why are people so cheap?

Thanks... alot of what you said this time around I agree with...

I guess one of the biggest problems for me getting this thing going is... I have a full time job as VP of Creative Services for a company here in NY, and I make 6 figures, so I don't have the time to dedicate during the week fully to going out and meeting with people, as I'm at work 9-5ish M-F. and because I make decent money, any jobs I do take on have to be worth it for me to lose my free time, sitting home, watching a movie, playing XBOX, hanging with my g/f, whatever.

I guess if I didnt have my full time job, and I only had the photography thing to count on, I would have more time M-F, 9-5 to go and meeting with people and go over things... but then again... Even in setting up times to go meet with people, how would you screen the serious people vs. the non serious? If I did this full time and had a brock and mortar studio, I could solve that by having people travel to see me, but right now I would have to drive to go meet with someone, and quite frankly I just cant do that for every single person who calls me up for work. This is why i discuss pricing on the phone, and those who are still interested, I will than go see and review works, samples and go over a contract.

Alsol, you are right about oferring a basic price and building from that... I actually re-evaluated by pricing this past weekend and decided to break it out into tiers, so that if someone does ask my prices....as you said... I can give them the lowest possible price they can expect.... and than build on from there based upon what they want....

I only got my promotional site up a month ago, so the business side of this is all new to me.

I also do graphic design / web etc etc, and I ALWAYS would be asked to take on freelance work from people, and I would always decline with the mentality that for me to take away from my free time to work on someone's design... it has to be worth my loss of time... I kind of equate the 2...

thanks for all the great advice.... I am relaitvely young, (31) and my goal is to do enough work to keep me busy, build up a nice portfolio and save some extra money towards getting that brick and mortar studio so I can do that full time.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

yeah but another flaw in Frank's theory....

the majority of people buy cars because they depend on it for
transportation, so it could be argued that it is a necessity.

Click to expand...

It's an excuse for not being able to sell, period.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

photographs are not a necessity, it is a luxry item.

Click to expand...

So is leather, so is a sunroof, so is a GPS unit, so is the next model up. Anything above a KIA Spectra is luxury for that matter.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

people dont need photographs.

Click to expand...

People don't need Nissan Maximas, they can get by just fine with a base model Sentra.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

Someone who said it earlier... I agree with... if one of the first
things out of someone's mouth is "What are your prices?" without
telling me much about what they are looking for and expecting, that
tells me that they are primarily concerned with how much it is
going to cost them. That is not the kind of client I want... call
it snobbish, or what not..

Click to expand...

The basic sales objection. Since you are unable to overcome this basic objection, it tells me you have no sales savvy or sales experience. This is the first thing people ask with any product, it is a defensive mechanism. Seriously, this is the basic sales objection.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

It's the same mentality when you call a job up from a ad, and the
first thing a HR person says is "What is your current salary?" or
"What salary are you looking for?".... to me that says "Our budget
comes first, qualified candidates come secondary".

Click to expand...

No, you really are out of touch with the corporate world. They don't want overqualified people for a job since those people will hop ship once something better comes along and salary is indicative of ones abilities.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

That is all well and good, and I understand people have budgets,
but doesnt change the fact that people are still cheap.

Im sure I could take a few sales courses but that wont change the
fact that someone calling asking for prices upfront is more than
likely cheap.

Click to expand...

Again, the most common objection with any product, see my rant above.

If I sound a little annoyed it is because I am. You are parroting the excuses my poor performers tell me daily. Today I am doing month end reports for May, and I am stuck here working on my computer, so this is how I spend my 5 minute breaks. I really do care about salespeople and from your responses you really need some sales experience.

I recently hired, about 2 months ago, a new sales rep for one of my territories. That person already is tracking for over 100 contracts this month, a remarkable feat for his 3rd month (We pay 100 dollars a contract plus a base salary of $5000). Why am I telling you this? Because 2 months ago I fired his predecessor, whose best month was 25 contracts. His excuse: the competition is cheaper, the competition gives more advance (you car finance people will know what I am talking about), the competiton pays more reserve, my credit analyst pisses off my dealers, every excuse on why our company was overpriced and uncompetitive. What changed in the last two months? Only the salesperson. Nothing else.

