NewYawkSeahawk
Leading Member
TOo bad there isnt a market to take professional mug shots... those people actually DO NEED to get their picture taken
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why are people so cheap?
- Thread starter NewYawkSeahawk
- Start date
netop174840
Forum Enthusiast
think its very important to present your work on a homepage so that people can
see if they like your style of photography, but I guess you as professional
photographer can approach many different ways photographing a weeding
whish i think is impotent show, after all you are selling a product,
of course as a good photographer you will know whish approach is right
whit out thinking about it, but today when every one can pick up a DSLAR
and call them self a pro" sh9tt i don know how many times I've seen
guys in chat rums calling self pro photographers trying get some easy
bugs*ore*rater*ablowjob looking at there homeepage just revels a load
of stereotypeXXX cr@p. I am sure people wants a good photographer but they
also confused, and the established wedding photographers whit a know
reputation are simply to expensive for many.
Soory for writing what you properly already know, but my English needs some
exercise. There is a saying you get what you pay for, so show them why
they should pay more by choosing you, I am no wedding ore pro, but
think its the only way.
jm
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22272424@N00/
see if they like your style of photography, but I guess you as professional
photographer can approach many different ways photographing a weeding
whish i think is impotent show, after all you are selling a product,
of course as a good photographer you will know whish approach is right
whit out thinking about it, but today when every one can pick up a DSLAR
and call them self a pro" sh9tt i don know how many times I've seen
guys in chat rums calling self pro photographers trying get some easy
bugs*ore*rater*ablowjob looking at there homeepage just revels a load
of stereotypeXXX cr@p. I am sure people wants a good photographer but they
also confused, and the established wedding photographers whit a know
reputation are simply to expensive for many.
Soory for writing what you properly already know, but my English needs some
exercise. There is a saying you get what you pay for, so show them why
they should pay more by choosing you, I am no wedding ore pro, but
think its the only way.
jm
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22272424@N00/
David Hughes124436
Veteran Member
- Snip! Snip! Snip! - - -
Simple: the number of people who see something and think "that's nice" and have the spare cash to buy it there and then are few and far between. If you want to eat etc everyday then you need to be strong on the salesmanship or employ a darn good salesman/woman to bring the cash and work in over and over again. A team of two would probably work: have you thought about it?
Worse still, photographers are selling something that doesn't exist because the pictures will be taken after the customer has signed up. So the sales guy has to work harder.
Lastly, photography can be enjoyable in small quanties but imagine spending the rest of your days taking the same creative picture of some screaming baby etc...
And you've a mortgage(?) family(?) and pension(?) to support. Sorry to be so negative but that's how I see it.
tbcass
Forum Pro
No, a business client has more money to spend than a consumer. It's amusing how some seem to think they "deserve" a high fee. None of us deserve anything. We earn it.
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Tom
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
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Tom
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
chich
Forum Enthusiast
I work in an ad agency, and I can completely sympathise with your views. The value of a photo is EXTREMELY subjective to the client and their own background.
An idea can often be wrecked by poor execution, a strategy negated by bad communication. It is hard to convince a client who has little experience in good photography of the value of using a professional photographer, over an 'in house' job by their local guru with a P&S camera. Even when presented with examples of good vs. bad photography, if they don't percieve a NEED for good photography (ie. the useage situation is of little personal value), then it is hard to push that angle through.
Unfortunately, what some customers don't realise is that a brand's value is the sum of all its communications. Whilst their own ego may preclude them from spending some of their budget on a quality image for a 'less valuable' advertisement (from their perspective), poorly executed ads slowly erode the overall perception of the brand in the marketplace.
The funniest thing is that, in the end, we have to make a much larger allowance in the job estimate for retouching/manipulation than would be the case if a professional did the job in the first place. It would have been a minor additional cost to have had the pro do the job anyway.
This contrasts nicely with the clients who understand the value of an image and what part it plays in developing a brand. Such clients have no qualms on dropping $1.5 million on a shoot for a department-store refit. They understand that the return on their investment will far outweigh any savings possibly achieved in the short-term. It's a pity personal subjectivity and egos are such a large part of business.
