Sony vs Canon.....

five5pho said:

Do you think that the introduction of the new sony DSLR cam with a
full line of zeiss lenses and a reasonable made body(900$) IS what
the market needs to finaly bring the prices down considrerably?
I have a feeling that it will.Although Canon has the lead I think
Sony just made a Powerfull statement!
10 + mp under 1000$!
Zeiss optics!
anti shake!
anti dust!
Allthough I would love to buy a 5d or 1 series body now something
tells me to wait and see what is going to happen by september!

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If you need a tool to do a job you buy it right away. If you don't need it you can wait.

--

'Silence! What is all this insolence? You will find yourself in gladiator school vewy quickly with wotten behaviour like that.'

(nt)

TKO72 said:

TKO72 said:

But I know what you're saying, that overall they can't compete with Canon's overall loyalty by the pros. But let me tell you a bit of Canon's success with the pros: In the late 80's and early 90's, Nikon ruled the pro market with their F series cameras. Canon was considered the upstart company. But Canon put lots of money, not only in R&D, but also support for pros. During every major sporting event, you'd have a full tent set up with Canon technicians and sales guys giving free lens and body cleanings, tune-ups, and loaner lenses. They'd have special events, free food and drinks, and really supported their own. They out-classed Nikon in this area. Slowly, Nikon guys stopped having a narrow minded view that Nikon was somehow innately supperior, gave Canon a chance, and many switched. I know, I was there!! Minolta, was a joke, not a tent or a rep or a technician in sight. But I did get to test out lots of free equipment when they came out from the local rep, as I was the only pro sports guy in town...... I picked Minolta because like many photographer's who had a high demand for wireless flash (Minolta invention) and high flash sync and really good prime lenses. I sort of fell into pro sports, but Minolta got the job done. So did Pentax.

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Actually, Nikon had done much of the same thing in the early 60s in order to rest the "Pro's 35mm" mantle from Leica. Even in the early 70s, when I bought into the Canon F-1 system, Canon was heavily pushing support to pros.

This really points to why Nikon and then Canon gained the professional reputation they have. It certainly isn't as though Pentax and especially Minolta haven't been able to provide the products. It's more that Minolta and Pentax never seemed to be fully committed to the proposition of being professional level systems. Even back in the 70s, Minolta had their XM system and Pentax had their LX system--either was a worthy opponent to the Nikon f2 and the Canon F-1.

But neither Minolta nor Pentax provided the level of commitment to professional support that would make a professional feel comfortable committing his career to their systems. The same will be true of Sony. Is Sony going to get into the game with both feet?

--
RDKirk
'TANSTAAFL: The only unbreakable rule in photography.'

You'll wait a looooong time to see a full frame from Sony when you can have it now in the 5D.

--
'I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated.'
-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/

And Sony isn't that big!

Sony never delivers the top dog in terms of features and performance and this will be no different! The only product I liked that Sony came out with was the F707 but that was purely for the image quality!

Beyond this, I would like to see some proof that Sony has great products because I don't feel they do and I know I'm not alone!

Oh and Nikon has pushed Canon in to the perfect position to minimize Sony's impact on their market segment... Think about it, we're on the verge of a $1500 Full Frame Camera and a Canon with Spot Metering in the Rebel Class for around $500!

Both Nikon and Canon will deliver these bodies low cost bodies and Sony will realize why they're #1 and #2 in the market... Besides, no pro or seasoned amatuer with a decent setup is going to take Sony seriously it will only be gear heads that sell their system at the thought of a new higher MP camera for less money!

five5pho said:

Sony is a BIG company,make no mistake about it,and this cam is only
the prosumer model!
I think canon IS in trouble! (in a way)
Sony is not Nikon,is something much more powerfull,has tons of
money and in this case minolta s experience.
Btw Im a canon user I do not plan to swich easily but I think this
is Good news for All!
What nikon can t do Sony will!!!
--
http://www.pahountis.gr

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--



'The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it shall not deter me.' -- Abraham Lincoln

Something that needs to be addressed here. Nikon and Canon has been able to do what they do because of all of the 35mm companies, they have been putting out high end camera. The rest didn't where as some of them focused more on the medium format system, which answers that question to why Nikon and Canon has been so succesful.

It's the same difference if Canon and Nikon tried to enter in the medium format field some years back before the digital craze. It'd be a difficult one because of the well already established medium format companies. Now if Nikon and Canon were serious about making medium format, then it would be a different story. This leads me to my next point, no other companies who made or make 35 mm cameras tried to establish themselves in the higher end 35mm system. Sony seems to be the first that will try to do this. I think that they can. As a matter of fact, if Sony is serious I know that they can.

You see, you aren't looking at the bigger picture here. All that you and others are looking at is the already established old school Nikon and Canon users who already have glass. That's cool, but these people aren't forever. There is a new generation out here now and there is a new generati0on on the way, to add to this, there are those who aren't really dedicated to a system, they are just floating around, if giving a good highend system that can be affordable as well be flexible, then this is going to but N & C in a position that they have never been in before. And from what I'm seeing, it's going to happen. Plus I'm seeing Nikon and Canon users who are intruigued and tempted to switch.

I can easily see Sony pro sports journalist users standing next to Canon and Nikon.