I know several photographers who are booked solid for the next few months. I called one up the other day because I could not shoot an event and asked if he could do it. He couldn't he was booked. Instead of feeling sorry for himself and coming up with excuses on why people don't want photographs anymore, he's gone out and filled his calendar. If he can do it, you can too......

--
Frank from Phoenix
Canon1DMk2,1D,Oly5060 and lots of typos

You are welcome, email me if you have specific questions. I too am somewhat wed to my job. I have 6 kids and they all go to private schools so I don't have the luxury of opening my own studio, although the wife is bugging me to. 1 is in High School and that alone is $8000 a year and I've got another one entering next year.

Luckily, as Sales Director, i work about 30 hours a week and make what most people think is an obscene salary, but it gives me time for photography. I have not advertised but I have a full plate.

For the kids' sake I have to stick around til I have college funds secure for all 6, I have 3 more to save up for, hoping to open the studio in 2 years.....

NewYawkSeahawk said:

Thanks... alot of what you said this time around I agree with...

I guess one of the biggest problems for me getting this thing going
is... I have a full time job as VP of Creative Services for a
company here in NY, and I make 6 figures, so I don't have the time
to dedicate during the week fully to going out and meeting with
people, as I'm at work 9-5ish M-F. and because I make decent money,
any jobs I do take on have to be worth it for me to lose my free
time, sitting home, watching a movie, playing XBOX, hanging with my
g/f, whatever.

I guess if I didnt have my full time job, and I only had the
photography thing to count on, I would have more time M-F, 9-5 to
go and meeting with people and go over things... but then again...
Even in setting up times to go meet with people, how would you
screen the serious people vs. the non serious? If I did this full
time and had a brock and mortar studio, I could solve that by
having people travel to see me, but right now I would have to drive
to go meet with someone, and quite frankly I just cant do that for
every single person who calls me up for work. This is why i discuss
pricing on the phone, and those who are still interested, I will
than go see and review works, samples and go over a contract.

Alsol, you are right about oferring a basic price and building from
that... I actually re-evaluated by pricing this past weekend and
decided to break it out into tiers, so that if someone does ask my
prices....as you said... I can give them the lowest possible price
they can expect.... and than build on from there based upon what
they want....

I only got my promotional site up a month ago, so the business side
of this is all new to me.

I also do graphic design / web etc etc, and I ALWAYS would be asked
to take on freelance work from people, and I would always decline
with the mentality that for me to take away from my free time to
work on someone's design... it has to be worth my loss of time... I
kind of equate the 2...

thanks for all the great advice.... I am relaitvely young, (31) and
my goal is to do enough work to keep me busy, build up a nice
portfolio and save some extra money towards getting that brick and
mortar studio so I can do that full time.

Click to expand...

--
Frank from Phoenix
Canon1DMk2,1D,Oly5060 and lots of typos

Frank from AZ said:

If I sound a little annoyed it is because I am. You are parroting
the excuses my poor performers tell me daily. Today I am doing
month end reports for May, and I am stuck here working on my
computer, so this is how I spend my 5 minute breaks. I really do
care about salespeople and from your responses you really need some
sales experience.

I recently hired, about 2 months ago, a new sales rep for one of my
territories. That person already is tracking for over 100
contracts this month, a remarkable feat for his 3rd month (We pay
100 dollars a contract plus a base salary of $5000). Why am I
telling you this? Because 2 months ago I fired his predecessor,
whose best month was 25 contracts. His excuse: the competition is
cheaper, the competition gives more advance (you car finance people
will know what I am talking about), the competiton pays more
reserve, my credit analyst pisses off my dealers, every excuse on
why our company was overpriced and uncompetitive. What changed in
the last two months? Only the salesperson. Nothing else.

I know several photographers who are booked solid for the next few
months. I called one up the other day because I could not shoot an
event and asked if he could do it. He couldn't he was booked.
Instead of feeling sorry for himself and coming up with excuses on
why people don't want photographs anymore, he's gone out and
filled his calendar. If he can do it, you can too......

--
Frank from Phoenix
Canon1DMk2,1D,Oly5060 and lots of typos

Click to expand...

yeah but as I have said... I only started promoting a month ago to outside clients.... so I still need time to promote and get my name out there.