In the end, value is subjective and has to be clearly elaborated to the client. Your best bet is to show examples of good, average and bad work. Show clients how you ADD VALUE. Demonstrate where their additional $xxxx will go, and what direct BENEFIT it will give them. If they still don't bite, they are the wrong client for you.
--
'Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.'
An idea can often be wrecked by poor execution, a strategy negated by bad communication. It is hard to convince a client who has little experience in good photography of the value of using a professional photographer, over an 'in house' job by their local guru with a P&S camera. Even when presented with examples of good vs. bad photography, if they don't percieve a NEED for good photography (ie. the useage situation is of little personal value), then it is hard to push that angle through.
Unfortunately, what some customers don't realise is that a brand's value is the sum of all its communications. Whilst their own ego may preclude them from spending some of their budget on a quality image for a 'less valuable' advertisement (from their perspective), poorly executed ads slowly erode the overall perception of the brand in the marketplace.
The funniest thing is that, in the end, we have to make a much larger allowance in the job estimate for retouching/manipulation than would be the case if a professional did the job in the first place. It would have been a minor additional cost to have had the pro do the job anyway.
This contrasts nicely with the clients who understand the value of an image and what part it plays in developing a brand. Such clients have no qualms on dropping $1.5 million on a shoot for a department-store refit. They understand that the return on their investment will far outweigh any savings possibly achieved in the short-term. It's a pity personal subjectivity and egos are such a large part of business.
In the end, value is subjective and has to be clearly elaborated to the client. Your best bet is to show examples of good, average and bad work. Show clients how you ADD VALUE. Demonstrate where their additional $xxxx will go, and what direct BENEFIT it will give them. If they still don't bite, they are the wrong client for you.
--
'Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.'
- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989
NewYawkSeahawk
Leading Member
sorry guys, but I got to go back to this one... because I am pi$$ed right now.
Short story... as a favor to a friend of a friend of a friend, I offered to do a free engagement portration session... COMPLETELY FREE, and the value when I would add my travel and parking time to go into the city would be $200 total.
So I offered to do this session for free, and even offered a 50% discount on all of my prints....
now the couple wants to know if I can just give them all of the digital negatives on a CD... basically taking any possible chance of me making even a slight profit, if for nothing more than to cover my expenses.... and just give it away on a plastic CD.
I am sorry... but that IS CHEAP!
Short story... as a favor to a friend of a friend of a friend, I offered to do a free engagement portration session... COMPLETELY FREE, and the value when I would add my travel and parking time to go into the city would be $200 total.
So I offered to do this session for free, and even offered a 50% discount on all of my prints....
now the couple wants to know if I can just give them all of the digital negatives on a CD... basically taking any possible chance of me making even a slight profit, if for nothing more than to cover my expenses.... and just give it away on a plastic CD.
I am sorry... but that IS CHEAP!
Isola Verde
Forum Pro
...... but it hurts most when it's you they're being cheap with!
How many on these Forums would think twice about buying 3rd party lithium cells, Sigma or Tamron lenses, ink cartridge refills - need I go on?
It's one of capitalism's main driving forces, and we're generally happy to pay less whenever we can.
And yes, it stinks when it's your bank branch that has to close, your factory that relocates to the Far East or your local camera shop that gives up because of box-shifters.
As far as this couple are concerned, just tell them an old client has now booked you for that day and you're no longer available.
Their cheapness isn't meant personally, it only reflects how little they value what you're offering. They'll find a friend who will take the snaps that are all that they really want.
Much better that you move on and find someone who gives a damn!
--
Peter
http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde
How many on these Forums would think twice about buying 3rd party lithium cells, Sigma or Tamron lenses, ink cartridge refills - need I go on?
It's one of capitalism's main driving forces, and we're generally happy to pay less whenever we can.
And yes, it stinks when it's your bank branch that has to close, your factory that relocates to the Far East or your local camera shop that gives up because of box-shifters.
As far as this couple are concerned, just tell them an old client has now booked you for that day and you're no longer available.
