It's on ... L1 finalized :)

Still, even when taking the $200 14-45mm away from the E330's price (which would be $899) and taking the $800 14-50mm away from the L1's price (which would be $1199) you still get a $300 US difference. In what way, is the L1 worth $300 US more than the E330?

Jón Ragnarsson said:

DLL_4ever said:

honza_pl said:

except it will be very cheap, but it's not expectable ..

Click to expand...

According to Phils review the camera will cost approx. $2000 US
with the kit lens. For this type of camera, that is not very cheap,
IMO. The E-330, which is a better camera from what i can tell, is
$900 US cheaper, with the kit lens.

--
Danny Rasmussen - aka - the Great Dane

Owner of: E1, 14-45mm, 35mm macro, 40-150mm, SHLD-2 battery grip,
FL-36 flash

Click to expand...

--
http://www.4-3system.com/
http://jonr.light.is/

Click to expand...

--
Danny Rasmussen - aka - the Great Dane

Owner of: E1, 14-45mm, 35mm macro, 40-150mm, SHLD-2 battery grip, FL-36 flash

viztyger said:

With the film SLRs I used to use, I was always crawling along the
ground or climbing fences to get a unique/dramatic viewpoint. There
was just no other way since you were forced to frame through the
OVF. With the LX1 it's a little better, but you still have to have
your face in general alignment with the LCD screen. On the LX1 not
having a tilting screen is forgivable as it is extremely compact.

The L1 on the other hand is huge compared to the LX1 and could most
certainly have accomodated a tilting screen. That really would have
made use of all the advantages that live-preview offers.

Click to expand...

they should have made a flip lcd. I wonder if that would have 'ruined' their retro look? otoh, even HAVING an lcd ruins the retro look, truth be told.

viztyger said:

I feel the same way you do about not having a tilting screen being
a deal-breaker, and I haven't even had a camera that has one!

Click to expand...

the pany camp took a lot of abuse from the canonites when their s2is had a flip lcd and the fz5 did not. and I did admit to both camps that they 'won' on that point.

fz30 came out. not as good as canon (vertical instead of horizontal) but it was infinitely more usable than the fz# series before it.

they got a lot of praise for that.

but it appears that they can't learn lessons.

viztyger said:

viztyger said:

the L1 is too little too late. sony will eat them alive, even
though the two aren't exactly shooting for the same audience. the
price the price the price. it IS a lot about the price. pany blew
it bigtime.

Click to expand...

Nobody is going to eat anybody alive just yet. Panasonic certainly
hasn't revealed all its cards yet. What about that elusive
"LMOS-EVIL" camera, perhaps with a large pivoting LCD screen? Or am
I dreaming?

Click to expand...

sure, lets wait and see about other models.

but no flip lcd on this one was a slap in the face to possible fz30 upgraders. since it was a ground-up design (more or less) they could easily have leveraged the work they ALREADY DID on the fz30 and even just used THAT screen tech.

I just wanna get my hands on pany marketing's necks and pull a homer simpson on them WHAT were they thinking??

--
bryan (pics @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more @ http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

In Olympus E330, there's an 80-20 split, that takes 20% of light from the viewfinder into "Mode A" life-view sensor. Which darkens the viewfinder about 1/4 of a stop (not enough to be an issue, in my opinion). The Panasonic doesn't have "Mode A" (or a separate sensor for life view). Aside from that, life view in no way interferes with the viewfinder size or brightness.

linuxworks said:

no one said it was a $100 kittie.

Click to expand...

wasn't L1 + Leica 14-50 OIS compared to Oly E-330 + 14-45 and Sony Alpha 100 + Sony 18-70 ?

Both lenses are not worth more than 100$ if you buy them with the camera.

linuxworks said:

pany has never been a top-end name brand in cameras. we pany users
know full well what they're capable of in the $500 price point p/s
market. they almost can't be beat in that segment.

multiply by 4 and you've shot your core market all to hell.

Click to expand...

I do not think that the L1 aims at the FZ buyers market (as you can clearly see on the reactions in that forum), it looks more like the successor to the LC1, which was not cheap either.

Compared to the LC1 with nor RAW buffer, EVF, 2/3" sensor and fixed lens the L1 does not look so expensive, doesn't it?

linuxworks said:

I gotta be honest. if I had $2k to spend, it would be on a REAL
pro body and not some poseur.

Click to expand...

There are not many "real pro" bodys available at that price. Maybe a used Canon 1D or Nikon D2h.

I doubt that they could do what an L1 can do and vice versa...

linuxworks said:

pany blew it with the price. for a $750 cam+lens it would sell and
temp some of us p/s'ers. for $1k, well, it would give serious
thought away from the sony, for example. for $2k? again, I laugh.

Click to expand...

