H5 EVF/LCD Question

I have a Canon S1 which I take on travels a lot (much more than my Rebel XT, actually), but I'm looking to trade up. The camera produces terrific pictures, but I find the viewfinder and LCD extremely frustrating -- the EVF is quite low res, and the LCD is difficult to see at all in daylight -- so I often find myself guessing about the composition of the shot.

I'd been planning to trade up to the Canon S3 with a larger LCD, but the EVF is still low res. So the H5 caught my eye -- the viewfinder seems much more detailed and usable. But I have a question about the LCD.

One of my favorite features of the S1 is the flip out and swivel LCD--it's great for taking candid shots and extending your reach. I'm wondering whether the angle-of-view on the H5 LCD can substitute to some degree. (My main gripe against the H2 is that the LCD seemed to have a pretty limited viewing angle.)

So, to H5 users: to what extent is it possible to frame shots when the camera is held at the waist, or over the head, or to the side??

Also, is the viewfinder really as much of an improvement as it seemed during my 5 minutes with the camera at Best Buy last weekend?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

My personal opinion is I LOVE THE LARGE LCD.....I can see it from a far away angle. I have never used a lcd to frame a pic so often. It is wonderful.
This is my personal opinion.
--
Thanks,
CJ
High Alert!

If I lock my elbows against my waist I can still see the screen image (slight color shift) well enough to frame a picture, but the EV eye piece covers a portion of the view. Overhead it would be about the same 50 to 60 degree angle but no eye piece in the way.

SteveSol said:

I have a Canon S1 which I take on travels a lot (much more than my
Rebel XT, actually), but I'm looking to trade up. The camera
produces terrific pictures, but I find the viewfinder and LCD
extremely frustrating -- the EVF is quite low res, and the LCD is
difficult to see at all in daylight -- so I often find myself
guessing about the composition of the shot.

Click to expand...

Agree with you on the LCD. I have a friend with the S2 (he got it the same time I got the H1) and it was very difficult to use sometimes. We shot side by side and swapped cams on occasion.

I especially had a hard time with the Auto Rotate feature, as the "portrait" framed images were hardly distiguishable on the tiny LCD after they were rotated.

SteveSol said:

One of my favorite features of the S1 is the flip out and swivel
LCD--it's great for taking candid shots and extending your reach.
I'm wondering whether the angle-of-view on the H5 LCD can
substitute to some degree.

Click to expand...

SteveSol said:

So, to H5 users: to what extent is it possible to frame shots when
the camera is held at the waist, or over the head, or to the side??

Click to expand...

You will miss the articulating LCD at times of course (I just love my swivel-body F717 for exactly the same reasons). But you'll adapt. Off-axis (to almost 180 degrees in all directions), the LCD remains very clear and can be used for composing/framing (with the usual scrunched perspective caveats). No problems getting the AF brackets on-target at all though. Took many shots of the visiting Nieces and Nephews this past week. Had a great time.



R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

1/20 sec @ f3.5, ISO400 at about 4x zoom, Noise Ninja. Handheld chasing the little buggers around (the IS really works). Luckily he stopped for a split second.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

I have an H1 and just tried an H5 in the store for 45 minutes. The big 3" LCD is nice and pretty viewable from various angles. I totally agree with you on the S1 and S2 viewfinders -- far, far too grainy for my taste, and it was one of several major reasons why I chose the H1 over the S2 last summer. Can't speak to the S3's EVF, as I haven't had any reason to look at it.

Also, the forums here had many posts over the Canon S series' LCD not being viewable in bright sunlight (that's a death knell for me, as I take a lot of outdoor shots).

Yes, I miss having the articulating screen, but I also found I couldn't see a darn thing on that itty bitty Canon LCD and the menus were far too small. Overall, I found I rarely need to shoot over crowds, so here's my thinking:

I'd rather have a very big and bright LCD that I could use 90+% of the time. It wasn't worth sacrificing the viewability 90+% of the time for the 10% of the time I needed the articulation. Yes, this means I've had to kneel or lay on the ground to get some really cool shots, or hold it over the crowd and cross my fingers, but that's the way it goes.

Also, I'm not sure if the latest (S3) has a live histogram, but the lack thereof on the S2 was another nail in the coffin. I really like having one, exactly because LCD's are really bad for determining your exposure -- they always look nice and bright indoors and varying degrees of being washed out outside.

Just my perspective and preferences.

J2B

I have been evaluating the S3 and H5 ultrazooms as well. Several visits to CC to handle them have convinced me that, except for self portraits, the wide angle view of the H5 LCD is sufficient to frrame a shot at waist level or overhead or right angle adequately in the lightiong of the store. Don't know about in outdoor or dimmer light environments. With the coarse S3 LCD a swivel is absolutely needed.