Their cheapness isn't meant personally, it only reflects how little they value what you're offering. They'll find a friend who will take the snaps that are all that they really want.
Much better that you move on and find someone who gives a damn!
--
Peter
http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde
Tommy_T
Forum Enthusiast
this is the most interesting thread i've ever seen. classic.
the guy wants to whinge. he has a job, makes some money, he has spent a lot on cameras and lenses and thinks he is good at it and perhaps he is. as he thinks he is good, he expects people to pay top bux for his services. but people don't want to. for whatever reason, this is irrelevant here. he appears to be angry, under a lot of stress and in a need for some support.
so he posts here looking for sympathy, a little company. he tries to find a friend...
the guy wants to whinge. he has a job, makes some money, he has spent a lot on cameras and lenses and thinks he is good at it and perhaps he is. as he thinks he is good, he expects people to pay top bux for his services. but people don't want to. for whatever reason, this is irrelevant here. he appears to be angry, under a lot of stress and in a need for some support.
so he posts here looking for sympathy, a little company. he tries to find a friend...
CharlieDIY
Veteran Member
CharlieDIY
Veteran Member
Tommy_T
Forum Enthusiast
... i would just post some pix i took 
Dan Pidcock
Senior Member
People always try to get what they can: it's a natural starting point in any negotiation.
Stop throwing insults around and think about how you can turn this situation around.
Just explain to them that if they want the CD then you have a full usage fee of $300 or whatever. Otherwise you are happy to provide them with prints starting at $x each for 6x4, maybe take them a few larger prints to look at and say well for only $x0 instead look what you can get. As Frank from AZ has explained you need to sell - the product won't sell itself. Now is your chance to do some selling. Otherwise stick to the day job cos you won't make it. I've been on the receiving end of professional photographers and seen how they work to get the prints sold.
Dan
--
http://photo.pidcock.co.uk/ - Photography information
http://www.pidcock.co.uk/photos - My photographs
David Hughes124436
Veteran Member
because we are a friendly lot on this forum we are trying to explain and reason it through. If we weren't we'd just raise two fingers and go on to the next thread...
As I see it, if you do pictures as a favour for friends then you have to go all the way. Can't be friends "class 2" and say "no" at some point. That's what friends are all about. (All or nothing - like marriage... )
If it's business, then we say the samples are on the wall but I can do you a free sample but - this is a great big "but" - tell them the sample will be 4" x 6" and marked "sample" clearly and that's that. End of story: you get a client or you don't but you start off on the right footing.
Just my 2d worth.
Regards, David
As I see it, if you do pictures as a favour for friends then you have to go all the way. Can't be friends "class 2" and say "no" at some point. That's what friends are all about. (All or nothing - like marriage... )
If it's business, then we say the samples are on the wall but I can do you a free sample but - this is a great big "but" - tell them the sample will be 4" x 6" and marked "sample" clearly and that's that. End of story: you get a client or you don't but you start off on the right footing.
Just my 2d worth.
Regards, David
AWT
Leading Member
Do a batch conversion on them all so they are colour digital negatives as requested..
i.e.
That should convey your feelings, and they did ask for negatives!
i.e.
That should convey your feelings, and they did ask for negatives!
NewYawkSeahawk
Leading Member
It is morons like you that make people like me hesitant to post on message boards.
Last time I checked... this message board is open talk and people come on here seeking guidance, opinions or stories of similar nature relating to theirs.
I am not looking for sympathy, I am not whining... I am just stating what I have perceived to be a public devaluazatiopn of professional photography and am looking to see if others have experienced the same.
I don't expect people to pay top bucks for my services, my rates are fair, but on the same hand I am not going to spend my time for bargain basement prices.... that's just not the demographic I want to target.
I am not under any stress... although I will admit I AM ANGRY!
I am angry that I offered my services for free (but invoiced them the full amount to show what they would expect to pay in full) as a courtesy to a friend of a friend of a friend, and extended 50% discount on prints and even though my contract clearly states "photographer does not release digital negatives for portrait sessions" the first thing they come back with is "Can we get all the images on a CD?"
