why are people so cheap?

NewYawkSeahawk said:

I took a good "starting your own photography business" seminar a
few months ago and the person hit the nail head on.... If you take
the approach of starting out cheap just to get some initial
business... that is how you will be known as.... a cheap budget
photographer, so everyone will refer you to your friends as a cheap
budget photographer, and once you get known as that it will be next
to impossible to break out of it and start charging 2x as much down
the road.

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so everyone will refer you to your friends

was supposed to read:
so everyone will refer you to THEIR friends

NewYawkSeahawk said:

Someone who said it earlier... I agree with... if one of the first
things out of someone's mouth is "What are your prices?" without
telling me much about what they are looking for and expecting, that
tells me that they are primarily concerned with how much it is
going to cost them. That is not the kind of client I want... call
it snobbish, or what not..

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Interesting thread, this...lots of really good advice being given...My 2 cents:

After I retired from my main career, went back to school, obtained a CFP and developed a financial planning practice...(since sold the practice and retired for good). I was never a great salesman, but I did more than OK for a number of reasons....not to toot my own horn, but I knew what I was doing, was extremely honest, and always held the clients interests above my own.

I didn't know this at first, but I did learn from meeting with a wide spectrum of the public that there are just some folks that you don't want to deal with... and the earlier that you can identify them, the better off that you are.

The 20/80 rule has several forms, but to me it meant that you get 80% of your profit from 20% of your clients.....while you spend 80% of your time on the other 80% which in the end only return only 20% in profits.

So I agree with you in being selective, right from the start, with your clients. People have distinct personalities and they never seem to change. If a client is only interested in what it's going to cost, or wastes your time with endless questions....don't walk, run the other way.

--
-Don

'Where do we go when we die?' said Billy.
'I don't know', the old man said, 'Where are we now?'
.....Cormac McCarthy
http://www.pbase.com/dond

Don_D said:

The 20/80 rule has several forms, but to me it meant that you get
80% of your profit from 20% of your clients.....while you spend 80%
of your time on the other 80% which in the end only return only 20%
in profits.

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WOW.... that says it all right there...

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO true....

It is always the people that pay the most that are the easiest to deal with, but the person paying the least is going to have a million and one questions, comments and complaints and hound you long after your done.

Like I said before... I did a free portrait session for a woman 7 months ago, and when I ran a new promotion yesterday she wanted to know if her freebie from 7 months qualified her to receive the promotion I started yesterday.... I couldnt believe it.

thanks for sharing that great 80/20 formula... ive heard that before, but never had it in perspective till now.

Admittedly, I have NOTHING positive to contribute to this "lament"....

but I CAN punch some pretty big holes in the nonsense perpetrated here!!

(relatively)Young, fortunate corporate exec whinning about the difficulty with non-corporate client pricing?? Think that's a "Hint"???? Try "making it" without an extravagent guaranteed salary to fall back on!! (Yes, extravagent; check IRS income returns!) Mon-Fri 9-5 six-figure income isn't "enough"??

And allegories referring to auto sales people (income) is so incredulous I have difficulty reading that they would be cited as examples!! (Did 10 yrs selling and NEVER to this day have known ANYONE making $300k doing it!!) Although it's been nearly a decade, I did know several sales people approaching $100k, needing an average of 60 hrs wk or more of aggression and Good Luck to accomplish that.

Zig Ziglier??!!! Why do you think he was writing books and doing seminars?? He made MORE money with that than he EVER did actually "selling"!! Like most (of that ilk), he went where the money was; and it WASN'T selling cars and trucks!!!!!!!
(Besides, THAT genre of "sales successes" faded over two decades ago!!)

Big Bucks can now only be made in the financing of vehicle purchases to sub-par credit buyers; THAT field has had explosive growth for over a decade!! (Frank, does your firm do more than 10% of either A or B paper, or is it almost exclusively C and D? car people know what I mean,
congratulations on your success...)

Unless you're capable and WILLING to rip people's hearts out for a buck there are few of those sales people earning more than a middle-class income, it's a "grind" job like so many others; including pro photographers.

"Slick" is as "slick" does, and there will always be mythical heroes of an industry; any industry. Buying into it extends THEIR credibility, not yours....
that's MY story, 'n I'm STICKIN' TO IT!!!!!!!!

(IOW, airing and promoting dirty laundry on a public forum can be VERY revealing!!!)

DOUGLAS2 said:

Admittedly, I have NOTHING positive to contribute to this "lament"....

but I CAN punch some pretty big holes in the nonsense perpetrated
here!!