---mamallama

First of all, the LCD is excellent - high resolution, excellent visibility even in direct sunlight (we get alot of that down in Florida), and I would agree that visibility remains off-angle up or down in the area of 45 degrees or more...with some slight color and brightness shift, but more than enough to frame a subject.

I will add though that I think the LCD performs better off angle up or down...as compared to side-by-side. Viewed from side angles, the falloff is much more pronounced...so it may not have quite the flexibility to use to frame when holding out to one side or the other. Overall, it will never completely replace the convenience of a true swivel/movable LCD mount...but it certainly out-performs in color, brightness, sharpness, and resolution.

The EVF has been wonderful for me, and I use this one more than on the H1 or 717. The EVF is quite small...but extremely high resolution...so it is bright and crisp, and easy to frame and track subjects with. Of course, it isn't as strong a tool to use for minute focus adjustments, as it would be too small to really visualize that small of a detail, but the clarity and also (for me at least) the comfort of the EVF compared to the H1 make it much more usable.

I'll never be able to pull off what I could with my 717 though...A few times in a crowd, I had the 717 on a tripod with the legs closed, I was able to swivel the LCD downwards, hold the camera above my head, set the timer, focus and meter, then press the shutter...and while the timer was counting down held the camera 5 feet into the sky at the end of the tripod, with the LCD angled down, and snap a picture far above every head in the crowd.
--
Justin

The EVF is very clear to shoot with. I have no idea how one can frame the LCD to the side and use it. But the EVF is great.
--
H5.N1.(P72.)

Many thanks for the thoughtful replies so far. I just wanted to add two more cents.

The S3 does have a live histogram, like the H5. It also has optional gridlines, if that moves you.

I found an H5 in a local store today and played with it for about 20 mins. Aside from the fact that the pre-focus seemed broken (there was no half-press to the shutter--I assume it was just a bum unit), I was pretty impressed. I agree that the LCD is useful for framing shots to at least 45 degrees, and the only real annoyance is the obstruction of the view by the eyepiece structure. I also found my thumb accidentally hitting the macro button quite often.

For me, the articulating LCD isn't so much about getting a great angle; for that I'm willing to lie down or shoot blind. It's more useful for shooting people unobtrusively. The shot below, with the S1 from a village in China, is one I'd have missed if I lifted the camera to eye level.



Still, I think I'd have managed this with the H5 as well, and the extra pixels leave more room to crop. I'm leaning toward getting it.

Thanks again,
Steve

I ttink you did a great job on this - really like it. ISO 400 even with noise treatment looks like it came through well. I would have never imagined you used a 3rd party noise reducer as the sharpness and detail remains.

Is there a reason you chose 3.5 as your settign for aperture priority? Have you found the h5 exposes better if you compensate yourself on the aperture sde for light? I am trying to learn somethign here. My experiments with indoor portraiture is to use shutter prioirty with the higher ISO.

Underexposed but easily adjusted in PP, this shot was taken in P Mode with almost all auto settings (WB, ISO) but with spot metering and a very compliant subject. I posted this bfore but thought I'd share. This was simply reduced in size and sharpened. The Exif info should show with a right-click and the Panda software installed on your system:

No PP with some mild compression degradation...



Daniel

--

H5, H1 (I sold this one on eBay for 287 plus shipping), HP 945 (I still have this one - takes superb indoor shots), Love (this is my most impt piece of equipment - cheesy laff goes here)

I meant to point out that in the picture above, even at actual size, you can't really see any noise at all with the camera' auto choice of ISO 320 ...

--

H5, H1 (I sold this one on eBay for 287 plus shipping), HP 945 (I still have this one - takes superb indoor shots), Love (this is my most impt piece of equipment - cheesy laff goes here)

gotlogos said:

I ttink you did a great job on this - really like it. ISO 400 even
with noise treatment looks like it came through well. I would have
never imagined you used a 3rd party noise reducer as the sharpness
and detail remains.

Click to expand...

Thanks Daniel. I use a moderate amount of NR, but then "restore" detail in the areas that had lost too much, such as the hair strands in the partly shadowed and shadowed areas, the hair in the well lit areas, skin in the well lit areas, eyes, eyebrows, lips, shirt texture. Noise Ninja is pretty flexible in this regard.

gotlogos said:

Is there a reason you chose 3.5 as your settign for aperture
priority?

Click to expand...

Absolutely was forced to shoot at max aperture (which I like to do in any case - in order to help isolate the subject). The tyke was running all over and the light was quite dim (should really have been using ISO800 - see my other thread for a sample). Called his name and fortunately he stopped for a second. Even then the shutter speed was 1/20 sec (got REALLY lucky with this one to be sure).

gotlogos said:

Have you found the h5 exposes better if you compensate
yourself on the aperture sde for light?

Click to expand...

