes up for a feature practically
missing on any Canon.
Perhaps the way to work around this would be to start using manual
in combination with spot meter.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I noticed that too. That's gotta be tough if you're used to having it on a Nikon.

Full manual works great, if you're not having to shoot quickly with changing lighting or unpredictable subjects. I try to "expose to the right," working off the histogram, and then pull back highllights in ACR during post-processing. It's faster to punch in a quick plus or minus EV compensation directly, using shutter speed or aperture setting, than it is to futz with setting an EV compensation in the meter (unless you're pegged at the limit for shutter or aperture).

And if you're like me, there's a 50% chance I'll forget that I've dialled in that EV compensation on the next setup.

Adi Khindaria said:

I learnt the
hard way after taking a bunch of early morning shots at iso 1600
set previous night for indoor shooting.

Click to expand...

To shoot all morning and without noticing that the exposure time is too short or the aperture is too small indicates that you don't have a slightest idea about setting a correct exposure.

tony field said:

The second problem is that Canon has only two control surfaces
(front wheel for index finger and back dial for thumb) whereas the
Nikon has three surfaces (front wheel for index finger, back wheel
for thumb and dial for thumb).

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that more control surfaces is better. (Also, you may be forgetting the Canon joystick.)

tony field said:

The Nikon assigns aperture control to the front wheel and shutter
speed to the back wheel (or optionally reversed). This makes it
easy to know which control to use when setting exposure - and is
consistently implemented for AV, TV and Manual modes.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

But this would be completely fixed in Canon by having the control wheels be assignable so that one could set the index finger control to be aperture in Av and manual modes and compensation in Tv. It then adjusts the aperture in all three modes, and the rear dial adjusts shutter speed in all three modes.

tony field said:

The Canon assigns aperture to the front wheel in AV mode and if you
are in TV mode it also assigns shutter setting to the front wheel.
In manual mode, it assigns shutter speed to the front wheel and
aperture to the back dial. The controls work "differently"
depending upon the mode. Since it is reasonable to switch between
Av, Tv and Manual exposure in one shooting session, you now can
easily make mistakes when attempting to set basic camera exposure
control.

Another problem with the back dial is that it is easily bumped.
Canon gets around this by having a "lock" feature to disable the
back dial - which is royally difficult to play with in manual
exposure mode. It is also a bit of a pain when attempting to use
exposure compensation. Nikon does not have these problems or the
problems are far less severe because of the interface design.

Click to expand...

This one's a "learn to live with it" sort of thing. (Note that it's worse if you are left eye dominant. Ouch.) At least in Av mode, it's a really good idea to check the exposure compensation all the time, since leaving it set after taking a shot is something I doubt I'm the only one who does.

Another complaint: The "DRIVE-ISO" setting (and other top panel setting) markings are REVERSED ! That is, "DRIVE" is closer to the dial that changes ISO, and "ISO" is closer to the dial that changes the drive mode.

Still, the Canon UI would be fine if the control dials were assignable as described above (and the markings were fixed).

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

PismoBeach said:

The D200, D2h and d2x are very deceptive at first. Sure it conforms
to your hand at first. But if you shoot and grip it hard, after a
while you will find the angles of the grip are too sharp and
probably will cramp your hand up like mine does. After shooting
macro shots with my D200, there has not been a time afterward where
my hand felt ok. I don't have that issue with the 5D and 1D mark 2
N since the grips actually keep your grip from pinching and caving
in.

Click to expand...

People confuse ergonomics with software user interface. The things that always bugged me about the ergonomics of even the better Nikons were the angular surfaces on the grip and the shutter release in the wrong place. Both caused my hand to hurt after using the camera for just a few minutes. I can hold my 20D or 5D for hours without hand strain!

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

David J. Littleboy said:

Still, the Canon UI would be fine if the control dials were
assignable as described above (and the markings were fixed).

Click to expand...

Agree! However the point is that Nikon usually does things properly and Canon has these "UI (that) would be fine if they would make a change". Canon simply has NOT figured out how to make the interface work well. The 1D-IIn can reassign functions and directions - other camreras cannot.

Canon has (almost) enough buttons and features to do things well - they simply have not figured out the details. Nikon does a better job.
--
tony
http://www.tphoto.ca

ljfinger said:

People confuse ergonomics with software user interface.