(relatively)Young, fortunate corporate exec whinning about the
difficulty with non-corporate client pricing?? Think that's a
"Hint"???? Try "making it" without an extravagent guaranteed salary
to fall back on!! (Yes, extravagent; check IRS income returns!)
Mon-Fri 9-5 six-figure income isn't "enough"??

Click to expand...

DOUGLAS2 said:

(IOW, airing and promoting dirty laundry on a public forum can be
VERY revealing!!!)

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wow... I can say this in complete confidence..

You sir are a moron.

Oh, so because I have been fortunate and talented enough to secure a good position at a young age, that doesnt give me the right to branch out and try other things to see if I could be successful at that? Right.... because people should only stick to exactly what they currently do right... Tell that to Ronald Reagan or Elvis Presely.

My salary is not guaranteed, I could lose my job at any time, and I am pursuing something that I enjoy now to see if I would enjoy doing it full time while I have the convenience of supporting myself through other means.... Yet you come on here and knock me for that?

As far as airing or promoting dirty laundry on a public site... that certainly was not my intent... I used to think this place was a good forum to come get advice from others in similar situations, and I was seeking discussion from others in a similar situation... that's the whole point of a forum.... But unfortunately there are many people on here who would rather put people down, and crticize them for exploring potential avenues of additional income.

I said it at the begnning, but I will say it again..

You sir are a moron!

20% of the sales force generates 80% of the business, and of course, commissions.
--
Frank from Phoenix
Canon1DMk2,1D,Oly5060 and lots of typos

NewYawkSeahawk said:

wow... I can say this in complete confidence..

You sir are a moron.

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NewYawkSeahawk said:

As far as airing or promoting dirty laundry on a public site...
that certainly was not my intent...
I said it at the begnning, but I will say it again..

You sir are a moron!

Click to expand...

Yeah, right; I'm a moron........for crying about people being "cheap".....under the guise of self-improvement! Wanna expand your abilities?? Congrats, now do so!! I never critisized THAT endeavor, rather I questioned whether your committment to it!!

And it was you that decided your "intent" on exposing your difficulties for response, on a public site....YOUR decision to "shoot the messenger" cause you don't like the message! Is it any wonder you're finding unhappiness dealing with people outside of the machinations of corporate life and protocol??!!

The assertion I posted was intended to assist you, eliminate some of the "smoke and mirrors" myths perpetrated as paths to your goal.....YOUR success depends on YOU!!! Your work, negotiations, efforts, etc. The "formula" must be your own making, there are no corporate rules or 9-5 Mon-Fri means of running your own business! Others have posted some sage advice, perhaps more helpful......in the end, however, how much of your happiness and success will you be willing to donate to someone else????

If you cannot effectively deal with my gentle perspective as a truth, the future may not bode as well as you'd like.......and it's easier to call me a "moron".

DOUGLAS2 said:

DOUGLAS2 said:

wow... I can say this in complete confidence..

You sir are a moron.

Click to expand...

DOUGLAS2 said:

As far as airing or promoting dirty laundry on a public site...
that certainly was not my intent...
I said it at the begnning, but I will say it again..

You sir are a moron!

Click to expand...

Yeah, right; I'm a moron........for crying about people being
"cheap".....under the guise of self-improvement! Wanna expand your
abilities?? Congrats, now do so!! I never critisized THAT endeavor,
rather I questioned whether your committment to it!!
And it was you that decided your "intent" on exposing your
difficulties for response, on a public site....YOUR decision to
"shoot the messenger" cause you don't like the message! Is it any
wonder you're finding unhappiness dealing with people outside of
the machinations of corporate life and protocol??!!
The assertion I posted was intended to assist you, eliminate some
of the "smoke and mirrors" myths perpetrated as paths to your
goal.....YOUR success depends on YOU!!! Your work, negotiations,
efforts, etc. The "formula" must be your own making, there are no
corporate rules or 9-5 Mon-Fri means of running your own business!
Others have posted some sage advice, perhaps more helpful......in
the end, however, how much of your happiness and success will you
be willing to donate to someone else????
If you cannot effectively deal with my gentle perspective as a
truth, the future may not bode as well as you'd like.......and it's
easier to call me a "moron".

Click to expand...

no, I am calling you a moron, because you are a charleton coming on here trying to put up this facade of intelligence by trying to demean my intentions by showing off your verbose vocabulary.

I think it is a rule, that you can only use the word "perpetrate" once per day, otherwise it loses it's effectiveness... unless of course you are in law enforcement, is that the case?

