Fujifilm F-series vs. other Fuji's with Super CCD

Why is that only the F-10/11/future 30 get all the attention for high-ISO quality etc.?

Doesn't Fuji make other cameras with the Super CCD sensor in them? Or am I missing something?

Your missing the fact that the F10/11/30 series has the largest sensor in its 'compact' class... regardless of brand (always check out the specs for the cams for sensor size). Hence larger surface area per pixel, more sensitive to light, less noise. You are missing the fact that the other Super CCD cams Fuji makes are ultracompacts, have smaller sensors (in all cases), or are pure point and shoot + more zoom cams. High image quality @ 800-1600 is reserved for the F10/F11/F30 compacts.

pookguy88 said:

Why is that only the F-10/11/future 30 get all the attention for
high-ISO quality etc.?

Doesn't Fuji make other cameras with the Super CCD sensor in them?
Or am I missing something?

Click to expand...

Just like the Canon 5D, with a full frame sensor, has lower noise at high ISO than a 20D

The Fuji digicams released in the past few years have used five different sized CCDs (irrespective of whether they are Super CCDs or "normal"). The largest sensor seems to be on the S9500/9000 and E900. It's a fifth generation Super CCD (1/1.6"). This makes it 0.625 sq inches in area, giving it a pixel density around 14.56 Mp/sq inch on these 9.1Mp cameras.

The second largest sensor is 1/1.7" or 0.588 sq inches in area. This size of CDD was used on quite a range of cameras (A600, F610, F700, F710, F810, E550, F10, F11, F30, S20Pro, S602z) with most of them 6.0 - 6.1 Mp giving a pixel density of 10.20 - 10.37 Mp/sq inch. (The F700/710 was only 3.1 Mp giving a density of 5.27 Mp/sq in).

The 3rd largest sensor was used on the S3 pro DSLR. At 23 x 15.5mm this equates to 0.533 sq inches, and since this was only a 6.1 Mp camera, the pixel density is 11.03 Mp/sq inch.

Next comes the 1/2.5" sensor (0.4 sq inches) as used on the A345, A350, A400, A450, E500, E510, F440, F450, F455, F470, F650, Z1, Z2, & S5600/5200). These cameras range from 4.0 to 6.0 Mp giving pixel densities of 10 - 15 Mp/sq inch.

The smallest sensor is the 1/2.7" (=0.37 sq inches) as used on the A120, A205, A330, A340, F420, S300, S3500, S5000. These cameras range from 1.9 to 4.2 Mp giving a pizel density on the CCD of 5.14 - 11.35 Mp/sq inch.

If all else is equal (and of course it's not because some sensors have interpolation and cameras vary in their internal image processing and compression etc. not to mention optical quality of the lens), a larger CDD (or one with a lower pixel density) should perform better than a smaller one or one where the pixels are really packed in there. Cameras like the F650 and F470 have quite small CCDs for their 6Mp so are up around 15Mp/sq inch and the S9500/E500 is only marginally better (although the CCD is bigger, there are 9.1 Mp to fit on it). With the 1/1.6" CCD that the S9500 has I'd bet it would have had unsurpassed image quality if it was a 6Mp camera (but then who'd have bought it in a market where the number of Mp seems to be the main consideration?)

It seems to me that 10 - 11 Mp per square inch of CDD (or less) has the potential to produce the optimum image quality. Cameras like the F10, F11, F30 and S3 Pro are examples that might support that contention (although I have no experience with any of those models). The S602z (which I have) is perhaps another example. The S5900 (which I also have) at nearly 15 Mp/sq inch does a great job at low ISO but has more noise at higher ISOs that the F10 - F30 because (I suspect) the separate pixel elements on the CDD interfere with one another due to their being much closer together. This becomes more of a problem as exposure times increase or at high ISOs.

Clearly, this is a very simplistic analysis but I think it goes a long way towards explaining some of the performance differences between cameras with different sensors. Of course I could be wrong

John Stark

John Stark said:

The Fuji digicams released in the past few years have used five
different sized CCDs (irrespective of whether they are Super CCDs
or "normal"). The largest sensor seems to be on the S9500/9000 and
E900. It's a fifth generation Super CCD (1/1.6"). This makes it
0.625 sq inches in area, giving it a pixel density around 14.56
Mp/sq inch on these 9.1Mp cameras.

