Nikon finally a change of heart ? Full Frame Nikon is on the table ?

Well, I have a heavy investment in Nikon lenses too. I've been with
Nikon since the Nikon F days, with clip-on Selenium cell external
meters. When I moved into DSLR's recently from film, I really
tried... I gave Nikon my best shot. I skimped on the camera, buying
a D70s so I could get a few decent lenses (12-24 DX, 17-55 DX,
10.5mm DX fisheye), along with the 60mm Micro and other older Nikon
glass I have. I figured the next step would be a D2X, if the whole
digital thing was falling into place.

But no dice. After a year of fooling around with a D70s (talk about
a horrible viewfinder!), and struggling with the crop sensor's
quirks, I finally broke down and bought a Canon 5D and a couple of
starter lenses (35mm f/1.4L and 100mm f/2.8 macro).

My Nikon lens investment? Well, part of that investment is fast
primes and shift lenses (28mm PC) designed for "full format" film.
Nikon has ignored this market completely. My 28mm shift lens is
gathering dust in the closet, because it's too long (on crop
sensor) to be useful for architectural work. That's what finally
made me buy a Canon... no direction from Nikon on their roadmap,
and no DX equivalents to the fast prime wideangles and specialty
wideangles like shift lenses that I need.

Right now I feel like the last Nikon guy who shoots architecture
(among other things), who finally woke up, smacked their head, and
realized I'm in the wrong system. If Nikon had been more
forthcoming in their roadmap... if they had told me either... A)
We're DEFINITELY working on FF sensor, and it's coming SOON, or B)
We're going to replace the lenses we bjorked by going to crop
sensor, like the 28mm PC, and the fast wideangle primes.... I
wouldn't have jumped ship to Canon.

This is exactly the reason why it's not necessarily a good thing to
stay tight-lipped about their roadmap. The company seems to be
adrift. They may have clear direction internally, but it doesn't
look like that OUTSIDE the company... and that's the problem.
I second most of the observations and conclusions above. Nikon has simply abandoned the architectural photographer so far. It makes me steaming mad that I do not have a good wide angle PC / TS lens available for the DX format. I am too an old timer Nikon user with plenty of Nikkors in my bag. However, the lack of good wide angle primes and PC TS for the DX format have pushed me over the edge. I've decided to buy into the Canon line. I've ordered an EOS 5D and a 24mm TS lens. Eventually a few more lenses will follow as my budget will allow for them. I hate this, I would have spent the money on Nikkor WA PC / TS if there would have been any for the DX format. The other alternative would have been a FF Nikon DSLR so that my old 28mm PC could be used again as a 28mm lens. I am as mad as it gets, Nikon really screwed many of us who need WA PC / TS regularly.

Best regards,
AIK
 
Several months ago, there was the rumor that Nikon had figured out
how to reduce CA and vignetting on the edges, apparently by using
offset microlenses.
Offestting microlenses in corners towards center has been used in digital image sensors for a long time already. So no new there.
About a week ago, there was a rumor of active testing of a 20+ FF
pro body (bet that will cost a bunch!!) and an 18MP FF prosumer
body. As a Canon 5D owner, I think that 12 MP with superb noise
reduction would be a better idea for the prosumer camera.
I just wonder who would have the capacity to develop 2 new FF sensors at a time. If both really are FF, this would mean two different photocells.
It looks like it's going to be a great Photokina.

--
Bob
 
and get over it. you don't get to determine who can and can not post. get over it. i found it interesting that once again rather than just have a conversation you choose to make this personal. would it have been so hard to have responded civily?
--

Disagree with me all you like, but remember I have a right to an opinion and a right to state it.
http://www.thekmiecs.com
http://www.adamkmiec.com
 