Click to expand...

When push comes to shove, the "software user interface" is equivalent logically (and physically) to "buttons, bumps, shape and things". They are both "ergonomics". Navigation of buttons is mentally equivalent to navigation of menu structures. In addition, the menu and button mechanisms are so interrelated that one cannot be practically separated from the other. Buttons are often a simple way of getting at a menu setting.
--
tony
http://www.tphoto.ca

tony field said:

ljfinger said:

People confuse ergonomics with software user interface.

Click to expand...

When push comes to shove, the "software user interface" is
equivalent logically (and physically) to "buttons, bumps, shape and
things". They are both "ergonomics".

Click to expand...

I guess when I think of "ergonomics" I'm really thinking of "physical ergonomics." From Wikipedia:

"Physical ergonomics deals with the human body's responses to physical and physiological loads. Relevant topics include manual materials handling, workstation layout, job demands, and risk factors such as repetition, vibration, force and awkward/static posture as they relate to musculoskeletal disorders (see repetitive strain injury)."

What I call "software user interface" they call "Cognitive ergonomics".

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

When I take picture I get pretty serious and that means gripping the camera for all it's worth. The second thing that bugs me is the Nikon leatherette peels off. 2 D1H, D2H, 17-35mm 2.8, 80-200mm 2.8 and I am not the only one it has happened to, several colleagues. It isn't very comfortable to put you hand on a sliding grip or bare spot with glue on it.

ljfinger said:

PismoBeach said:

The D200, D2h and d2x are very deceptive at first. Sure it conforms
to your hand at first. But if you shoot and grip it hard, after a
while you will find the angles of the grip are too sharp and
probably will cramp your hand up like mine does. After shooting
macro shots with my D200, there has not been a time afterward where
my hand felt ok. I don't have that issue with the 5D and 1D mark 2
N since the grips actually keep your grip from pinching and caving
in.

Click to expand...

People confuse ergonomics with software user interface. The things
that always bugged me about the ergonomics of even the better
Nikons were the angular surfaces on the grip and the shutter
release in the wrong place. Both caused my hand to hurt after
using the camera for just a few minutes. I can hold my 20D or 5D
for hours without hand strain!

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

Click to expand...

ljfinger said:

What I call "software user interface" they call "Cognitive
ergonomics".

Click to expand...

Well, if physical ergo is in question, the only difference between the cameras is how it feels in your hand. I prefer some Canon bodies to Nikon and some Nikon bodies to Canon - depends upon which specific models. In the final analysis, you will trivially adapt to most current DSLR physical ergonomics since all controls are reasonably placed in a physical context. I cannot think of a camera with "bad buttons and/or bad shape".

In other words, because the camera is a "hand held device", how it fits YOU is the important thing. However, IMO, that is only a first blush aproximation to how "nice" is the camera to use. That is only a small first approximation to the operation of the camera.
--
tony
http://www.tphoto.ca

tony field said:

In the final analysis, you will trivially adapt
to most current DSLR physical ergonomics since all controls are
reasonably placed in a physical context. I cannot think of a
camera with "bad buttons and/or bad shape".

Click to expand...

I have used Nikon's on two occasions that caused me pain. I have a Rebel XT at work that I use all the time and I've never adapted to that horrible body (worse than any Nikon for me). The 5D, 10D and 20D all fit just right, the Nikons are all horrible (the D50 being easily the worst) and the 1-series is horrible as well. I don't believe at all that adapting your hand to a body design that doesn't fit is trivial at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite of what the ergonomics people to do.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

In my mind we are talking two issues.

1)Interface - Nikon is superior here on the "Pro" side. The 1D series is a disgrace with no logical explanation. I have the 1dMKII and had the 1D. Have had the D2X, D1H, D1, D70, D1X and D2H.

The D30, 10D and 20D are all better interfacewise when compared to the 1D series.

2) Feel - I prefer the Nikon - but it is not a huge difference.

Combo of the two is the terrible way Canon has users adjust focus points - wow - what a pain. It has been a mess since the D30 and has not changed.