For general shooting, I like to use Aperture Priority and Center-weighted metering. The aperture selection will have the most profound effect on the look of the resulting image (unless you are shooting for some special "shutter" effects such as blurred wingtips, etc).

So I set the aperture and watch the shutter speed. When the shutter speed gets too slow (and I'm getting too many blurry pictures), then I grudgingly bump up the ISO in order to increase the shutter speed.

How much compensation to use depends entirely on the scene, and the metering mode you're in. Watch the display closely and check your Histogram in order to determine when you've attained the desired exposure.

gotlogos said:

I am trying to learn
somethign here. My experiments with indoor portraiture is to use
shutter prioirty with the higher ISO.

Click to expand...

Shutter priority can be a bit tricky to use, because the camera often runs out of available apertures to use (the aperture symbol starts flashing). Pics then become underexposed or overexposed if you don't stop to change the shutter speed you have set. Plus I don't like using any higher ISO than is absolutely necessary (due to noise and color issues).

Keep in mind that when you are shooting in Aperture Priority and are at maximum aperture, the camera will always select the Fastest shutter speed possible. So if you are trying to eliminate blur or stop motion, this is naturally the ideal setting to use.

gotlogos said:

Underexposed but easily adjusted in PP, this shot was taken in P
Mode with almost all auto settings (WB, ISO) but with spot metering
and a very compliant subject.

Click to expand...

A fine photo indeed, though yes, a bit underexposed. Keep in mind that a well exposed picture will also be a cleaner one. I realize that ssslooowing down the shutter speed (to increase the exposure) might have been disastrous, as it was already very very slow. Getting the balance right - between blur and noise is always tough. Adding more light is usually the better option.

Hope this helps some.
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

Wow - what a great primer on indoor no flash shooting. I enjoyed reading this - thanks much for sharing your experience and expertise. I am goign to store this in my IE faves for future reference.

i especially liked this:

********************************
" Keep in mind that when you are shooting in Aperture Priority and
are at maximum aperture, the camera will always select the Fastest
shutter speed possible. So if you are trying to eliminate blur or
stop motion, this is naturally the ideal setting to use."
********************************

My P mode auto settings chose 1/13 shutter for my subject but you attained 1/20 (which can really help with IS - its almost twice as long) using Aperture Priority, although my auto mode chose 320 (seems like the engineers find this a sweet spot?)

R2D2 said:

gotlogos said:

I ttink you did a great job on this - really like it. ISO 400 even
with noise treatment looks like it came through well. I would have
never imagined you used a 3rd party noise reducer as the sharpness
and detail remains.

Click to expand...

Thanks Daniel. I use a moderate amount of NR, but then "restore"
detail in the areas that had lost too much, such as the hair
strands in the partly shadowed and shadowed areas, the hair in the
well lit areas, skin in the well lit areas, eyes, eyebrows, lips,
shirt texture. Noise Ninja is pretty flexible in this regard.

Click to expand...

I am goign to have to look into it. How you are restoring 'detail' makes me curious about the software, its controls and capabilities because the jjob you did on this shot shows absolutely no hokey-pokey with any noise reduction program.

R2D2 said:

R2D2 said:

Have you found the h5 exposes better if you compensate
yourself on the aperture sde for light?

Click to expand...

For general shooting, I like to use Aperture Priority and
Center-weighted metering. The aperture selection will have the
most profound effect on the look of the resulting image (unless you
are shooting for some special "shutter" effects such as blurred
wingtips, etc).

So I set the aperture and watch the shutter speed. When the
shutter speed gets too slow (and I'm getting too many blurry
pictures), then I grudgingly bump up the ISO in order to increase
the shutter speed.

Click to expand...

Very good advice and certainly something to work from. Thanks!

R2D2 said:

R2D2 said:

Underexposed but easily adjusted in PP, this shot was taken in P
Mode with almost all auto settings (WB, ISO) but with spot metering
and a very compliant subject.

Click to expand...

A fine photo indeed, though yes, a bit underexposed. Keep in mind
that a well exposed picture will also be a cleaner one. I realize
that ssslooowing down the shutter speed (to increase the exposure)
might have been disastrous, as it was already very very slow.
Getting the balance right - between blur and noise is always tough.
Adding more light is usually the better option.

Click to expand...

That was actually one of the first pics I took with the H5 (I had a similar composition just before this that blurrred - so this one I got lucky. Now that I am a bit more familiar with the cam, in this situation next time I might up the ISO to 400 whilst keeping the shutter at around 1/8 sec as I have found that I can take a fairly stable pic with IS at that shutter speed.

R2D2 said:

Hope this helps some.
R2

Click to expand...

YES - helped very much - thanks again for taking time out of your Saturday...

Daniel

--

H5, H1 (I sold this one on eBay for 287 plus shipping), HP 945 (I still have this one - takes superb indoor shots), Love (this is my most impt piece of equipment - cheesy laff goes here)