Also... I dont have the kind of time to dedicate as others whose primary responsibility is their business.

Please dont fault me for not being up to the standards as the sales people in your dealership. I am not a sales person, I am a creative professional... I must know something about the corporate world to have reached a VP of Creative level at a 6 figure salary by age 31. I know you are trying to help and I appreciate it....

but this is all new to me from a business sense... and like any business, I need to learn what works and what doesnt work... I'd rather learn that now while I have a steady income from my main job, than be out on my own counting solely on photography client dollars to survive.

Zidar said:

If you have an art director who understands the value of
photography, it's easy.

Click to expand...

The "value of photography" is so utterly subjective, the phrase is absolutely without meaning. Things have value relative to other things or even relative to other peoples' perceptions of value, but things, even photographs, don't have value in and of themselves. What is so hard to understand about this concept?

Have I ever seen a photograph so compelling and enticing I would trade my car or empty my savings account for the picture on the spot? No, I haven't. Does that mean I don't appreciate the "value of photography", whatever that means? No. Does it mean I can't appreciate the skill of a photographer and acknowledge his or her desire to earn a living from a skill they love? No, again.

People aren't necessarily "cheap", but they do have their own priorties and subjective values. Or have I missed some important discovery over the last few years, such as a new science that lets people say for certain that a $250.00 portait from "Le Effete Photo Studio" is 30% more aesthetically pleasing than a $50 portrait from Sears? Photographers need to take their noses out of the air, held high to avoid the odor of the Great Unwashed, and realize that those artless louts who "don't value photography" are actually the atoms from which the free market is formed.

A photography studio is a business and owners should "start likin' it". Try to get a business loan solely on the strength of your vision and artistic sensibilities. When you're turned down, you can start a new thread titled "Why are bankers so insensitive?"

NewYawkSeahawk said:

yeah but another flaw in Frank's theory....

the majority of people buy cars because they depend on it for
transportation, so it could be argued that it is a necessity.

Click to expand...

Baloney. The necessity part of a car purchase is the superficial reason people buy cars. Very few people actually buy cars largely based on necessity. They buy it for their ego, to show off, as a luxury, because some salesman convinces them that its what they need, safety, because they think it will get them chicks and a myriad of other things. The functional "necessity" part is usually very far down on the list.

I'm one of the few people I'm aware of that puts most of his car purchasing money toward the "necessity" aspect. That's why I have never bought a new car - probably never will - and am a nearly impossible sales prospect for a car salesman.

The fact that some people believe that they "need" a new car is testament to how sophistacated and successful the full car sales process is.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

Someone who said it earlier... I agree with... if one of the first
things out of someone's mouth is "What are your prices?" without
telling me much about what they are looking for and expecting, that
tells me that they are primarily concerned with how much it is
going to cost them. That is not the kind of client I want... call
it snobbish, or what not..

Click to expand...

And you should be happy to give them a price list. The sooner you can identify someone who is not a good candidate, the sooner you can turn your attention to better prospects.

BTW, I think it is a bad approach to think of these folks as "cheap". Better to just consider them poor prosepects.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

That is all well and good, and I understand people have budgets,
but doesnt change the fact that people are still cheap.

Click to expand...

"Cheap" is a value judgement from your point of view. Learn to look at things from the point of view of other people and I think you will do better with your sales. Doing so might open the door to discovering what they do value. And when you know that, then you have a better chance of showing how your product delivers what they value.

NewYawkSeahawk said:

Im sure I could take a few sales courses but that wont change the
fact that someone calling asking for prices upfront is more than
likely cheap.

Click to expand...

My suggestion is to stay in your salaried position. I don't think you are yet ready to head out on your own and be happy.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

Frank from AZ said:

So is leather, so is a sunroof, so is a GPS unit, so is the next
model up. Anything above a KIA Spectra is luxury for that matter.

Click to expand...