The bottom line, either of the two work once you get them figured out.

tony field said:

The Nikon assigns aperture control to the front wheel and shutter
speed to the back wheel (or optionally reversed). This makes it
easy to know which control to use when setting exposure - and is
consistently implemented for AV, TV and Manual modes.

Click to expand...

As a long term Nikon user with little Canon experience, I'll just allow myself one comment.

Since I shoot mostly in A mode for my landscape work, the possibility to configure the Nikon so that exposure compensation can be applied by rotating the rear wheel only is a life saver. You don't even have to push on a button anywhere, just rotating the wheel is enouh.

I tried the 5D a few times, and it took me ages to figure out how an exposure compensation can be applied. This really came as a surprise. Why is such an important function so difficult to access???

This being said, I am sure that you can get used to this, but it made me wonder whether the guys designing these bodies are photographers themselves.

There is no right or wrong, but one thing that I noticed when I started to use the Hassy H1 is that they virtually copied the Nikon interface. Same wheels and same usage.

It wouldn't surprise me much if Canon went for such an interface as well in their (anticipated) new 2D series. It just makes more sense.

Regards,
Bernard

Bernard Languillier said:

I tried the 5D a few times, and it took me ages to figure out how
an exposure compensation can be applied. This really came as a
surprise. Why is such an important function so difficult to
access???

Click to expand...

Difficult to access? It's so easy that some people complained of hitting it by accident thereby causing Canon to put a lock switch so you can lock it out. In what way did you find EC on the 5D to be difficult to apply (just turn the back wheel with your thumb)?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

ljfinger said:

Difficult to access? It's so easy that some people complained of
hitting it by accident thereby causing Canon to put a lock switch
so you can lock it out. In what way did you find EC on the 5D to
be difficult to apply (just turn the back wheel with your thumb)?

Click to expand...

Lee,

It might be my lack of knowledge of the 5D, but I was under the impression that you first have to modify the position of the on/off switch, right?

I find that switch difficult to locate/access when you are looking through the viewfinder.

Thanks for correcting me if I am wrong.

Regards,
Bernard

thx1138 said:

When I moved from a Ricoh camera to an EOS 5 way back, I recall
thatb within a few days the EOS system was second nature. There's
not much too them and the QCD makes life so simple. Everything
looks awkward until you try it. I'll bet I could get used to the
Nikon layout just as quickly. using a camera for an hour is not a
fair test of ergonomics. What hurts is if you have to continually
swap between two totally different layouts, then it can become
frustrating. It's like my two cars. The indicators and wiper
controls are reversed; one is Australian one is German. Very
annoying when you drive them in the same day, but if you drive each
one for a day then it's not an issue at all.

Click to expand...

Very true. Even after the swap was said and done we both had to admit the other camera was well-thought out, but just quite foreign in layout. It was more of just a "let's see what happens" thing than actually trying to convince ourselves that either camera was better or worse.

I liken all these debates to the similar war of words that has gone on for decades between car nuts, that of Chevy vs. Ford in terms of the hot-rodder's perspective. I'll politely decline to express my loyalties in that area, we don't need still another debate..!!!

Mig said:

In my mind we are talking two issues.

1)Interface - Nikon is superior here on the "Pro" side. The 1D
series is a disgrace with no logical explanation. I have the
1dMKII and had the 1D. Have had the D2X, D1H, D1, D70, D1X and D2H.

The D30, 10D and 20D are all better interfacewise when compared to
the 1D series.

2) Feel - I prefer the Nikon - but it is not a huge difference.

Combo of the two is the terrible way Canon has users adjust focus
points - wow - what a pain. It has been a mess since the D30 and
has not changed.

The bottom line, either of the two work once you get them figured out.

Click to expand...

Wow, having come from the D60/10D/20D series to a pair of 1D2's I really can't see how someone could make that statement.

For all the whining people do about the three buttons on the top of the 1D series bodies, think about it. they control 7 functions between individual presses or pairs of buttons. The argument someone made about setting your metering mode instead of ISO or drive because you didn't fully press both buttons is just silly. Don't you look at the top panel LCD when you're doing this to make sure you've changed what you really want to?

Sorry, but aside from Canon's reluctance to put an easier to use mirror lockup function in any of its DSLR's I can't find any fault, especially with the 1D series controls, focus point selection included.

