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Scary post on Canon SLR forum re: "E" noise.

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Jeff Morris

Jeff Morris

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Last night I responded to a post in the Canon SLR forum. It was brought to our attention by Derek in this forum. I went to the Canon forum and read the "D-20 vs E-20" threads he made note of:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1866028

I responded to this thread with a new post.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1874004

At first the responses to my post were cordial then they got nasty: final post made very heavy claims against the "E" series by Peter Greg it reads as follows:

"This post is lame. Buy an E10 or E20 and go to the Olympus SLR forum to talk about it, not here. I don't want to have E10 discussions here.

The E10 is so inferioir to the D30, it is a joke. When Olympus changed it to the E20 they left the most dreaded part of the camera in tact - the noise. How anyone would buy a camera with so much noise is beyond me. I would not buy that camera if it were $500!!! I would know in my mind, without a shadow of a doubt - every time I was taking a picture it was full of noise. It would bother me so much to know my pictures were inferior becaue of the noise in EVERY frame!

I couldn't even have the E20 as a backup camera. You take a nice picture for a portrait and you can't enlarge it, it gets so full of the noise factor in the highlights. Olympus should be ashamed of itself. Then they take the E10, keep the same price and up it to an E20 and just add a high sensor! What a joke on people. Who would buy such a thing and spend their hard earned cash??? You can get a Minolta D7 for under a thousand dollars and have a MUCH better camera!! The D7 is lighter, cheaper and it is made by Minolta. It has an EXCELLENT lens compared to the E10 I saw.

I don't believe you can even say D30 and E20 in the same sentence. It almost a sin to do so. The D30 has almost NO noise and you can change the lenses. There is no dust issue with the D30 either. It is a real pro's type of camera. The E10 feels like a toy to me.

Have you seen the price of the flash that Olympus has married to the E20? What a ripoff. You can buy a whole other digicam for that price!!!

All in all, the D30 is a pro's camera and the E20 is a higher end high noise ameture's camera. I feel bad for the people that bought it when I know they could have had a D30 and be so much happier. Eveytime i see somebody with an E10 hanging around their neck, I feel like going over to them and just saying "I'm sorry".

Just my opinions though, people should get what they really want.

Pete "

Am I missing something? Is the E-20 as bad as Peter says? Will we run the risk of loosing our democracy because of the high level of noise in our pictrures? Should I go out and purchase a D-30 just to get on their forum to drive people like this nuts? If the "E" series is not worth $500 than why are people paying $2000 for them? Peter must know something we don't.

After work I will reread a few reviews to understand what I did wrong in purchasing an E-20..--Jeff Morris
 
The only thing I can say: this is poor man, I own the E-20P and yes she's got some little
noise, but also Canon has much less definition!!!

John
http://homepage.mac.com/jgb/PhotoAlbum2.html
Jeff Morris said:
Last night I responded to a post in the Canon SLR forum. It was
brought to our attention by Derek in this forum. I went to the
Canon forum and read the "D-20 vs E-20" threads he made note of:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1866028

I responded to this thread with a new post.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1874004

At first the responses to my post were cordial then they got nasty:
final post made very heavy claims against the "E" series by Peter
Greg it reads as follows:

"This post is lame. Buy an E10 or E20 and go to the Olympus SLR
forum to talk about it, not here. I don't want to have E10
discussions here.

The E10 is so inferioir to the D30, it is a joke. When Olympus
changed it to the E20 they left the most dreaded part of the camera
in tact - the noise. How anyone would buy a camera with so much
noise is beyond me. I would not buy that camera if it were $500!!!
I would know in my mind, without a shadow of a doubt - every time I
was taking a picture it was full of noise. It would bother me so
much to know my pictures were inferior becaue of the noise in EVERY
frame!