Who ever said i was unhappy? I am quite happy because I set my own rules for what I want to spend my time on.. I never said I had difficulties of response... that is your own misperception. I am hoping to learn how to either combat those people who are concerned about price and sell them on the value of my service.... or learn quicker how to efficiently weed these people out, as I would prefer to crack the 20% margin.

So because I formulate an opinion based on my experiences... I am whining and crying and unhappy?

I love how people think they know someone from words on a internet message board.

You actually are making me laugh at your verbal sewage... You say if I can not deal with your "gentle" perspective... yet your first two lines of your initial post

"Admittedly, I have NOTHING positive to contribute to this "lament"....

but I CAN punch some pretty big holes in the nonsense perpetrated here!! "

Right... I could see how I might misunderstand that gentleness... you were right the first time.... You have NOTHING positive to contribute... I think you chimed in merely for the sake of putting the dictionary you got for Christmas to good use, by breaking out the $5 words.

Well congrats... You win my vote for most successful use of the word "perpetrate" on a internet message board!

Your accomplishments should be well noted!

Again.... you sir are a moron.

To all the others who understand I was seeking advice based on your own experience.... thank you very much.

To those of you who think I need my ego filled or don't know the difference outside of corporate world... that is complete BS.

The corporate world is FILLED with the same cheap people as you deal with in public sectors... the biggest differences as relating to me is.. on a corporate level, I dont make decisions or negotiations on price, that is all handled by the powers that be. People are just as equally cheap and as equally uneducated in the value of things in the corporate sector... I deal with multi billionaires on a daily basis who are penny wise, dollar foolish.... simply because they dont understand or value creative works.... and will pay the company I work for 4x as much to keep redoing things till they get it right, than if they had understood the value and gotten it done right the first time.

I self admitedly state, I am not a good sales person when it comes to photography as a business for me. That is something I am working on... and it hasnt even been a month, so I am making progress.

But that doesnt mean I cant tell the difference between my lack of efficient sales tactics.... and someone who is just a cheap person looking to score the lowest possible price they can find without regards to quality of service.

No more from me, life's too short. Best of luck to you!!

Frank from AZ said:

20% of the sales force generates 80% of the business, and of
course, commissions.
--

Click to expand...

The 20/80 rule doesn't apply, but freelancing for publications works in a similar manner. It is always the people who pay your bottom rate, the ones you pick up as a favor to someone or as a time filler, who demand--not request--the most work. I've found over the years that editors who pay the best are also the easiest to work with, the most appreciative of the work you do, and, generally, the fastest to pay. Editors who pay the least demand several rewrites, pay after publication--in some instances, months after--and are snotty as all get out when you ask them what they're aiming at, what goals the writing and photography is supposed to meet (after it has met the goals they first expressed to you).

That two hour $250 article then ends up taking two days, sometimes three and brings a snarl from the editor, while the projected one or two week $3000 article goes together in three days, too, and brings a note of thanks from the editor.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

I've known many people who started out in business cheap and worked into successful thriving businesses. They lost their original clients but the new ones knew nothing of their "cheap" past.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

CharlieDIY said:

Frank from AZ said:

20% of the sales force generates 80% of the business, and of
course, commissions.
--

Click to expand...

The 20/80 rule doesn't apply, but freelancing for publications
works in a similar manner. It is always the people who pay your
bottom rate, the ones you pick up as a favor to someone or as a
time filler, who demand--not request--the most work. I've found
over the years that editors who pay the best are also the easiest
to work with, the most appreciative of the work you do, and,
generally, the fastest to pay. Editors who pay the least demand
several rewrites, pay after publication--in some instances, months
after--and are snotty as all get out when you ask them what they're
aiming at, what goals the writing and photography is supposed to
meet (after it has met the goals they first expressed to you).

That two hour $250 article then ends up taking two days, sometimes
three and brings a snarl from the editor, while the projected one
or two week $3000 article goes together in three days, too, and
brings a note of thanks from the editor.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

Click to expand...

so so true.... I've done a couple of favors and all of them have been a pain in the @$$!

Richard Crowe said:

Most of the musicians / singing groups that I have known have never
made to the big time. They are just struggling local bands and
song groups.

Wouldn't it be nice though, to have the first shots of a group that
become famous a-la The Beatles or Grateful Dead!

