Sony Alpha!

I've got nothing clever to say about this. I just can't believe that this news passes unheeded by this forum. I expected a frenzy!

Are we really so uninterested? Or is it just the gloomy feeling, finally coming to terms with the fact that the new 5D really hasn't got "Minolta" on it.
And Anti-Shake has become "Super Steady Shot". Really. Sounds so video games.

Still, looks to be a fine camera!

Does look interesting...would need to hear more, but it seems to use Minolta flash and remote release which would be some help. Also the menu system looks pretty familiar.

I like the range of the new 24-120mm Carl Zeiss lens (is that related to the R1 lens)...but prices still make sticking with the A2 pretty appealing for the moment.

Thanks for the heads up...

I think I would be more excited if the AS system (I prefer to call it that!) had been more enhanced than it has.

Yes, it is great to add an anti-dust feature, but I feel an opportunity has been lost to do more.....

A mobile sensor could be used to replace shift movement in lenses, and, since it would be the sensor that moved, ALL lenses would become shift lenses.

Now, this would be a very real benefit, since shift is the most useful camera movement in large format and technical cameras. For instance, manually shifting the sensor to the bottom of the image circle and LEAVING it there, is exactly the same as rising front, and therefore the means to prevent or reduce converging verticals.

If "manual sensor shift" were implemented as I suggest, the Nav button (left-right-up-down) would be the obvious way to control it.

It would NOT conflict with AS, because shifts are employed with cameras on tripods -- that's when AS is best turned off.

Furthermore...

No viewfinder indication of the re-framing would need be provided. Near instant review in the LCD is more than good enough for the kind of architectural work that lends itself to the use of shifts.

I thought of this some time ago, perhaps because of my Large Format background. I am just amazed no-one else seems to have had the same idea......

....or perhaps they have.....

...........and there are problems I don't know about....... ??
--
Regards,
Baz

The response was more on the DSLR forum.

it looks like a nice camera. A follow-on to the 5D, incorporating KM's venerable AS technology and lenses, as well as some great Minolta features such as their wireless flash (cool).

And- then adding sony's 10mp CCD and processing horsepower. The report said that they did a nice job on the packaging as well.

The only downside may be that its high ISO performance may be a little shy of the Canons (350/30D). But, time will tell.
--

Hi Baz,

I dunno the technical stuff and have never used a shift lens or large format camera with shifts.... but I would guess that greater sensor travel needed would require lenses that covered a greater area than the sensor plus anti-shake travel area currently covered/allowed for. This might not be such a problem for the old Minolta SLR lenses, but presumably would present problems for the new dslr range of Sony lenses. Meanwhile, I would guess space inside for such sensor travel might also be a problem for this pretty compact dslr. But it's a neat idea.

Meanwhile, there is always Image/Transform/Distort in Photoshop which sort of does the job after the event....one of my favourite tools!

Cheers,

Paul

What do you expect from a company that has it's roots in video cameras.

Let's hope that Sony can marry the Mind of Minolta with Sony's video horsepower (just so long as they don't come out with a beheemith like the 7XX series they have!!)

Gideon01 said:

I've got nothing clever to say about this. I just can't believe
that this news passes unheeded by this forum. I expected a frenzy!
Are we really so uninterested? Or is it just the gloomy feeling,
finally coming to terms with the fact that the new 5D really hasn't
got "Minolta" on it.
And Anti-Shake has become "Super Steady Shot". Really. Sounds so
video games.

Still, looks to be a fine camera!

Click to expand...

--

'Until the lion writes his own story, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.'

Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.

Forget the manual, this is all you need for the Ax camera
http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq

Paul W said:

Hi Baz,

I dunno the technical stuff and have never used a shift lens or
large format camera with shifts.... but I would guess that greater
sensor travel needed would require lenses that covered a greater
area than the sensor plus anti-shake travel area currently
covered/allowed for. This might not be such a problem for the old
Minolta SLR lenses, but presumably would present problems for the
new dslr range of Sony lenses. Meanwhile, I would guess space
inside for such sensor travel might also be a problem for this
pretty compact dslr. But it's a neat idea.