I couldn't even have the E20 as a backup camera. You take a nice
picture for a portrait and you can't enlarge it, it gets so full of
the noise factor in the highlights. Olympus should be ashamed of
itself. Then they take the E10, keep the same price and up it to an
E20 and just add a high sensor! What a joke on people. Who would
buy such a thing and spend their hard earned cash??? You can get a
Minolta D7 for under a thousand dollars and have a MUCH better
camera!! The D7 is lighter, cheaper and it is made by Minolta. It
has an EXCELLENT lens compared to the E10 I saw.

I don't believe you can even say D30 and E20 in the same sentence.
It almost a sin to do so. The D30 has almost NO noise and you can
change the lenses. There is no dust issue with the D30 either. It
is a real pro's type of camera. The E10 feels like a toy to me.

Have you seen the price of the flash that Olympus has married to
the E20? What a ripoff. You can buy a whole other digicam for that
price!!!

All in all, the D30 is a pro's camera and the E20 is a higher end
high noise ameture's camera. I feel bad for the people that bought
it when I know they could have had a D30 and be so much happier.
Eveytime i see somebody with an E10 hanging around their neck, I
feel like going over to them and just saying "I'm sorry".

Just my opinions though, people should get what they really want.

Pete "

Am I missing something? Is the E-20 as bad as Peter says? Will we
run the risk of loosing our democracy because of the high level of
noise in our pictrures? Should I go out and purchase a D-30 just
to get on their forum to drive people like this nuts? If the "E"
series is not worth $500 than why are people paying $2000 for them?
Peter must know something we don't.

After work I will reread a few reviews to understand what I did
wrong in purchasing an E-20..
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
--JGB
 
Beth wrote:
Oh my gosh! Get ready for the flame wars BETWEEN boards!

I have the E10 and my brother has a D30. We spent a week shooting the same scenes in early November. He was satisfied with his lack of noise, but was tearing his hair out getting accurate color.

I had to deal with some noise (He shared a noise fix action he had found with me and it has helped.), but my colors were right on! We both had fun taking pictures, manipulating them and comparing them. I would say that when we were finished after a 'shoot,' we were satisfied with what we had gotten and there wasn't a huge difference between the output.

The one place where there was a significant difference was his ability to pull in those little song birds with his 400mm lense. He is very interested in bird photography. I am not particularly. His camera works for him; mine works for me. We're both happy!
John G. Biddlecombe said:
John
http://homepage.mac.com/jgb/PhotoAlbum2.html
Jeff Morris said:
Last night I responded to a post in the Canon SLR forum. It was
brought to our attention by Derek in this forum. I went to the
Canon forum and read the "D-20 vs E-20" threads he made note of:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1866028

I responded to this thread with a new post.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1874004

At first the responses to my post were cordial then they got nasty:
final post made very heavy claims against the "E" series by Peter
Greg it reads as follows:

"This post is lame. Buy an E10 or E20 and go to the Olympus SLR
forum to talk about it, not here. I don't want to have E10
discussions here.

The E10 is so inferioir to the D30, it is a joke. When Olympus
changed it to the E20 they left the most dreaded part of the camera
in tact - the noise. How anyone would buy a camera with so much
noise is beyond me. I would not buy that camera if it were $500!!!
I would know in my mind, without a shadow of a doubt - every time I
was taking a picture it was full of noise. It would bother me so
much to know my pictures were inferior becaue of the noise in EVERY
frame!

I couldn't even have the E20 as a backup camera. You take a nice
picture for a portrait and you can't enlarge it, it gets so full of
the noise factor in the highlights. Olympus should be ashamed of
itself. Then they take the E10, keep the same price and up it to an
E20 and just add a high sensor! What a joke on people. Who would
buy such a thing and spend their hard earned cash??? You can get a
Minolta D7 for under a thousand dollars and have a MUCH better
camera!! The D7 is lighter, cheaper and it is made by Minolta. It
has an EXCELLENT lens compared to the E10 I saw.

I don't believe you can even say D30 and E20 in the same sentence.
It almost a sin to do so. The D30 has almost NO noise and you can
change the lenses. There is no dust issue with the D30 either. It
is a real pro's type of camera. The E10 feels like a toy to me.