The second largest sensor is 1/1.7" or 0.588 sq inches in area.
This size of CDD was used on quite a range of cameras (A600, F610,
F700, F710, F810, E550, F10, F11, F30, S20Pro, S602z) with most of
them 6.0 - 6.1 Mp giving a pixel density of 10.20 - 10.37 Mp/sq
inch. (The F700/710 was only 3.1 Mp giving a density of 5.27 Mp/sq
in).

The 3rd largest sensor was used on the S3 pro DSLR. At 23 x 15.5mm
this equates to 0.533 sq inches, and since this was only a 6.1 Mp
camera, the pixel density is 11.03 Mp/sq inch.

Next comes the 1/2.5" sensor (0.4 sq inches) as used on the A345,
A350, A400, A450, E500, E510, F440, F450, F455, F470, F650, Z1, Z2,
& S5600/5200). These cameras range from 4.0 to 6.0 Mp giving pixel
densities of 10 - 15 Mp/sq inch.

The smallest sensor is the 1/2.7" (=0.37 sq inches) as used on the
A120, A205, A330, A340, F420, S300, S3500, S5000. These cameras
range from 1.9 to 4.2 Mp giving a pizel density on the CCD of 5.14

• 11.35 Mp/sq inch.

John Stark

Click to expand...

Hi John,

Sorry, but you are mistaken as to the meaning of the numerical designations. The designations of 1/1.7 or 1/1.6 or 1/2.7 does not directly relate to the size of the sensor. Even if it did, you cannot perform the operation (1 divided by 1.7 for example) and end up with the area of the sensor.

Let us assume we are talking about a 1/1.7" sensor. 1/1.7" inches is in fact an approximation of part of a CRT from the good old television (yeah, don't ask why we use it for sensor size). The real sensor size in width to height would be about 7.60mm by 5.7mm.

Designated size
"1/1.7"

Width-mm
7.60

Height-mm
5.7

converted to inches: mm / 25.4mm per in

Width-in
0.299

Height-in
0.224

Area-in
0.067

As you see, the square inch area is actually REALLY small, around 1/15th of a square inch in size, and far different from the .588 that you get by performing the operation 1 divided by 1.7. This also gives about 94MP per square inch for the current F series (6.3 million divided by .067 sqr in). The Fuji s3 would have an sensor area of .553 (23mm x 15.5mm, converted to in.) square inches. This makes the s3's sensor about 9 times as large in area, and having about 11Mp per square inch (6.1 million divided by .553 sqr in.).

As I said before, you cannot even use the size designations to tell you what the area of the sensor is. This website explains it in good detail here:

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/sensor_sizes_01.htm

Check it out.
--
S9000, Gimp, S7RAW, Neat Image
Proponent of free software

Thanks for your cordial and informative response. I did say at the end of my post that I could be wrong How true that was!
John Stark

Cubensis said:

Your missing the fact that the F10/11/30 series has the largest
sensor in its 'compact' class... regardless of brand (always check
out the specs for the cams for sensor size). Hence larger surface
area per pixel, more sensitive to light, less noise. You are
missing the fact that the other Super CCD cams Fuji makes are
ultracompacts, have smaller sensors (in all cases), or are pure
point and shoot + more zoom cams. High image quality @ 800-1600 is
reserved for the F10/F11/F30 compacts.

Click to expand...

Sometimes Fuji might just want to throttle things back for marketing pehaps. The new A600 appears to have the same sensor as the F10. ie same size- same pixel count- and also super ccd. Surely Fuji dosn't have two of these.......I would asume that the A600 is aimed at a diferent market and being a cheaper camera I wouldn't think that they would want it haveing the same capabilities as the F10. The A600 only goes to iso400.
Even if its the old sensor from the F810 it still has a truncated iso range.

Darin

Also the new F650 has a new super ccd 6mp sensor that is only 1/2.5" that only goes to iso 400. Surely this is a knobbled version the the same sensor that will come out soon in the s5200/5600 replacement..

It's not just the sensor I suppose but the rest of the package as well and I wouldn't think Fuji would want their lower range cameras competing with thier higher end ones.

Tianium said:

Also the new F650 has a new super ccd 6mp sensor that is only
1/2.5" that only goes to iso 400. Surely this is a knobbled version
the the same sensor that will come out soon in the s5200/5600
replacement..

It's not just the sensor I suppose but the rest of the package as
well and I wouldn't think Fuji would want their lower range cameras
competing with thier higher end ones.

Click to expand...

This camera has a standard ccd.

OOOPS

See this site for all of Fujis latest and what CCDs they have

http://home.fujifilm.com/products/digital/lineup/performance.html#sss

Cheers Darin