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Richard,

That's a little too close to the woman who called me recently telling me her new web site couldn't pay much, but I'd get fabulous exposure. I get enough exposure from web sites, magazines and books that an unknown starting a new web site in my areas of expertise is much more likely to be helped by my reputation, as well as my work, than I am to be helped by their 'exposure' of my work. The world is full of wannabes, most of whom are low on cash. That's no reason for me being low on cash, too.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

Amy Greenberg said:

Maybe the person you are trying to sell to is very skilled at what
they do but only get paid $20/hr, so they feel that it's not worth
paying $150/hr.

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Hope they never need a lawyer or an ortho surgeon, then. Even bad lawyers get upwards of $100 an hour and ortho surgeons make closer to $5000 an hour. Some are even worth it.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

PaulyOly said:

I get emails from people who see my wildlife prints (on display
where I work) asking how much i charge for a copy. When I reply
with $30 for an 11x14 I never here from them again. I'm starting
to think I should ask $300 and maybe they will think it's an
investment.

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Good idea. lots of people can only judge things by the price tag. Look at wine or software f'instance. How can some software sell at high prices when others are giving away better for free? But the fact is that they do sell and people are glad of it. There's nothing so reassuring as a high price.

Regards, David

PS If I had a decent well paid job and enjoyed a hobby I'd stick to enjoying the hobby...

CharlieDIY said:

That's a little too close to the woman who called me recently
telling me her new web site couldn't pay much, but I'd get fabulous
exposure. I get enough exposure from web sites, magazines and books
that an unknown starting a new web site in my areas of expertise is
much more likely to be helped by my reputation, as well as my work,
than I am to be helped by their 'exposure' of my work. The world is
full of wannabes, most of whom are low on cash. That's no reason
for me being low on cash, too.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

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Charlie...

You really hit the nail on the head.....

I get requests all the time for design work from people who tell me how if I give them a great price they will refer me to everyone and hand my business cards out to everyone and bring me in so much business..

Yeah... people who will be looking to get breaks and deals just like you... especially when you say "Oh he did it for such a low price"

No thanks...

David wrote

CharlieDIY said:

PS If I had a decent well paid job and enjoyed a hobby I'd stick to enjoying the hobby...

Click to expand...

Well David... my hobby of photography ties into my well paid job... I am VP of Creative Services, so i photograph and oversee photo sessions , it is just that I am not the one doing the price negotiations with clients, I am strictly the creative aspect.

It's not like I work at a Industrial Plant and do photography on the side as a hobby.... for me the 2 are married, and I know I would like to eventually create my own creative studio..... But what I posses in creative, I lack in sales ability... so I am working on my sales ability while I have the convenience of a steady job.

What's wrong with that?

NewYawkSeahawk said:

yeah but another flaw in Frank's theory....

the majority of people buy cars because they depend on it for
transportation, so it could be argued that it is a necessity.

photographs are not a necessity, it is a luxry item.

people dont need photographs.

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All the more reason to establish a "value proposition" in the prospect's mind. People will buy luxury if they think they're getting their money's worth.

By the way, one trick of art sales is to establish a prospect's monthly budget and structure a payment plan to match that amount. Someone comes in for a lithograph and can pay $300 per month can get upsold to a oil painting -- of course, they're now paying over 72 months but still at what they can afford per month. And they don't even balk at paying the finance charges.

David Hughes said:

PaulyOly said:

I get emails from people who see my wildlife prints (on display
where I work) asking how much i charge for a copy. When I reply
with $30 for an 11x14 I never here from them again. I'm starting
to think I should ask $300 and maybe they will think it's an
investment.

Click to expand...

Good idea. lots of people can only judge things by the price tag.
Look at wine or software f'instance. How can some software sell at
high prices when others are giving away better for free? But the
fact is that they do sell and people are glad of it. There's
nothing so reassuring as a high price.

Click to expand...

I'd at least take a stab at a five times multiple, say $150, and see what happens. At least you've lost a classier sale if they don't buy.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

As stated before, you must aim your sights on customers who can not only appreciate but, afford your services.

While I might be able to taste the difference between a $35 stake and a $13 one from a good family restraint, at my income level, I would not taste $22 difference. Now if I made $200K per year, I would probably think the more expensive meal well worth the cost.
--
H1 fun button...Always on

CharlieDIY said:

CharlieDIY said:

Maybe the person you are trying to sell to is very skilled at what
they do but only get paid $20/hr, so they feel that it's not worth
paying $150/hr.

Click to expand...

Hope they never need a lawyer or an ortho surgeon, then. Even bad
lawyers get upwards of $100 an hour and ortho surgeons make closer
to $5000 an hour. Some are even worth it.

Click to expand...

The key word there is "need." If someone needs a surgeon then they really need one (though their insurance is probably paying for it).

No one needs to get their picture taken.