I would recommend a Nikon D50, Oly E-500 or Pentax *istDL + kit lens to you in that case...

best regards

DLL_4ever said:

Still, even when taking the $200 14-45mm away from the E330's price
(which would be $899) and taking the $800 14-50mm away from the
L1's price (which would be $1199) you still get a $300 US
difference. In what way, is the L1 worth $300 US more than the E330?

Click to expand...

14-45 = 100$ (as a kit), Leica 14-50 OIS = 1000$ and you are there ;-)

I assume that the metal body + lots of external controls of the L1 + a smaller niche market will add to the price, too...

(compare Nikon D200 and Sony Alpha 100)

Jon (sorry, I can not type your name correctly with my keyboard system),

I do not agree with you that Panasonic wants to sell in small number, the tooling costs, R & D and promotion costs are huge money spent. Numbers of units sold is important, I have been in manufacturing business for several years, I don't think they can make money if selling only 10,000 units or less. Unlike the mechanical cameras, which can be HAND MADE in small batch and sell with good profit, but now the L1 are almost composed of all electronic or electron-mechanical components. Remember the Epson RD1 which use Leica mount lens, they are the real small numbers production, it is much expensive than the L1.

I guess only the Japanese has the comprehensive technology to manufacture advanced DSLR, Leica is nice optics, but need more than good optics to make a good DSLR. The Canon, Nikon, Minolta, Carl Zeiss are also producing good optics, Leica is not in a position to ask for a selling price of US$800 for a short zoom, Panasonic also makes the OIS inside.

L100, highly unlikely. To kill its already super successful FZ30?

BR,

Danny

danny_only said:

I do not agree with you that Panasonic wants to sell in small
number,

Click to expand...

They said at PMA that they didn't expect the L1 to sell in great numbers.
For a company to state something like that is pretty extraordinary.
Anyway, seems they realise what they are doing. They'll outsell
Sigma easily anyway.

danny_only said:

the tooling costs, R & D and promotion costs are huge money
spent. Numbers of units sold is important, I have been in
manufacturing business for several years, I don't think they can
make money if selling only 10,000 units or less.

Click to expand...

They share some development costs with the E-330 and perhaps
future models from Panny or Oly.

What they lose on the L1, they hope to gain from charging a few %
extra on the compacts, IMHO.

danny_only said:

L100, highly unlikely. To kill its already super successful FZ30?

Click to expand...

At PMA, they hinted that there would be other DSLR models too.
(More consumer oriented, I guess.) Also, Joe W. handled a completely
different non-Oly 4/3rds body already around Christmas, a camera that
hasn't seen the light of the day yet.

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden
F Z 5 and a pile of accessories

Erik37 said:

They'll outsell Sigma easily anyway.

Click to expand...

& Vivitar too. )

Erik37 said:

What they lose on the L1, they hope to gain from charging a few %
extra on the compacts, IMHO.

Click to expand...

In this case, they need to release TZ2 now, I will support them whole-heartedly. But still need to see more reviews first before I reach for my wallet.

Erik37 said:

At PMA, they hinted that there would be other DSLR models too.
(More consumer oriented, I guess.) Also, Joe W. handled a completely
different non-Oly 4/3rds body already around Christmas, a camera that
hasn't seen the light of the day yet.

Click to expand...

Then it will not be a L100, but it is a smart move. I was wondering why don't Panasonic simply co-operate with Leica to provide OIS based 4/3 standard Leica lens and oem E330. Then develop a high end L1 plus with Panasonic unique mount and charge an Epson RD1 price. It is getting lately, I am not doing very good thinking now, but it is nice to know they have a second shot ready, I have spent times in the software business, so I don't trust non-existing stuff, after being fooled so many times. Let's hope it is not a vapor DSLR)

Good night.

BR,

Danny

I do agree with bryan on this - if you have the features that the L1 has with live preview its silly not making the LCD a tilt/swivel design. I had hoped that after the PMA showing that panasonic would have added this feature as it would have made the camera even better.

Cheers

HarjTT

)>

$2,000.00 and I could go head-to-head (in bird shots and BIFs) with the Canons and the Nikons. Leica glass won't help so-so subject, non-optimized settings, poor composition and the desire not to understand the basic of photography. The price is not too attractive when there is now the Sony Alpha alternative. One poster keep on saying this LC1 will blow away anything that Pana had done but bear in mind that in some situations, the TZ1 could be a better option : ). Let us wait for the formal review and early user output.
cheers,
gil

--
**************
My images are of age. They can speak for themselves : ).
http://art4less.smugmug.com

it's not ment to compete with any other Panasonic models but with the likes of Canon 30d...
--
Cheers,
Ricardo

HarjTT said:

I do agree with bryan on this - if you have the features that the
L1 has with live preview its silly not making the LCD a tilt/swivel
design. I had hoped that after the PMA showing that panasonic would
have added this feature as it would have made the camera even
better.