Have you seen the price of the flash that Olympus has married to
the E20? What a ripoff. You can buy a whole other digicam for that
price!!!

All in all, the D30 is a pro's camera and the E20 is a higher end
high noise ameture's camera. I feel bad for the people that bought
it when I know they could have had a D30 and be so much happier.
Eveytime i see somebody with an E10 hanging around their neck, I
feel like going over to them and just saying "I'm sorry".

Just my opinions though, people should get what they really want.

Pete "

Am I missing something? Is the E-20 as bad as Peter says? Will we
run the risk of loosing our democracy because of the high level of
noise in our pictrures? Should I go out and purchase a D-30 just
to get on their forum to drive people like this nuts? If the "E"
series is not worth $500 than why are people paying $2000 for them?
Peter must know something we don't.

After work I will reread a few reviews to understand what I did
wrong in purchasing an E-20..
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
--
JGB
Click to expand...
--Olympus E-10 (Still tilting at windmills...foolish me!)Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids
 
Thank you Jeff, you have now helped me determine that I need to buy either the D30 or the 1D.

I feel the Canon forum desreved my particular brand of annoyance and argument and Pete is just the person to rip into. I would, of course, spend less time here, but I'm sure you guys will get over it.

What an ignorarnt baffoon he is! Well, if it works for him.

Oh wait, I cant get a D30 or 1D... I jest spent FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS on a flash system! Grrrrr.

(As if I was about to walk out and buy the Canons this minute anyway.)

Keep your chin up Jeff. Stay here where it's comfy-cozy and you only have to put up with MY sh*t.

GageFX
Jeff Morris said:
Last night I responded to a post in the Canon SLR forum. It was
brought to our attention by Derek in this forum. I went to the
Canon forum and read the "D-20 vs E-20" threads he made note of:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1866028

I responded to this thread with a new post.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1874004

At first the responses to my post were cordial then they got nasty:
final post made very heavy claims against the "E" series by Peter
Greg it reads as follows:

"This post is lame. Buy an E10 or E20 and go to the Olympus SLR
forum to talk about it, not here. I don't want to have E10
discussions here.

The E10 is so inferioir to the D30, it is a joke. When Olympus
changed it to the E20 they left the most dreaded part of the camera
in tact - the noise. How anyone would buy a camera with so much
noise is beyond me. I would not buy that camera if it were $500!!!
I would know in my mind, without a shadow of a doubt - every time I
was taking a picture it was full of noise. It would bother me so
much to know my pictures were inferior becaue of the noise in EVERY
frame!

I couldn't even have the E20 as a backup camera. You take a nice
picture for a portrait and you can't enlarge it, it gets so full of
the noise factor in the highlights. Olympus should be ashamed of
itself. Then they take the E10, keep the same price and up it to an
E20 and just add a high sensor! What a joke on people. Who would
buy such a thing and spend their hard earned cash??? You can get a
Minolta D7 for under a thousand dollars and have a MUCH better
camera!! The D7 is lighter, cheaper and it is made by Minolta. It
has an EXCELLENT lens compared to the E10 I saw.

I don't believe you can even say D30 and E20 in the same sentence.
It almost a sin to do so. The D30 has almost NO noise and you can
change the lenses. There is no dust issue with the D30 either. It
is a real pro's type of camera. The E10 feels like a toy to me.

Have you seen the price of the flash that Olympus has married to
the E20? What a ripoff. You can buy a whole other digicam for that
price!!!

All in all, the D30 is a pro's camera and the E20 is a higher end
high noise ameture's camera. I feel bad for the people that bought
it when I know they could have had a D30 and be so much happier.
Eveytime i see somebody with an E10 hanging around their neck, I
feel like going over to them and just saying "I'm sorry".

Just my opinions though, people should get what they really want.

Pete "

Am I missing something? Is the E-20 as bad as Peter says? Will we
run the risk of loosing our democracy because of the high level of
noise in our pictrures? Should I go out and purchase a D-30 just
to get on their forum to drive people like this nuts? If the "E"
series is not worth $500 than why are people paying $2000 for them?
Peter must know something we don't.