Right now the betting would be on Canon and Nikon, in that order. But a timely strategic announcement from Sony without one from Nikon could easily change that.
Why? Because people are more likely to move from brand to brand
than before. The very fact that Sony has any chance at all against
Nikon, to me, is living proof that it's not as hard as it used to
be to get people to switch brands when they buy a new camera.
Implicit in your argument is that buying a new camera every X years is going to continue at the same pace. In other words, everyone who buys a DSLR today will buy a new one in some fixed time frame in the future. However, since I have one of the larger databases of Nikon users in the world and can and do run data mining on it, I can tell you that I already see evidence that camera turnover has slowed. Indeed, it seems to be tracking similarly to what happened when the AF ruckus started in the film SLR world. For less than a decade, there was a fast turnover in bodies and low brand loyalty. Ten years on, the turnover was mostly gone and brand loyalty reappeared. Slowing turnover makes the current lack of brand loyalty an even more dangerous thing than it is. You can wait too long to tell your customers what your future will look like.
My statement is based firstly on anedotal evidence--many serious
photographers I know have sold gear online to finance new gear
purchases.
Many serious photographers sold gear to camera stores, through Shutterbug, and at local flea markets to finance new gear purchases. Nothing has changed other than the location of the sale.
Take the rate of change of film stocks and camera bodies
You mean like Velvia being the primary choice of most pros for almost 20 years, or the fact that pros like Galen Rowell still used an F4 four years after the F5 came out (and the F5 came out 8 years after the F4)?
and
multiply them together to predict the rate of change for digital
bodies, then add in the x-factor of innovation for capabilities
that are above and beyond what was possible with film. On top of
that consider the advances in manufacturing capabilities over the
past 20 years and what that means for how quickly features can
trickle down the line.
The assumption here is that you can continue to market that successfully (which doesn't bode well for a marketing fizzle like Nikon). Frankly, it isn't AF capability, megapixels, or dynamic range that are going to get increased automatic sales at the high end. The only two things you really hear 1DsII and D2x pros complain about enough that they'd immediately vote with their wallet are high ISO performance and WORKFLOW (and the former tends to be fixed by the latter). Giving us files that are 2x the size doesn't improve workflow, it hurts it.

Frankly, I'd rather have a D200-sized D2x than a 16mp D3x right now. And a Coolpix 8800-sized D200 instead of a 16mp D300. Both with better workflows.
I'm speaking vaguely, but hopefully conveying the idea--the rate of
change in SLR cameras is not going to slow down any time soon IMO.
Well, I agree with you there. It's been increasing and it will continue to increase. This is almost a given if you look back at any tech product maturation cycle. The next few years will be a continued frenzy of new product.
With a high rate of change, products get "out of date" more
quickly, driving repurchase.
Here's where I start disagreeing with you. The "driving repurchase" statement isn't consumer based, it's manufacturer based. In other words, the maker needs to drive the repurchase cycle but the consumer doesn't necessary need to accept it. In some markets we've seen regular update cycles work. The most notable example is automobiles, where the makers have created an expectation of new product every 12 months and taught the "average" consumer to dip into that once every three years or so (leasing is a good example of that teaching). But there are plenty of examples of markets that withered at the top of the growth curve. High fidelity audio is a good example, despite plenty of new features and an almost constant product updating.

Personally, I'm less inclined to believe that people will automatically update their DSLRs just because something newer comes along. You can already see some of that inertia in this forum, what with the "my D100 still performs" and "I upgraded from a D70 to a D200 but don't see any difference" posts. (Note: I'm not saying that I agree with the content of such posts ; ). I'll predict that this will get noisier and more vociferous with each new generation of DSLR.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
You seem to be implying that a full-frame camera would somehow
change a photographer's workflow, which I don't see.
Workflow is something much more complicated than most people see. It's not just "shoot, copy to computer, Photoshop, print." FF most certainly changed the workflow for some photojournalists: they don't change lenses as often! They shoot from their position with their current lens and let the photo editor crop because they know they "have enough pixels." For a wedding photographer, file size becomes an issue. If you're dealing with 1000 images a shoot and six shoots a weekend, pushing megapixels at you starts to become a little counterproductive (on the other hand, you might like FF simply because it should offer you better noise qualities at higher ISO values).

For the past seven years, all of us shooting digital have had a constant issue we've had to deal with: we can't standardize on anything for very long and we keep encountering learning curves that come at us from every direction, which kills our overall workflow productivity. Nikon's digital flash has gone from bad D-TTL to decent D-TTL to decent i-TTL to great i-TTL. I can't set my D200 the same way I set my D2x! I couldn't set my D2x the same way I set my D1x. I couldn't set my D1x the same way I set my F5. And that's just flash. Every last little update changes something in the way we shoot, some easy enough to pick up in a day or two, some of which require more thought and time to deal with. For the same reason that you see some businesses still on Windows 95SE and Office 95, you're going to at some point soon start seeing real pros that just keep shooting and processing with what they've got. I know that if I were dependent upon income from images, I'd be thinking that very thing right now: what can I choose today that will work for me for three or four years without disruption?

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
Which is--changes in workflow happen with every new camera body, regardless of the size of the imager. Megapixels go up, features are added or altered, new accessories are introduced, technology progresses. In this context, I don't think "full frame" by itself is a paradigm change that requires a long horizon preview--which I thought was the topic of the thread (i.e. FF specifically).
Workflow is something much more complicated than most people see. It's not just "shoot, copy to computer, Photoshop, print."
Please don't make assumptions about what people know or don't know about photography, it's not very nice. It's also possible that people understand things the same way you do, but hold different opinions about them. It's my opinion that a) workflow changes are inevitable if you choose to adopt new technology; and b) the pace at which new technology becomes available is not going to slow. Therefore IMO it's best to accept changes in workflow as part of the cost of staying current, rather than dwell on what a pain they are. I cannot imagine technological progress without associated change, so as a photographer I need to balance workflow impacts against final product improvements. Nothing new there except for the pace, which is faster than it was for film bodies.