That would be like me asking my brother in law (who does carpentry) to come build me a deck and his labor is free and I will pay just for the materials.... and when he is done with the job turn to him and say "Hey thanks for your free time and services, but do you think I can keep your tools now that your done with my job?"
But as others have said in the past... freebies, friends and discounted prices are always the clients who will give you the biggest headache opposed to those paying in full.
To those who have been helpful... thank you, your advice has provided great guidance in my initial beginnings delviging into the world of "photography as a business" and have learned in a short time, who I do or don't want for my clients.
To those who had to put up with my "whining", I apologize... I thought that was the whole point of a Open Talk Forum. I will try to speak only positive optimistic thoughts that are within the public consesus of popular topic and try to stick to things that are really important like macro shots of a Woodpecker's anus.
NewYawkSeahawk
Leading Member
Thanks Dan.... I agree with you
however.... with this particular situation as I said... it was a courtesy to a friend of a friend of a friend (which I shouldnt have agreed to) so even if they buy 100 prints... I wont be making much profit on this sale, so maybe it sounds like an excuse... but if I am doing something as a favor for friend or family, I am not going to waste my time trying to upsell them on something that I already got stuck offering them discounted pricing on.
I have been looking into Sales courses like Frank suggested and have been doing a better time handling client obstacles and questions as a direct result of Frank's suggestions.
NewYawkSeahawk
Leading Member
Thanks David....
If it were my direct friend, than yes I probably would give them the digitals, because you are right... that's what friends are all about.
But this is a friend of a friend of a friend... an acquaintance... not someone whose phone number I even had before they contacted me... I was willing to offer them a free session and told them they could purchase prints and products at a discounted rate, and when i presented them the contract, it clearly says "I do not release negatives".
Just because I am doing a favor for a friend of a friend of a friend, doesnt mean I have to give them the whole house, just because they want to use the pool... does it?
carl english
Veteran Member
Best response so far ISOLA VERDE second best TOMMY.
Its strange how we politely thank all who agree with us and then the one who disagrees is a Moron. I'm a very old hand at this and to me you come over similar to an insurance salesman, promising something for nothing then protesting when they don't want to pay. SHAME ON YOU!!
Its strange how we politely thank all who agree with us and then the one who disagrees is a Moron. I'm a very old hand at this and to me you come over similar to an insurance salesman, promising something for nothing then protesting when they don't want to pay. SHAME ON YOU!!
Meryl Arbing
Senior Member
Nobody can deny that digital cameras have penetrated far into the camera market. Millions and millions of people have digital cameras and they use them. One of the advantages quoted for the superiority of digital cameras over film cameras is that, with digital, there is no need to PAY for film and processing. In essence, digital means FREE film.
The consumer may have understood the need to be charged for film and processing when the photographer used film cameras but, why should they pay the same amount for digital pictures when they KNOW the shots are FREE? Therefore they expect digital shots to be significantly cheaper than traditional film shots or they will refuse to pay (thinking you are gouging them) or will demand substasntial discounts (because digital has NO PROCESSING COSTS.)
The consumer may have understood the need to be charged for film and processing when the photographer used film cameras but, why should they pay the same amount for digital pictures when they KNOW the shots are FREE? Therefore they expect digital shots to be significantly cheaper than traditional film shots or they will refuse to pay (thinking you are gouging them) or will demand substasntial discounts (because digital has NO PROCESSING COSTS.)
NewYawkSeahawk
Leading Member
I called him a moron, not because he disagreed with me... but because he disagreed with me in a way that was rude and uncalled for, calling my comments whining and making negative statements.... he could have made his point without all the condescention.
great, now I have another person to call a moron.
I am not complaining that they dont want to pay me... I even told them they are at no obligation to buy anything from me.
I am complaining because the original agreement was that I would do session for free and offer discounted pricing on any prints they wanted to buy from me... I could care less if I made $1 from this job.
It is the principle that has annoyed me.... that any potential for me to sell even dicounted prints if for nothing more than covering my expenses, someone wants to take out of my hand with a digital images on a CD so they can run to Walmart for $5 prints.
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