After work I will reread a few reviews to understand what I did
wrong in purchasing an E-20..
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Beth,

I am in awe at the number of rude, careless people out there. (I respect Phils forum rules so I well not tell you what I really feel.) As noted, I have no hands on time with the D-30. However, I feel right at home with the 20. I have taken a number of photos, I will post them on Pbase in the next few days.

I just could not get over the tone of this jerks thread, unless he was just flaming to get a rise. For me noise had not been the "E" series biggest problem.

Comments about the E series Lens in some Canon posts make me crazy. Oly spent a lot of time on the design of this baby (lens). One comment that was made was in regard to the fact that the E-20's sensor is not the same physical size as the E-10's. And that the lens produces more CA because it was not designed for the Sony sensor. Is this true?--Jeff Morris
 
What exactly are you trying to do, start a war between boards?

You post in the Canon SLR forum, "wagging your finger" at D30 people, complaining about their tone of messages ON THEIR OWN BOARD (the same happens here, See the threads with the CP5000 and/or G1 / D30.)

Then you come on here with a clear intention to incite people to react to the post that Pete made.

Do you need a hobby or something? (Perhaps photography??)

Why do you care so much what someone else thinks about your camera? Buyer's remorse?--The Vilnius Schoolmaster
 
Dear Gage,

Thanks, I was of the opinion you had the sweetest smelling Sx#t on the forum. I will post some noisey pictures this week. I hate to admit it, but I never posted a photo on Phil's forum before. I will go through his search engine, fuigure out how and post prior to the weekend.--Jeff Morris
 
Jeff Morris said:
... One comment that was made was in regard to the fact that
the E-20's sensor is not the same physical size as the E-10's.
Click to expand...
I don't know if this is a "fact" or not. Phil's review indicates they both have a 2/3" CCD sensor:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse20/

However, since the sensor size remained the same while the resolution increased, it is possible that the reduced pixel size of the E-20 might contribute to some noise compared to the E-10.

As for the lens, Olympus claims it was carefully designed to colimate the extents of the light path to nearly perpendicular to the sensor, something a CCD needs that film doesn't care about. So even a very good lens designed for film that doesn't colimate the light cone may not be useful on a digital camera.

As for the claims, counter-claims, and flames, I'd say leave it be, enjoy what you have in your hands, and go shoot some pictures. There will be differences of opinion as long as there are two people on the earth (or one person with a severe psychiatric disorder).

JKJ
 
Dear Vil,

If you bothered to read my posts (All 350 paragraphs) All I did was respond to a post I read on our forum last night. I got pissed off and wrote a note in the Canon forum. I did nothing any red blooded Oly lover would not do! The fact is I was not flaming, there are a lot of jerks (read rectums) out there.

I can not stand smug people. I watched post after post for two years talk about the finest digital consumer camera on the market the Nikon CP 950, er CP 9XX er CP 9xx etc. Everything was almost as good as the Nikon 9xx.

I did not start this, but damn it, these guys are nasty. The next time I read about a flaim in another forum, I will sit tight and cradle my noisey little E-20. Ah the pain, the pain.--Jeff Morris
 
I think Vil is correct......
You need a hobby other than internet forum board addiction.

Use your cam if you like it, or sell it and get a D30. If your happy with it, then why waste your valuable time flaming and arguing and making petty comparisons? It's unbecoming of you anyway. ;-)
D.
Jeff Morris said:
Dear Vil,

If you bothered to read my posts (All 350 paragraphs) All I did
was respond to a post I read on our forum last night. I got pissed
off and wrote a note in the Canon forum. I did nothing any red
blooded Oly lover would not do! The fact is I was not flaming,
there are a lot of jerks (read rectums) out there.

I can not stand smug people. I watched post after post for two
years talk about the finest digital consumer camera on the market
the Nikon CP 950, er CP 9XX er CP 9xx etc. Everything was almost
as good as the Nikon 9xx.