Click to expand...

It happens that the maximum excursion of the sensor is currently quite a lot, just to make AS work as well as it does. I cannot tell you exactly what it is in millimetres, but it is not to be sniffed at! I was surprised to see how big it was.

Indeed, I am pretty sure there is sufficient "jiggle-depth" to provide a useful displacement of the lens axis without having to do more than add the manual control.

Naturally it assumes an adequate image circle for the shifted area to be covered..... which applies no less to AS of course.......[??]

But you are quite right. No "lens" movements, no matter how achieved, are any use without an image circle big enough to use them.
--
Regards,
Baz

Looks like a really nice camera, but the big question for me is it worth $1500 to get it and outfit it with the 18-200 lens to give it the same functionality as the A2? But then you still have no video, no intervalometer, no live histogram, and a LOT bigger camera to lug around (er I mean mostly leave at home). The biggest reason to get better high ISO capablity is to get the kids without flash, but the F10 can do that.

The other killer for me is that if I'm going to spend the money on a DSLR, I need a really sophisticated MLU to take the mirror shake out of the picture when attached to my microscope. The simple delay timer MLU is not acceptable for moving subjects.

I'm still watching the deals on the 7d hoping that with some time, the bodies will approach $400. I'll snag that and wait for the next alpha.

--
Steve W

I am certainly interestred in this baby. Anti-shake and anti-dust - two great features. I was thinking about an Olympus E500 or Canon 350D . I'll wait to see reviews of production cameras and sample pictures before taking the plunge but this could well be the right move for me.

--
When you've got a moment, have a look at my site:
http://www.wrightphotos.co.uk

Winner of the South West Rural section of the BBC's Picture of Britain Competition.

Greg

Barrie Davis said:

It happens that the maximum excursion of the sensor is currently
quite a lot, just to make AS work as well as it does. I cannot tell
you exactly what it is in millimetres, but it is not to be sniffed
at! I was surprised to see how big it was.

Click to expand...

I saw a transparent plastic model of the 7D (the same that you saw?), and I would estimate the amplitude to be no less than 1 cm. That is a LOT.

Barrie Davis said:

Naturally it assumes an adequate image circle for the shifted area
to be covered..... which applies no less to AS of course.......[??]

Click to expand...

Exactly.

--
Vegard
FCAS Member #99
Canon 350D, April 2005; Konica Minolta A2, May 2004
A1/A2 FAQ: http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq

Vegard said:

Barrie Davis said:

It happens that the maximum excursion of the sensor is currently
quite a lot, just to make AS work as well as it does. I cannot tell
you exactly what it is in millimetres, but it is not to be sniffed
at! I was surprised to see how big it was.

Click to expand...

I saw a transparent plastic model of the 7D (the same that you
saw?), and I would estimate the amplitude to be no less than 1 cm.
That is a LOT.

Click to expand...

Well, if I may be permitted the luxury of arguing against myself..
[I am CAPABLE of such an exercise, Vegard. You will know what I mean. ;-) ;-)]

I did see it, and it certainly IS a lot. And I also suspect that it is a lot more than is actually available from the anti-shake mechanisms as fitted into cameras, worst luck!

In other words, what we saw was possibly no more than an exaggerated demonstration model, built to make the point about the technology itself, and make it strongly and visually to the gentlemen of the press etc.

Indeed, if the amplitude WAS a maximum of 5mm in any one direction direction (1 cm total) the amount of camera shake that could be dealt with would be huge -- the equivalent of 5mm of blur at the sensor, no less.

Come to think of it........

I don't think I have EVER produced 5mm of blur at the image from handholding, without having deliberately induced it as an effect -- the whizz-blur in the back of a panned shot for instance...

Indeed, the AS system as employed in KMs last offerings was always considered good for only two stops of blur relief: that is blur only four times as l-o-n-g on the sensor as would be invisible WITHOUT camera shake suppression -- when viewed in a 10x8" print, say.