You are being generous. Anything above a two year old Kia Spectra is a luxury. For a private person in today's market, virtually all new car purchase are luxury purchases.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

Paul H46473 said:

People aren't necessarily "cheap", but they do have their own
priorties and subjective values. Or have I missed some important
discovery over the last few years, such as a new science that lets
people say for certain that a $250.00 portait from "Le Effete Photo
Studio" is 30% more aesthetically pleasing than a $50 portrait from
Sears? Photographers need to take their noses out of the air, held
high to avoid the odor of the Great Unwashed, and realize that
those artless louts who "don't value photography" are actually the
atoms from which the free market is formed.

A photography studio is a business and owners should "start likin'
it". Try to get a business loan solely on the strength of your
vision and artistic sensibilities. When you're turned down, you
can start a new thread titled "Why are bankers so insensitive?"

Click to expand...

--

Well this is all good stuff, which makes me thankful I don't have to rely on photography clients to survive.... Places like Sears and JC Penny make their money on standardized stock and volume. Also, the fact that their studios are almost always placed right next to the children's clothing department greatly adds to their likelihood to make more money on a apparel sale than a print sale....

I think some of you who have been so quick to knock me fail to realize that I said I a just starting out, as in the past month taking on my own clients. I havent been doing this very long in terms as a business, nor am I doing this as my primary means of employment or finances.... It is something I enjoy doing, something that could put some extra money towards investing in a studio.... but I am not going to spend 2 hours worth of time travelling to someone's location, setting up studio lights and backdrops just to compete with a $50 Sears session.... that's just a decision I have made for myself... there is nothing wrong with someone who does compare themselves with the Sears Studio.

As I initially said... I am bulilding this up gradually.... who knows... I could hate doing business for myself... it's not for everyone. I could be a great artist, and I could be a great business person.... but when I am relying on money for survival.... for me, I am more comfortable counting on a steady check from a corporation, than scraps here and there from people who might compare me with the kind of stock service you will get at Sears.

“I charge based upon my experience, skill level and what my time is worth.”

I don’t know what your skill/experience level is. Unfortunately, photography is a very competitive field. What a photographer’s services are “worth” has to be compared with the going rate from other professionals who can provide the same level of service. Even more unfortunately, many clients do not require or would even recognize the very best in photographic services if they looked at it.

Until a photographer establishes a prominent (local – national – international) name in the field; he is competing (price-wise) against everyone: from experts to the person who just picked up his or her first DSLR with a kit lens.

“Do you just take jobs on and lower your prices if someone says your too expensive?”

I did not usually have that problem. I always knew what were the going rates for photographic services in my area. I never lowballed but, my prices were usually competetive.

When I shot commercially, I always kept track of the prices other photographers charged. If I placed my prices too much above the general average, I would seldom get new business (except from word of mouth advertising from previous customers.) Many clients will price shop, not necessarily choosing the very lowest price but also; not choosing the highest price (despite the higher quality).

If I hear that I am considered “too expensive” often enough – I should listen to the feedback. Remember the old saying: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck; it probably is a duck!

--

Retired Navy Master Chief Photographer's Mate - 30 years service. Combat Cameraman, Motion Picture Director and Naval Aircrewman. I have done considerable comercial photography including advertising, weddings and portraiture.

To be perfectly honest and probably somewhat nasty regarding your statement "build up a nice portfolio."

If you do not already have a "nice portfolio"; your work, to prospective customers, is no better than uncle Frank with his brand new untested Rebel XT and kit lens.

A "nice portfolio" is the minimum requirement for a professional photographer. If you don't have one, you may have to just lowball your work until you achieve a portfolio that demands a higher paycheck!

People shopping for a wedding photographer want to see samples of wedding photographs (not flowers, scenics or street shots). The same goes for product photography or any other type of photography. The only way to get the portfolio is to shoot - shoot and shoot some more...

Richard Crowe said:

To be perfectly honest and probably somewhat nasty regarding your
statement "build up a nice portfolio."

If you do not already have a "nice portfolio"; your work, to
prospective customers, is no better than uncle Frank with his brand
new untested Rebel XT and kit lens.

A "nice portfolio" is the minimum requirement for a professional
photographer. If you don't have one, you may have to just lowball
your work until you achieve a portfolio that demands a higher
paycheck!

People shopping for a wedding photographer want to see samples of
wedding photographs (not flowers, scenics or street shots). The
same goes for product photography or any other type of photography.
The only way to get the portfolio is to shoot - shoot and shoot
some more...