I did not start this, but damn it, these guys are nasty. The next
time I read about a flaim in another forum, I will sit tight and
cradle my noisey little E-20. Ah the pain, the pain.
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
 
Jeff,

It is quite apparent this fellow doesn't have any clue what he is talking about. To complain so loudly about noise and THEN try to compare a D7 favorably to the E-series ... is pure ignorance. The D7 has as much, if not a tad more, noise than the E-10, and probably compares similarly to the E-20. This is not to mention the other areas in which it is quite inferior (ten bucks says the person has never held one in his hands).

Oh yeah, I love how he talks about the D30 being a "pro's camera" when it neither 1) is marketed as such nor 2) has anywhere near the working pro market penetration as the Nikon D series. It's an advanced amateur's cam that costs about twice as much as the Olympus, and is the next notch above it in the digicam heirarchy. That's all there is to it.--- Dr. G.E-10 FAQ: http://www.tokenasians.com/articles/e10faq.html
 
David M. said:
Jeff Morris said:
Dear Vil,

If you bothered to read my posts (All 350 paragraphs) All I did
was respond to a post I read on our forum last night. I got pissed
off and wrote a note in the Canon forum. I did nothing any red
blooded Oly lover would not do! The fact is I was not flaming,
there are a lot of jerks (read rectums) out there.

I can not stand smug people. I watched post after post for two
years talk about the finest digital consumer camera on the market
the Nikon CP 950, er CP 9XX er CP 9xx etc. Everything was almost
as good as the Nikon 9xx.

I did not start this, but damn it, these guys are nasty. The next
time I read about a flaim in another forum, I will sit tight and
cradle my noisey little E-20. Ah the pain, the pain.
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Use your camera and enjoy it. stay out of shark infested waters. you will always find someone who thinks they are better than you. btw you need a self portrait for the forum. work on that instead of listening to people who have unlimited amounts of money to spend on cameras that will be out dated in a year.--Brian
 
Howdy Jeff,
Jeff Morris said:
Jeff Morris wrote:
I did nothing any red blooded Oly lover would not do!
Click to expand...
Might be some disagreement here... ;-)
Jeff Morris said:
The fact is I was not flaming,
Click to expand...
Perhaps the post description of "trolling" was more accurate.

Try wandering into the Harley shop on Saturday and enthusiastically explaining the advantages of a Japanese bike over their Harleys. Despite your good intentions a friendly discussion regarding the merits of each bike will probably not be the result.

Better to wait unitl they come and ask.

Take care,

-jerry
 
Jeff, how can that be? My sh*t dont stink!

:)

GageFX
Jeff Morris said:
Dear Gage,

Thanks, I was of the opinion you had the sweetest smelling Sx#t on
the forum. I will post some noisey pictures this week. I hate to
admit it, but I never posted a photo on Phil's forum before. I
will go through his search engine, fuigure out how and post prior
to the weekend.
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
 
Jeff,

Who cares what they think? I read the thread that Peter has written, and I laughed it off. Usually people who are insecure about their life/purchases feel better after flaming other products.

Had a good look at his gallery too. Just goes to show... a great camera like the D30 doesn't make anyone a great photographer.
Jeff Morris said:
Last night I responded to a post in the Canon SLR forum. It was
brought to our attention by Derek in this forum. I went to the
Canon forum and read the "D-20 vs E-20" threads he made note of:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1866028

I responded to this thread with a new post.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=1874004

At first the responses to my post were cordial then they got nasty:
final post made very heavy claims against the "E" series by Peter
Greg it reads as follows:

"This post is lame. Buy an E10 or E20 and go to the Olympus SLR
forum to talk about it, not here. I don't want to have E10
discussions here.

The E10 is so inferioir to the D30, it is a joke. When Olympus
changed it to the E20 they left the most dreaded part of the camera
in tact - the noise. How anyone would buy a camera with so much
noise is beyond me. I would not buy that camera if it were $500!!!
I would know in my mind, without a shadow of a doubt - every time I
was taking a picture it was full of noise. It would bother me so
much to know my pictures were inferior becaue of the noise in EVERY
frame!

I couldn't even have the E20 as a backup camera. You take a nice
picture for a portrait and you can't enlarge it, it gets so full of
the noise factor in the highlights. Olympus should be ashamed of
itself. Then they take the E10, keep the same price and up it to an
E20 and just add a high sensor! What a joke on people. Who would
buy such a thing and spend their hard earned cash??? You can get a
Minolta D7 for under a thousand dollars and have a MUCH better
camera!! The D7 is lighter, cheaper and it is made by Minolta. It
has an EXCELLENT lens compared to the E10 I saw.

I don't believe you can even say D30 and E20 in the same sentence.
It almost a sin to do so. The D30 has almost NO noise and you can
change the lenses. There is no dust issue with the D30 either. It
is a real pro's type of camera. The E10 feels like a toy to me.

Have you seen the price of the flash that Olympus has married to
the E20? What a ripoff. You can buy a whole other digicam for that
price!!!

All in all, the D30 is a pro's camera and the E20 is a higher end
high noise ameture's camera. I feel bad for the people that bought
it when I know they could have had a D30 and be so much happier.
Eveytime i see somebody with an E10 hanging around their neck, I
feel like going over to them and just saying "I'm sorry".

Just my opinions though, people should get what they really want.

Pete "

Am I missing something? Is the E-20 as bad as Peter says? Will we
run the risk of loosing our democracy because of the high level of
noise in our pictrures? Should I go out and purchase a D-30 just
to get on their forum to drive people like this nuts? If the "E"
series is not worth $500 than why are people paying $2000 for them?
Peter must know something we don't.

After work I will reread a few reviews to understand what I did
wrong in purchasing an E-20..
--
Jeff Morris
Click to expand...
 
Jerry,

Please tell me you aren't speaking from experience ;-)

Well said, though...
Jerry Russell said:
Try wandering into the Harley shop on Saturday and enthusiastically
explaining the advantages of a Japanese bike over their Harleys.
Despite your good intentions a friendly discussion regarding the
merits of each bike will probably not be the result.

Better to wait unitl they come and ask.

Take care,

-jerry
Click to expand...
--Best Regards...doug1tx
 
Dear David,

As I read posts from E-20 users that also have E-10's I get the feeling that they love their camera. The E-20 might be a bit noisier than the E-10. Of what I understand more tightly packed sensor can be noisier.

Frankly I have to post pics on Pbase and get a number of fresh pics printed.

Do you fellow E er's remember when we would line up in the first grade and whisper a message to the person next to us. By the time the message arrived at the end it did not resemble the origional message. I have learned my lesson. I was not trolling on purpose. I responded to a message about E baiting and posting a message on their forum. It changed as the mob grew. I still feel the heat. (Frankly I'm not sorry, just supprised that the Conon SLR forum has it's share of snobs.)

Yes, I might have hit a nerve with a few comments about an out of date sensor or Canon glass. However, I attempted to be thoughtfull and respectful. As the threads poored in the origional message got lost in the translation and I became an evil B.O.D!

Regards,--Jeff Morris
 
Brian Cox said:
Use your camera and enjoy it. stay out of shark infested waters.
you will always find someone who thinks they are better than you.
btw you need a self portrait for the forum. work on that instead of
listening to people who have unlimited amounts of money to spend on
cameras that will be out dated in a year.
Click to expand...
A D30 costs about $2200 now. That is hardly an unlimited amount of money. Plenty of people in this forum spent more on their E-10s which are now worth much less than they paid for them. Such is life in the digital camera world.

I am not sure why Jeff has such a bug up his ..., but your advice is good, shame you had to end it with a snide remark.

BTW FWIW, I think Peter Gregg's post was over the top. He is equally scathing about Canon's flash system though.
 
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