So I don't think we are looking at the AS systems regularly delivering excursions of 10mm/2 in any cameras we have owned, even if the mechanisms fitted were the same as those demonstrated in the 'out of body' experiences.

On the other hand, the demonstration mechanisms do (did?) exist.. so we know they can be made.

And we know that the maximum shift of conventional FF35mm shift lenses is not massive. The one I have had most experience of was the 28mm NikkorPC lens -- it had a maximum of 11mm in any one direction......

..... and that was on FF35mm.

A rather smaller amount of axial shift would be its equal on APS sized sensors.
--
Regards,
Baz

I have to agree with your comments Steve, I have been lurking on the Sony DSLR forum for a while now. The news and specifications are out, I was just thinking, what does the Alpha do for me? So far the answer is not too much, use my Max 7 lenses on a digital body, ok, I can still get all my favorite films even the high ISO ones and have a high dynamic range high resolution scanner - no advantage. 10MP sensor - my A2 close to that I can easily get 20X24 prints from it and that is the biggest I print, better shot to shot performance - maybe better than my A2 - not as good as my Max 7.

I am curious about the BIONZ image processor the, KM 7D reproduced wonderful skin tones for the portrait photographers, if you don't beleive me go to photo.net and look for a photographer named Alex Lee, he switched to a 7D and did some wonderful work. I'm also curious about the DRO feature in the Alpha, what does it do to the image quality and my settings? I only use the manual mode in my A2 and my Max 7 because I don't want the image messed with. Just to end my rant as a KM A2 owner thinking about wanting a DSLR, is the Alpha 100 the one I'll buy, probably not for the majority of what I want to photograph, I need a high ISO system, encouraging interview with one of the Sony/KM exec's though for me was their interest in a system that would perform in low light wint no flash. Just my responce to this thread on th KM forum and a bit of venting - Thanks Sony for introducing a DSLR - that won't do much more than my A2!!

as Feri would say

Cheers!!

--
Lens cap? What lens cap?

I don't have that pain in the gut, gotta have one feeling over this new Alpha. The specs look like it's a step up from the final Minolta incantation but nothing earth shaking. I don't see any battery grip accessory mentioned anywhere? That is something that I truly love about my A2. That's quite a large chunk of cash to plunk down to buy into the system. I just don't know that I'm ready to spend that much for how much of a real world improvement in my equipment.
--
Mashuga
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mashuga/
http://www.fotolog.com/mashuga/

Baz,

I hadn't thought of shifting the sensor. Excellent idea!! You're right that the AS might have to be disengaged, probably to many variables to keep the sensor moving to eliminate camera shake with the sensor angled.

I'm don't think using the review lcd will work. First, not all architecture shots are done using a tripod. Come to NY and see how many people are taking pictures of tall buildings or bridges, hand held. Second, an LCD in bright day light can often be useless. No, a live preview is needed and preferably one with grid-lines on the focusing screen in an evf protected from the sun glare.

I know the digicam world is moving towards mega-zoom with smaller sensors but a t/s sensor on an A2 body would be glorious. A guy can dream, can't he?

Marc

--
All shots are 30D unless otherwise noted
http://www.pbase.com/mbaumser

“Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin.

Steve,
You are correct that $1500 to emulate the A2 is probably not worth it.

And the A2 is well worth emulating. But the D-slr can do things a digi cam can't. (For fairness let me state now, that's there are a lot of things a digi CAN do that a Dslr can't. Try holding a d-slr over you head and framing a shot. not going to happen)

First, an 18-135 would be give you the equivalent focal length of the A2. Out to 200 would be the equivalent of the A2 with an ACT-100. But here is the first advantage. The A2 can give you 200mm or 350. A zoom on a dslr gives you all the focal lengths in between as well.

Dslr, give you new and exciting ways to spend your money. LOL ultra wides and ulta teles. I can go from (35mm equiv) 16mm to 420mm and I've only begun to spend!!