Click to expand...

thanks harj.

they did have time, I think, to collect lots of feedback right after the preannouncement. if there was ANY doubt about the flip screen (inside pany marketing) it should have been very clear-cut even just days after the l1 news. in fact, it sure seemed like they wanted some more time to get field review on a model that didn't even reach the field yet!

I have to think that either:

1) they felt VERY strongly about omitting the swing lcd. no user feedback would matter to them.

2) they admitted it was a brain-fart not putting it in; but due to the schedule and the locked-in ship date, they just didn't have time for major changes

if there is a 'consumer' version, I would put money on that, that its the fz replacement and they wouldn't DARE pull BACK a swing lcd (fz30) if there is a model between the l1 and the current fz30. that middle model would have to have the swing lcd.

if the fz30 was a one-time chassis and the only instance of a swing lcd from pany, I -would- be surprised.

but very sad that their big splash (l1) didn't have this feature. big big mistake, pany. I would have sacrificed other features (if I was in product marketing for that group) just to make sure we got the swing lcd in.

damn. such a shame.

--
bryan (pics @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more @ http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

or maybe camera (and lens!) is too big.
--
Cheers,
Ricardo

gil said:

The price is not too
attractive when there is now the Sony Alpha alternative.

Click to expand...

I have also been saying that.

I hate sony. but they blew pany's price point totally out of the water. pany's price is mostly a joke.

sony had it right. sigh. and I REALLY hate saying that...

--
bryan (pics @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more @ http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

if the L1 is to carve a niche for itself... And to get some light into that tiny little excuse for a viewfinder.

And Olympus users would surely buy them like hotcakes!!!
--
Cheers,
Ricardo

Cephalotus said:

DLL_4ever said:

Still, even when taking the $200 14-45mm away from the E330's price
(which would be $899) and taking the $800 14-50mm away from the
L1's price (which would be $1199) you still get a $300 US
difference. In what way, is the L1 worth $300 US more than the E330?

Click to expand...

14-45 = 100$ (as a kit), Leica 14-50 OIS = 1000$ and you are there ;-)

Click to expand...

$100? Where are you able to get a 14-45mm lens for $100? The cheapest (new) one that I can find is $200 US at BHphotovideo.

And $1000 for the 14-50??? That would NEVER happen. Look at the Zuiko 14-54mm f2.8-3.5 lens. It's built solid, weatherproof, has a bit longer maximum focal length, and has the same aperture range as the 14-50mm. This is selling for $430 US, brand new. There's no way the 14-50mm lens would sell for $1000 US, just because it has OIS. $600-$800 sounds about right, but defidentally no more than that..

--
Danny Rasmussen - aka - the Great Dane

Owner of: E1, 14-45mm, 35mm macro, 40-150mm, SHLD-2 battery grip, FL-36 flash

linuxworks said:

if there is a 'consumer' version, I would put money on that, that
its the fz replacement and they wouldn't DARE pull BACK a swing lcd
(fz30) if there is a model between the l1 and the current fz30.

Click to expand...

Not having a flexible LCD after putting one on the FZ30 would seem like a step back, but sometimes camera companies DO step back - stupidly, I believe.

For instance the UZ-2100 - no IS cameras from Olympus after it, for which they have earned my contempt. Likewise the Canon Pro1 did not have the IS of the Pro90. Minolta failed to carry the high-res EVF of the A2 over to the A200.

So yes, it's possible that an FZ30 successor might not have a flexible LCD. And I hope to hell that a consumer version of the L1 is NOT that camera. I don't want some crippled version of the already flawed L1. Their live view implementation (and the Olympus 330's) is half-baked - either do it right, or not at all. I want a real FZ40 with improved higher ISOs, high resolution/high refresh EVF, and a built-in RF remote.

and the noise the A100 makes when you press on the shutter will tell people who know it is a POS as far as a DSLR.

As Sony and Panny are going for vastly different customer bases, neither will have each other, much less "eat the other". You do not seem to know much about marketing.

--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida
D Two X and a spare.
Leica Digilux Two
Panny LC One
Leica D-Lux Two

linuxworks said:

gil said:

The price is not too
attractive when there is now the Sony Alpha alternative.

Click to expand...

I have also been saying that.

I hate sony. but they blew pany's price point totally out of the
water. pany's price is mostly a joke.

sony had it right. sigh. and I REALLY hate saying that...

--
bryan (pics @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more @ http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

Click to expand...

I hate sony too, but it seems that the Alpha will wipe out the L-1 probably...but then it never was a mass market camera anyway!

The price is no shock really...some will pay it...I wouldnt...for that I could gear up with every lens and flash I ever wanted for my KM5D...still maybe it will get a price drop!

This is no Leica and the L1 is the consumer version.

Not everone HAS GOT to have a swing out LCD.

--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida
D Two X and a spare.
Leica Digilux Two
Panny LC One
Leica D-Lux Two