I totally agree that there is not necessarily a NEED to stay current, and some photographers will keep shooting with their D1 or 1D or D100. In fact this is the answer to those who insist on keeping a steady workflow for years at a time--just don't buy anything new. It seems to me that most photographers weigh the balance more toward staying current, though.
FF most certainly changed the workflow for some photojournalists: they don't change lenses as often! They shoot from their position with their current lens and let the photo editor crop because they know they "have enough pixels." For a wedding photographer, file size becomes an issue. If you're dealing with 1000 images a shoot and six shoots a weekend, pushing megapixels at you starts to become a little counterproductive (on the other hand, you might like FF simply because it should offer you better noise qualities at higher ISO values).
What you're talking about in this paragraph is megapixels not full frame or any other feature. Full frame is obviously linked to the number of mp, but wouldn't you say the jump from D2h to D2x raises all the same issues?
For the past seven years, all of us shooting digital have had a constant issue we've had to deal with: we can't standardize on anything for very long and we keep encountering learning curves that come at us from every direction, which kills our overall workflow productivity. Nikon's digital flash has gone from bad D-TTL to decent D-TTL to decent i-TTL to great i-TTL. I can't set my D200 the same way I set my D2x! I couldn't set my D2x the same way I set my D1x. I couldn't set my D1x the same way I set my F5. And that's just flash.
And you couldn't set your N80 the same way you set your N70, nor your F5 the same way you set your F100 (custom properties), nor could you expect the exact same performance from Velvia 100 as you could Velvia 50. Before digital, Nikon flash went from TTL to balanced fill to matrix balanced fill, to 3D matrix balanced fill, etc. Change happens!
Every last little update changes something in the way we shoot, some easy enough to pick up in a day or two, some of which require more thought and time to deal with. For the same reason that you see some businesses still on Windows 95SE and Office 95, you're going to at some point soon start seeing real pros that just keep shooting and processing with what they've got. I know that if I were dependent upon income from images, I'd be thinking that very thing right now: what can I choose today that will work for me for three or four years without disruption?
The fact of the matter is that ANY camera or software sold today will easily last three to four years without disruption--just keep using it and don't buy anything new.

BUT IMO if you insist on buying something new more often (which I would argue is necessary to remain competitive in digital imaging), I don't think it makes sense to then complain that the new things change the way you work. If you don't want change, don't buy IMO.
 
The assumption here is that you can continue to market that
successfully (which doesn't bode well for a marketing fizzle like
Nikon).
On the marketing issue....

I've always seen Nikon vs Canon marketing the same as Coke (Nikon) vs Pepsi (Canon). If you look over the long run, Coke (Nikon) has had a great name that is recognized and respected, but, their advertising has $ucked royally. There commericals and ads are terrible. The logo/name itself does better marketing than any of the ads. Pepsi (Canon) has always had an inferior product in my eyes, but, thier ads/commericals are always always much better.

If it wasn't for the recognizable name that Coke (Nikon) has, they would fade away to sit with the likes of RC Cola (Pentax).
 
becomes a personal stomping ground for whatever is on your mind?
You have about 10% of the replies in this thread and that's
actually typical of your posting history. For months it was "D200
banding", and more recently it's been "it's all about the gear",
and of course your perennial favorite "no Nikon FF". Give it a
rest already.
--
http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/myfavorites
Why is it that you feel that you need to defend all things Nikon? The products stand on their own. Only the insecure feel the need to defend a camera brand. Thom Hogan does not need you or anyone else to defend him. His work stands on its own. I get that Adam annoys you, don't let him get under your skin. Your replies only fuel the fire. If you have something to add to the topic, go for it. But if I was you (which I know I'm not), stop jousting with Adam or fuzzytalz or whoever. Your blood pressure will appreciate it.
--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR
 
The assumption here is that you can continue to market that
successfully (which doesn't bode well for a marketing fizzle like
Nikon).
On the marketing issue....

I've always seen Nikon vs Canon marketing the same as Coke (Nikon)
vs Pepsi (Canon). If you look over the long run, Coke (Nikon) has
had a great name that is recognized and respected, but, their
advertising has $ucked royally. There commericals and ads are
terrible. The logo/name itself does better marketing than any of
the ads. Pepsi (Canon) has always had an inferior product in my
eyes, but, thier ads/commericals are always always much better.

If it wasn't for the recognizable name that Coke (Nikon) has, they
would fade away to sit with the likes of RC Cola (Pentax).
I like that anaolgy but it doesn't really fit me because I prefer the taste of RC Cola over the other two and I prefer Nikon.