But the real advantage is focus speed. Shots that I just couldn't get before (or would require planning and forethought) are now point and shoot simple. Nature shots. Actions shots. My kids playing.

Dslr is not some panacea. There are plenty of times I wish I had a smaller, lighter versatile digi (like the Ax). They are both excellent creative tools each with there own distinct set of advantages and disadvantages. And you need to decide not if it's worth the money to emulate what you have but what it's worth to you to have those distinct advantages that a Dslr can offer.

Marc

Steve West said:

Looks like a really nice camera, but the big question for me is it
worth $1500 to get it and outfit it with the 18-200 lens to give it
the same functionality as the A2? But then you still have no
video, no intervalometer, no live histogram, and a LOT bigger
camera to lug around (er I mean mostly leave at home). The biggest
reason to get better high ISO capablity is to get the kids without
flash, but the F10 can do that.

The other killer for me is that if I'm going to spend the money on
a DSLR, I need a really sophisticated MLU to take the mirror shake
out of the picture when attached to my microscope. The simple
delay timer MLU is not acceptable for moving subjects.

I'm still watching the deals on the 7d hoping that with some time,
the bodies will approach $400. I'll snag that and wait for the
next alpha.

--
Steve W

Click to expand...

--
All shots are 30D unless otherwise noted
http://www.pbase.com/mbaumser

“Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin.

No question that a DSLR can provide an excellent performance increase for many aspects of photography. And that is why I just can't quite stop thinking about a 7d or the alpha. The first photos from the alpha are coming out, and it looks like Sony and KM have made an excellent upgrade.

I think the way I'd go would be:

1. 7d if walmart drops the price another $100 (to $599) otherwise alpha.

2. 18-200 zoom as the main workhorse. Many see this only as a vacation lens, but I see it giving the functionality of the A2 and making lens changing a rare event. I don't want to carry around lenses. This would make the package smaller than the A2 + ACT 100!

3. also getting the 500mm f/8 reflex--yeah, it's slow, but it's very compact, and it will reach out there.

4. it looks like the 3600HSD flash and remote cord will move to the alpha and 7d from the A2 which helps a lot. If I get the 7d, then the battery will move over too which saves another $70.

--
Steve W

Barrie Davis said:

Well, if I may be permitted the luxury of arguing against myself..
[I am CAPABLE of such an exercise, Vegard. You will know what I
mean. ;-) ;-)]

Click to expand...

Indeed I do! :-D

Barrie Davis said:

I did see it, and it certainly IS a lot. And I also suspect that it
is a lot more than is actually available from the anti-shake
mechanisms as fitted into cameras, worst luck!

Click to expand...

That was my suspicion too. But -- I have several buts. The first one is that "someone" said it was real. Could have been the salesman, could have been someone in this forum. (Could have been worthless...)

Barrie Davis said:

Indeed, if the amplitude WAS a maximum of 5mm in any one direction
direction (1 cm total) the amount of camera shake that could be
dealt with would be huge -- the equivalent of 5mm of blur at the
sensor, no less.

Click to expand...

If we add 10mm to the APS-C sensor, what do we get? FF, more or less. The new Leica lenses for the A100 are all FF. No explanation given. Then again (I too am capable of arguing against myself... ;-) ) more or less all the new Sigma and Tamron lenses for KM are DC lenses, making my first argument here moot?

But I think I have a better but:

Barrie Davis said:

I don't think I have EVER produced 5mm of blur at the image from
handholding

Click to expand...

Because you're a photographer, and there are things you know cannot be done. But have you ever actually tried shooting hand-held with an 800mm?

Barrie Davis said:

So I don't think we are looking at the AS systems regularly
delivering excursions of 10mm/2 in any cameras we have owned,
even if the mechanisms fitted were the same as those demonstrated
in the 'out of body' experiences.

Click to expand...

I've now lost count of whom I'm arguing witth or against, but my initial impression was "does that really work?"