But, to each their own. We are talking about personal preferences here and no matter how many thousand posts are written about this subject there will always be disagreement and dislike of one set of features or controls or the other.

I will mention again that I found it quite interesting that a working pro newspaper photog who was handed all new Canon gear after having shot with Nikon for years was basically not concerned about it at all. To him either camera was simply a tool to do his job, and he made it his point to learn how to use the tool properly and that was that. His images are still every bit as good and compelling as they were before, if I hadn't run into him with all his Canon gear recently I never would have noticed the difference, and I think in the end that's what matters, the image.

Leos said:

I think one of the main reasons to choose the 5D over the 1Ds/1Ds
mk2 would be to get rid of the vertical grip. The 5D was
"optimized" to be gripless , the 1 series and Nikon D2 series to
have a grip.

Click to expand...

Gripless is great until you start getting big glass and then the balance is much nicer on a 1 series than 20D/30D/5D body. Otherwise I like them both and sometimes it's actually nice to use a featherweight camera like the 20D with a featherweight lens like a 50 f/1.4.

Bernard Languillier said:

ljfinger said:

Difficult to access? It's so easy that some people complained of
hitting it by accident thereby causing Canon to put a lock switch
so you can lock it out. In what way did you find EC on the 5D to
be difficult to apply (just turn the back wheel with your thumb)?

Click to expand...

Lee,

It might be my lack of knowledge of the 5D, but I was under the
impression that you first have to modify the position of the on/off
switch, right?

I find that switch difficult to locate/access when you are looking
through the viewfinder.

Thanks for correcting me if I am wrong.

Regards,
Bernard

Click to expand...

Just turn the on/off switch to the second point not the first and the rear dial is active all the time. I can change exposure compensation without ever removing my eye from the VF. There's enough resistance in the wheel I've not accidentally changed the setting, but you can lock the wheel with the on/off switch if you are paranoid.

tony field said:

There are two distinct problems with Canon design. First is that
the 1D-series and 5D/30D designs are dramatically different. It
makes it very difficult to shoot a 1D as a primary camera with a
5D/30D and have to make many changes to the camera while you shoot
(such as ISO, white balance, AF mode, drive, etc). Buttons and
wheels, although similar labels, have very different ways of
operation - including the fact that some times controls rotate left
on the 1D and the same operation is done with a right rotation on
the 5D. The 30D/5D is closer to the Nikon style of operating than
it is to the 1D-series.

Click to expand...

True, but then again they were designed for totally different markets and photographers. I sometimes think different design teams must have worked out those details between the two platforms.

tony field said:

The second problem is that Canon has only two control surfaces
(front wheel for index finger and back dial for thumb) whereas the
Nikon has three surfaces (front wheel for index finger, back wheel
for thumb and dial for thumb).

Click to expand...

More isn't always necessarily better. It's just more things to have to remember what they do

tony field said:

The Nikon assigns aperture control to the front wheel and shutter
speed to the back wheel (or optionally reversed). This makes it
easy to know which control to use when setting exposure - and is
consistently implemented for AV, TV and Manual modes.

Specific to the 1D-series, the silly need to use multiple fingers
to set camera operations such as ISO, drive mode, etc is rather
silly and cumbersome when you are in a rush. It is even awkward to
when you think you are setting ISO with two buttons pressed
however, since you may not have actually pressed both buttons
fully, you might accidentally be setting you AF mode or choosing
spot/average metering.

Click to expand...

I cannot disagree more with you there. I'm immensely impressed at how Canon made certain important (read: things you wouldn't want accidentally changed) functions require a two-button press.

And don't you at least look at the top LCD when you're making those changes? You would know in an instant if you'd made a mistake.

Personally I've never had that be an issue, the buttons press fairly easily, you just have to do it right. It's called knowing your equipment. Heck, they're even quite plainly marked. The first time I ever picked up a 1D series I could figure all of them out without ever touching the manual.

thx1138 said:

Just turn the on/off switch to the second point not the first and
the rear dial is active all the time. I can change exposure
compensation without ever removing my eye from the VF. There's
enough resistance in the wheel I've not accidentally changed the
setting, but you can lock the wheel with the on/off switch if you
are paranoid.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation.

Regards,
Bernard