Click to expand...

forgive me.... I did not use the corrent terminology.

I was referring to building up a nice portfolio of clients... as in a nice client base and gathering some name recognition.

I already have more than enough diversity in my artistic portfolio to more than encompass the type of photography I want to do for clients (portraits, events, corporate... NO weddings although i do have a few weddings in my portfolio)

thank you for the correction.

a friend of mine who frequents this forum... just pointed out to me that I was leaving out one very important piece that might help put this in perspective...

the past 2 weeks I have gotten several calls from the same type of person... and it is this type of person I am referring to as in being cheap.

I had actually asked last week about how other people would price out this type of job..

I have been getting several calls lately from people in music bands... Why? I have no idea... I don't specialize in that, nor do I have that listed in my promotional site.....

and as several on the other thread I made pointed out to me... people in bands are cheap when it comes to photography.... I apologize for not being as specific.

I have gotten several jobs in just a 3-4 week time since announcing myself as doing client work, and already I have set up several sponsorships with companies, charities or events in my local area to help promote and get my name out there.... that direction has been successful.

Maybe the person you are trying to sell to is very skilled at what they do but only get paid $20/hr, so they feel that it's not worth paying $150/hr.

You are an unknown quantity. You may have to work cheap until you build a reputation.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

I get emails from people who see my wildlife prints (on display where I work) asking how much i charge for a copy. When I reply with $30 for an 11x14 I never here from them again. I'm starting to think I should ask $300 and maybe they will think it's an investment.

People in my area are cheap, I feel sorry for anyone who has to work for tips in this podunk town.
--

http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

You heading is spot on. Why are we wasting time over the complaints of a man who has a well-paid job and now wants to boost his ego with some sort of pretension to creativity - and get paid for it too? I'd love people to buy more of my stock pictures but that means I'll just have to get out there, think smarter and take better shots. I have no doubt that the people who sell better than I do just do the job better.
--
Laurie Strachan

Hi,

This is a little oversimplified, but there are two basic catagories of clientel in the photo business....Consumers and Business clients.

A business that knows the value of quality photography will pay a reasonable fee, and understand that it's the cost of doing business, and producing quality marketing.

The general public,(the consumer), is generally clueless, and the best salesman wins.

Try to stay in the commercial catagory of pro photography, and avoid the consumer if possible.

Cheers!

Most of the musicians / singing groups that I have known have never made to the big time. They are just struggling local bands and song groups.

Wouldn't it be nice though, to have the first shots of a group that become famous a-la The Beatles or Grateful Dead!
--

Retired Navy Master Chief Photographer's Mate - 30 years service. Combat Cameraman, Motion Picture Director and Naval Aircrewman. I have done considerable comercial photography including advertising, weddings and portraiture.

Laurie Strachan said:

You heading is spot on. Why are we wasting time over the complaints
of a man who has a well-paid job and now wants to boost his ego
with some sort of pretension to creativity - and get paid for it
too? I'd love people to buy more of my stock pictures but that
means I'll just have to get out there, think smarter and take
better shots. I have no doubt that the people who sell better than
I do just do the job better.
--
Laurie Strachan

Click to expand...

--
Are you kidding me?

This is why i rarely post on this site anymore... it is filled with snobs like yourself.

Everyone is in a different situation than the next person, and I was merely explaining my currect situation so people could understand where I was coming from with my question.

I dont need anyone to boost my ego I was just asking if anyone else shared a similar experience as me based on my own individual circumstances.

I am sorry that you Can't Understand Normal Thinking!

tbcass said:

You are an unknown quantity. You may have to work cheap until you
build a reputation.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

Click to expand...

Thanks Tom....

I understand what you are saying, but I dont want to go down that path...

I took a good "starting your own photography business" seminar a few months ago and the person hit the nail head on.... If you take the approach of starting out cheap just to get some initial business... that is how you will be known as.... a cheap budget photographer, so everyone will refer you to your friends as a cheap budget photographer, and once you get known as that it will be next to impossible to break out of it and start charging 2x as much down the road.

I would rather be a snob and have my ego stroked as Laurie so nicely pointed out, and be selective about the jobs I take on, that be a cheap budget photographer just for the same of getting jobs.