--
Vegard
FCAS Member #99
Canon 350D, April 2005; Konica Minolta A2, May 2004
A1/A2 FAQ: http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq

marc baumser said:

Baz,
I hadn't thought of shifting the sensor. Excellent idea!! You're
right that the AS might have to be disengaged, probably to many
variables to keep the sensor moving to eliminate camera shake with
the sensor angled.

Click to expand...

Angled? I don't think the sensor is ever angled, is it?

My understanding is that the sensor is held strictly normal (90 degrees) to lens axis in all present implementations of Anti shake. For shifts, not tilts, normal is what is needed.

marc baumser said:

I'm don't think using the review lcd will work. First, not all
architecture shots are done using a tripod. Come to NY and see how
many people are taking pictures of tall buildings or bridges, hand
held. Second, an LCD in bright day light can often be useless. No,
a live preview is needed and preferably one with grid-lines on the
focusing screen in an evf protected from the sun glare.

Click to expand...

You are quite right that viewfinder indication of shifted framing would be preferable to review on the LCD. But, if it's a choice between no viewfinder indication, or NO SHIFT AT ALL, I'll take the shift without viewfinder indication, thanks.

After all....A useful facility is still useful, even if the perfect implementation never happens!

marc baumser said:

I know the digicam world is moving towards mega-zoom with smaller
sensors but a t/s sensor on an A2 body would be glorious. A guy
can dream, can't he?

Click to expand...

A sensor that shifts (or can be shifted ) in a plane normal to the lens axis has four uses that I can see...

1) Anti shake -- [Got it now. Thanks very much.]

2) Anti dust -- [Got it now in more than one make of camera. Thanks very much.]

3) Re-positionable imaging area providing lens shift equivalent -- [Not got yet. How about it?]

And the fourth?

Well, a re-positionable sensor would also provide a means to take still life type pictures with the sensor in more than one position, it being moved between shots whilst the camera is held still. This would provide images larger, and with more pixels, than the sensor can provide in one hit.

Such multiple images would be ideal for stitching, since they would not need so much correction as conventional stitch shots where the whole camera and lens combination is moved.

It happens that this idea is not original.

Sinar provided this option with one of their Large Format digital solutions about 5 years back. A standard MF back was pushed into each corner of the 5x4 frame, in sequence one after the other. Sinar software stitched them together afterwards.

See "4 shot Still Life Mode" on this page from Sinar website....

http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/digital/sinarback2.php

Unfortunately, if that blue type is meant to indicate a link, it isn't working. ;-(

[Hmmmm ...Sinar's website is a bit lacking in pictures, considering their products are supposed to be used for taking them!!]

Anyway, and like I say..............

I think there is a lot more you can do with an Anti Shake style sensor than jiggle it about to get the dust off !!

To quote Mark.....

marc baumser said:

A guy can dream, can't he?

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
Baz

Barrie Davis said:

Sinar provided this option with one of their Large Format digital
solutions about 5 years back. A standard MF back was pushed into
each corner of the 5x4 frame, in sequence one after the other.
Sinar software stitched them together afterwards.

See "4 shot Still Life Mode" on this page from Sinar website....

http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/digital/sinarback2.php

Click to expand...

Seems I should have referred to "Macroscan mode" NOT "4 Shot Still Life".

Sorry about that -- (still no pictures 'though. I'm sorry about that too.)
--
Regards,
Baz

Barrie Davis said:

marc baumser said:

Baz,
I hadn't thought of shifting the sensor. Excellent idea!! You're
right that the AS might have to be disengaged, probably to many
variables to keep the sensor moving to eliminate camera shake with
the sensor angled.

Click to expand...

Angled? I don't think the sensor is ever angled, is it?

My understanding is that the sensor is held strictly normal (90
degrees) to lens axis in all present implementations of Anti shake.
For shifts, not tilts, normal is what is needed.

Click to expand...

I'm just taking your idea on step further. Why not a small change in the "film" plane?

Marc
--
All shots are 30D unless otherwise noted
http://www.pbase.com/mbaumser

“Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin.