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Are Pentax and Nikon handicaped ?

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Mr Ralf

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Well, it seems to me that a camera producer who depends on the sensors of other manufacturers is indeed handicaped. Pentax now is forced to use an old 6MP-Sensor again in their brand-new DSLRs. They are stuck on 6MP as a result. Though new, it makes their new product look old.

Not that 6MP alone make those new Cams a failure, but it looks akward when at the same time a Sony R1 offers 10MP, and even Compact Cams offer 10MP right now.

In their official announcement, KM mentioned this as one of the most important reasons, why they sold their camera business to Sony. They don't wanna depend on the mercy of others.

And who knows what the next generation of entry models from Canon and Sony will offer...

Greetings

Mr Ralf
 
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. You say that the 6 MP sensor in the new Pentax models make the models a failure (highly debatable under any circumstances), yet you then say it's not the 6 MP sensor "alone" that makes the new cameras a failure.

Then what iis it?

Incidentally, comparing P&S sensors to APS sized sensors is pointless.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
There is not much difference in resolution between 6 and 8MP. Lens quality will make a bigger difference.

For high ISO use, the 6MP sony sensor is great. Pentax has also been the most successful in implementing it. If you want better high ISO performance, you need to go full frame.
 
I think the continued marketing of 6MP dSLRs has more to due with attempting to maintain some stratification among models within the brand. If Nikon puts out a D70 replacement with 10MP, it would likely put a serious dent in sales of the D200. Pentax has the same issue with their pending 10MP dSLR.

Olympus doesn't really have a current upgrade path, so moving to 8MP on entry level bodies doesn't cut into current sales. Same goes for Sony with th R1. Canon is the only manufacturer with both an entry and mid level body at 8MP. With Canon though, the RebelXT is so clearly inferior to the 30D on many other levels than megapixels that differentiation is obvious.

Basically, I don't think it has anything to do with being tied to Sony sensors (BTW, the 10MP Nikon D200 uses a Sony Sensor) and more to do with marketing strategies.

--
Nick
 
The D200 blows away the 20D & 30D! It has some amazing features, on top of that has more rez, so where is your argument now?

Nikon also makes a 12Mpix D2X.

Currently no one else has a 10 Mpix camera out! So where is Canon's great sensor fab?

--
http://www.johnk.smugmug.com
 
In reality, economy of scale in manufacturing always apply. I see the 6MP in the new Pentax body not much of an anology for supporting such view as stated. Pentax's current DS/DL/DS2/DL2 are all priced too much when compared to like of D50/D70s and other competetion. Its viable business to juice further from the same basic chassis. This new package is perfectly alright. The day when every new model must trump all previous model no longer applied. As we near a pleateau of performance where diminishing return can be easily seen. I simply do not see at the price the new body are asking for , that they are anything bad for the market. It certainly would fulfill Pentax need to have an entru level model that can competet in the market. As for the needd for Megapixel, isn't it already announced that a 10 MP body will come around this fall

Sourcing parts from others , even your own competetion is nothing new in cutting edge consumer and tech products. The days when a Mfr can claim to made everything inhouse is no longer a real viable business model.

--
Franka
 
 
Handicaped, more like "hamstrung" is definitive. I puchased my first Nikon in Japan at the PX in 1954, best the world had to offer at that time, including Leica, Contax, Rollie etc., too bad they didn't continue along the R&D lines they entered with.

IMO Nikon has really missed the boat in not developing their own sensors. Any time a manufacture is TOTALLY dependent on another such as Sony, it is a matter of time until this alliance is breeched. Now Sony holds all the trump cards and in time will upgrade their own offerings at the expense of Nikon. In addition, Nikon is out in left field because new, inovative sensors are not readily available for their applications, they are at the mercy of Sony.

As we stated often in marketing..." You never call in Colonel Sanders to "babysit" your chickens"!
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.
 
I agree to a point, but Pentax and Samsung have partnered up so we can only hope that down the line Pentax will be free of the Sony "handcuffs".

The question is, what are Nikon goingt to do? Will Sony continue to sell CCDs to them? Will Sony maybe sell a crippled CCD? There are other sensor makers out there too, but are they any good (bar Canon). Some folk seemt o be thinking that Pentax will include the Kodak 10mp sensor in there D upgrade later this year.
 
quote.................

The sensor used in the D2H is Nikon's first in-house designed sensor and based on a totally new 'JFET LBCAST' technology which appears to be similar to CMOS but capable of outputting data at a far higher speed.
unquote............................

http://www.europe-nikon.com/pressreleasedetail.aspx?countryId=18&languageId=19&pressReleaseId=128
quote...........

On July 22nd 2003, Nikon announced the D2H, a fourth-generation digital SLR camera incorporating a new sensor known as the LBCAST. With this announcement, Nikon has joined the esteemed ranks of the few digital camera manufacturers who are capable of the design and manufacture of high-speed, high-quality image sensors
..........unquote
--
360 minutes from the prime meridian. (-5375min, 3.55sec) 1093' above sea level.
 
Canon is so intimidated by the D200 that it is getting out of the camera business. hehe

--
Appreciating the gifts you have been given is the blessing.
 
nikonians said:
The D200 blows away the 20D & 30D! It has some amazing features,
on top of that has more rez, so where is your argument now?

Nikon also makes a 12Mpix D2X.

Currently no one else has a 10 Mpix camera out! So where is Canon's
great sensor fab?
Click to expand...
The only comment I can make is that blind, uninformed brand followers like you are what some manufacturers are banking on. Fortunately for us consumers most people seem to form their own opinions based on real information which helps to keep the manufacturers on their toes instead of behaving like blind sheep following a herd with a brand banner.
 
To some extant yes, but for nikon, they have their own sensors in the works in LBCAST, so in time they will be free of sony.

Far as the pixels, I'll take a 6MP chip in APS/FF size over a 10MP in a compact form factor. Big quality difference there.

Yes, Pentax and KM were a bit hampered, but at the same time, when sony wasn't making SLRs, there wasn't an issue, sony wants to supply to everyone and sell as much as they can, so there wasn't much of a hamstring their. If Pentax or KM wanted more, I'm sure sony would do it.

Now sony will SLRs, but they still want to sell sensors too, lots of money in that, so they have every interest in getting stuff to the competition. Now, thats not to say they won't reserve some special sensors for themselves. Or be certain that they get their camera out with the sensor first and then to other makers a few months later.

If Sony gets a FF 9D out in 07, you know Nikon will want that sensor too, but the odds of Nikon getting that sensor in a body before sony is low.

But sony will most definitely want to keep Pentax, Nikon and any others on their client list.

Still, in a few years, Sony will be another Canon, Nikon will have their own fab lines. Samsung will have bought Pentax and probably develop their own sensors too. Leica will permanently hook up with someone else and so forth. So all of this may be of little issue.
--

---

Will Sony and Nikon hurry up all ready and announce some stuff so Minolta users can
figure out if they Stay, Go or Curse the camera industry.
 
Srf_Cast said:
nikonians said:
The D200 blows away the 20D & 30D! It has some amazing features,
on top of that has more rez, so where is your argument now?

Nikon also makes a 12Mpix D2X.

Currently no one else has a 10 Mpix camera out! So where is Canon's
great sensor fab?
Click to expand...
The only comment I can make is that blind, uninformed brand
followers like you are what some manufacturers are banking on.
Fortunately for us consumers most people seem to form their own
opinions based on real information which helps to keep the
manufacturers on their toes instead of behaving like blind sheep
following a herd with a brand banner.
Click to expand...
Most? I believe it's the opposite. most people are like blind sheeps. only a small percentage actually form their own opinions.

--
Chunsum.