Look guys/gala, Nikon making a 35mm frame is going to be likely. I don't need it or really want it except it is new and that would be the only reason I would get it. It would make sense for Nikon because it would be the only way some photographers would feel the need to upgrade. I would welcome it because it would make the price of used D2X's cheaper and then i would have a higher resolution body for cheaper on those infrequent times I would really need that.
--
Chris, Broussard, LA
 
Still, I'd like to suggest (especially since someone at Nikon must
be reading this ; ) that there are lenses that would sell in
reasonably high volume that aren't currently being made. Most
notably would be a handful of missing DX equivalents:


50-135mm f/2.8 DX AF-S VR (70-200mm equivalent)
Tokina is launching a 50-135mm f2.8 DX (but not AF-S or VR) around Photokina time.
60mm f/1.4 DX AF-S VR (85mm equivalent)
Hmmm...

The prototype I got to play with was f1.2.
24mm f/1.4 DX (35mm equivalent) or 20mm f/1.4 DX (28mm equivalent)
12mm f/2.8 DX (20mm equivalent)
I agree on those.

A nice 30mm f1.4 or 1.2 would be welcome. Can't let Sigma have all the fun.

--
The Pistons led the NBA, and lost in the playoffs.
The Red Wings led the NHL, and lost in the playoffs.

It's up to the Tigers now...
Leading the league, and going all the way!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Thom,

I'd add a 60mm PC Micro T/S lens to that group. I'm tooling up to do a lot of tabletop product work and I don't want to do it at 128mm (equiv.). That's a big reason why I'm almost ready to jump to Canon. That, and I'm just sick and tired of Nikon's anti-customer corporate attitudes.

Lloyd
 
becomes a personal stomping ground for whatever is on your mind?
You have about 10% of the replies in this thread and that's
actually typical of your posting history. For months it was "D200
banding", and more recently it's been "it's all about the gear",
and of course your perennial favorite "no Nikon FF". Give it a
rest already.
--
http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/myfavorites
Well, I see your point.

However, stop talking about something that bothers many of us will not make the issue disappear. There was an issue with D200 banding that made the furious threads valid. There is an issue to with FF versus DX too. That is the lack of lenses that were respectively available for FF 35mm . Give us full line WA prime lenses, including PC or TS, or a 35mm size sensor so that some lenses can crawl out of the bag and enjoy their previous status. Once one of the two will happen then the flames will go out. I do not think that this grumping about FF versus DX is a fashionable thing. It is simply a thing, that exists for a valid reason. I know, it is about the gear. However, our old gear 35mm f2, 20mm f2.8, 28mm f3.5 PC, and alike keep gathering dust. Instead of we have a few variable f stop zooms with f5.6 at the longer end and a kind of wiggly plastic construction. Yes, it is about gear, it is nice to have that gear available in practice as opposed to in theory.

The D200 banding issue is gone mostly, so is the talk. The lack of fast WA prime lenses and lack of WA PC / TS lenses issue remains. So, some of us will keep grumping about it till something happens. That can be an F-mount 35mm DSLR or the introduction of the missing lenses for the DX format. Furthermore, it is not a must to participate in those threads that are not appealing to us. It is like reading a newspaper, if the subject is not of our liking or interests then we just turn the page.

Cheers to all,
AIK
 
Say Ubi, did you have anything to contribute to this discussion?
Thom has lots of credentials and shares his insights and experience
freely in these forums. His bona fides are readily available, lots
of people here own and benefit from his camera guides, and I for
one read everthing he posts. Thom is often critical of Nikon, and
has said some things in the last couple of days that Nikon would
never put out in a press release. You on the other hand, are a
complete stranger to me and your post smacks of Canon troublemaking.
Sorry! I'm "smack". A human asking a question. Hit a nerve, I guess.
These "tribal forum" areas in DP where people ask honest questions
and get flamed for doing so proves the ridiculousness of this thing!!!!

It's just photography folks. Whatever the brand. ...or the price to play?

Ubi.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 
when you are perceived to slaughter sacred cows.
I understand now, Adam.
Hogan is a 'sacred cow'. ;-)

Never question anything, too Adam?

Dang, then these forums are basically a "Red-Commie" hearing
in progress where all should shut up and never question anything????

Ubi.
 
..they have to make Sony make a FF sensor which basically means Sony would have a FF sensor too, right?
 
Anyone here doing AD-photography, products?? where the end-product will be billboard-size posters?? around 160x120 cm and much more?
No, didnt think so. You need FF 24mp? for what? little A4 covers? come on.

In AD photography I use the H1 with digital backs etc. Listen to Thom switch to Canon.

By the sound of things here at this Forum some 90% dont need more than jpg-fine or the compressed mode of Nefs.
FF? for what? spreading out the pixels, more MP, less quality.
No thanks.

all the best Fred
 

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