RDKirk said:

Let's remember that the demise of Minolta also left an orphaned
market segment of current Minolta owners and that percentage of
future purchasers who would have bought Minolta. Sony's effort may
end up taking no more than the share Minolta would have had anyway.
Most likely, they will grab customers who would not have purchased
either Nikon or Canon.

A large part of the reason people buy a DRebel or a D70 is NOT from
a logical comparison of their features. The entry-level DSLR
purchaser generally isn't that cognizant of the differences.
That's even true of most of the participants on this forum, as
witnessed by the constant "what should I buy" questions. They buy
Canon and Nikon because those are names with strong market
influence gained from their premier lines. It's like choosing to
buy a lesser model Mercedes instead of a higher model Ford--the
brand itself has solid credibility which the uncognizant buyer
hopes trickles down to the lesser models.

Can Sony trade on its brand recognition in other ares to steal a
significant market share from Canon and Nikon from people who are
buying based on brand rather than a logical comparison of features?
That's a tremendous question without any real answer as of yet.

--
RDKirk
'TANSTAAFL: The only unbreakable rule in photography.'

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--
http://www.legacys-photo.com

Minolta and Tamron 11-18, 18-70, 18-200, 17-35 2.8-4, 28-75 2.8 are the same lenses. Co-designed by the two companies.

Best guesses are glass is minolta, plastic bits are tamron. Tamron gets great lenses out of the deal, minolta gets to make glass and sell glass to every mount of camera without people noticing much.

So if you have say the tamron 28-75 F2.8, and like it, well now you know how nice minolta glass is, even on a consumer lens.

--
Way to go Sony! You didn't Blow it up!

Now, about those Zeiss Lenses..... Manual Focus Manual Focus Manual Focus.... AF in
Manual mode doesn't cut.

semorg said:

I don't believe the Sony Alpha will have much impact.

I wish they had come up with this camera 2 years ago.

I admire Sony for doing it, but I am wondering which market they
are going after?

Most pros or advanced amateurs are on Canon and a few on Nikon and
I am not sure how many of them are going to drop their existing
systems to move to Alpha.

Most newcomers to DSLR have stayed away for price and why should
they buy the sony with all the expensive lenses when they can get
canon or even nikon. Digital Rebel kit or Nikon's d50 is at a right
price point and canon can always reduce it to crush Sony.

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In calendar 2005, Canon held a 53.3 percent share in the global digital SLR market, followed by Nikon with 28.3 percent, according to research firm IDC. In the overall digital camera market, Canon had a 17.2 percent share and Sony 15.0 percent. Quote: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6080332.html

Meaning that on every 1.8 Canon DSLR there’s 1 Nikon – hey, that is more than just a few!!!

That aside, Sony is close to Canon in general digital camera market, and considering that Sony had no DSLR, it is kind of obvious that they have more P&S cameras out there.

I guess that is their major market at the moment – Sony consumer/prosumer owners. Yeah, many of them will stay true to their brand of choice. No compatibility between Sony DSLR and P&S? Shame, but guess what, why should they go for Canon or Nikon – no compatibility there as well. At the end of the day, their preference for the brand will decide. Guess one of reasons lot of people are buying Sony P&S is simply that – it’s a Sony, and they already have some Sony in their houses. Let’s say average John (not many Joes here in New Zealand) wants to go digital? There he goes, look there’s a photo shop, what do they have – Pentax, never heard (even MS Word spell check doesn’t know Pentax!!!), Nikon, think grandpa had one of those, Canon… they are making some photocopiers I think and… look, it’s a Sony! My Sony TV works fine and my son’s stereo is so loud. Yeah. They are good.

No, really. They’ll do well… enough. I’m not expecting they’ll reach Canon or Nikon market share any time soon, but they’ll stay in the game.

--
Martin Tony Surovcek
icq:140820372
http://www.n3.sk

Legacys_Quest7 said:

Something that needs to be addressed here. Nikon and Canon has been
able to do what they do because of all of the 35mm companies, they
have been putting out high end camera. The rest didn't where as
some of them focused more on the medium format system, which
answers that question to why Nikon and Canon has been so succesful.

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That's exactly what I did address in the very post you're responding to.

Legacys_Quest7 said:

This leads me to
my next point, no other companies who made or make 35 mm cameras
tried to establish themselves in the higher end 35mm system.

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I said that.

Legacys_Quest7 said:

Sony seems to be the first that will try to do this.

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That can't be determined by anything they've actually done so far. And, by the way, Minolta and Pentax HAVE introduced full-fledged professional-level systems before (Minolta with the XM, Pentax with the LX). They failed, however, to follow through on them with professional support and continued development.

The first thing Sony will have to do is release a genuine professional-level (read: durability) DSLR to go along with those high-priced lenses. Most professionals are less concerned with features than with durability (notice that Canon and Nikon's top-level cameras have never been their most feature-laden cameras).

They will also have to expand the lens line. Even pros who don't need the extremes every day feel more comfortable with a system if the extremes are at least available for rent. That means Sony will also have to push sales to rental companies around the world.

They will have to make themselves available to professionals at major sports events. They will have to put a professional-services program in place with a minimum turnaround time.

Legacys_Quest7 said:

I think that they can. As a matter of fact, if Sony is serious ....

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That, of course, is the big "if" that I've already discussed.

--
RDKirk
'TANSTAAFL: The only unbreakable rule in photography.'