Put your soul behind the view finder.

http://www.chunsum.com
http://www.pbase.com/chunsum
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/chunsum_choi
 
nikonians said:
I was pointing out facts! I'm not blind to facts as you are.
Click to expand...
You call these facts?
nikonians said:
The D200 blows away the 20D & 30D! It has some amazing features,
on top of that has more rez, so where is your argument now?
Click to expand...
The D200 is a very highly featured camera. But blows away? Ha, ha... look at your ISO 800 and higher shots. Look at the number of complaints about the D200 not being able to lock focus in the forum.
nikonians said:
Currently no one else has a 10 Mpix camera out! So where is Canon's
great sensor fab?
Click to expand...
Canon's sensor fab is producing FF 12 MP and 16 MP chips for their cameras.
nikonians said:
Sorry you don't like it.
Click to expand...
Same to you.

-------------------------------------------
See the colors of my world in:
thw.smugmug.com
 
jeffkrol said:
quote.................
The sensor used in the D2H is Nikon's first in-house designed
sensor and based on a totally new 'JFET LBCAST' technology which
appears to be similar to CMOS but capable of outputting data at a
far higher speed.
unquote............................

http://www.europe-nikon.com/pressreleasedetail.aspx?countryId=18&languageId=19&pressReleaseId=128
quote...........
On July 22nd 2003, Nikon announced the D2H, a fourth-generation
digital SLR camera incorporating a new sensor known as the LBCAST.
With this announcement, Nikon has joined the esteemed ranks of the
few digital camera manufacturers who are capable of the design and
manufacture of high-speed, high-quality image sensors
..........unquote
Click to expand...
The problem is, Nikon hasn't really done anything with LBCAST since 2003 when the D2H was first introduced. With their subsequent DSLR models, the D2X and D200, they went back to the arms of Sony for their sensors. Nikon supposedly spent millions of dollars developing LBCAST, but they've failed to capitalize on that investment. They are still heavily dependent on Sony for their sensors. LBCAST sensors make up a very, very small fraction of Nikon's total volume. Probably some 90%-95% of Nikon's DSLR volume is still in Sony-sensored cameras. Nikon is still a long way from being autonous in their sensor supply capacity. And there's no telling what Sony may do as a supplier of DSLR sensors as they muscle their way into grabbing marketshare from the other DSLR brands. It may very well be that Sony intends on freezing the other brands at their current generation of sensors, while they keep newer generations of sensors for themselves and their own Alpha system DSLRs.
 
Well, I think Nikon has been probably working on it in the background since, and that the D2H was just them showing everyone they could indeed do it. Maybe even used it as a leverage to show Sony "we can do it if you force our hand, so don't try screwing us over"

I think since the KM/Sony deal, if Nikon wasn't going great guns on LBCAST they are now. Sony won't want to loose Nikons sales, but at the same time Nikon doesn't want to be competing with their supplier.

Nikon has no reason to make a 6MP sensor to just replace the current sonys, it would be a transition. My guess is they are focusing LBCAST efforts right now on a new Pro Chip, Probably a FF chip for the D2X replacement, and maybe a separate one for the D2H replacement, or maybe developing a chip that merges the two cameras. Then they could always go back and make chips for replacements of the D70, D200.

Nikon may have not been in a rush to put money into it because sony was their, but when sony became competition, that might have been a big change.
--

---

Will Sony and Nikon hurry up all ready and announce some stuff so Minolta users can
figure out if they Stay, Go or Curse the camera industry.
 
T3 said:
It may very well be that Sony intends on freezing the
other brands at their current generation of sensors, while they
keep newer generations of sensors for themselves and their own
Alpha system DSLRs.
Click to expand...
-------------------------------------------
See the colors of my world in:
thw.smugmug.com
 
@Bill Force

You got the point of my 1st post. That's exactly what I wanted to say.
--
Greetings

Mr Ralf
 
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