Shutter speed

GrahamRobinson

Well-known member
Messages
168
Reaction score
0
Location
US
Reading dpreview has inspired me to actually try post-processing. I'm still learning, but I've bought a few books and I'm getting there. I'm using Kim's Neat Image workflow, in addition to a number of adjustments I've learned from the Scott Kelby book. My current camera is a Canon S400, which I'm planning to replace.

I'm leaning heavily toward the Fuji F30 as a replacement, because of the ISO performance, but I do need to consider the Canon SD700 as well (I should note that my wife is opposed to the Fuji because she knows the Canon brand name, but ultimately the camera purchase will be my decision). For fun, I've cranked my S400 up to ISO 400, set it to low sharpening, and taken a bunch of pictures. I actually think that the results look decent, but to my surprise my wife is complaining when she sees my 4x6 prints that they are too "grainy". I can see the noise if I look closely, but I think the better lighting more than makes up for it. In any case, I think the higher ISO performance of a F30 will likely make this a far less significant issue.

With my S400, I find that at ISO 400 most of the pictures I'm taking get shutter speeds of either 1/15 of 1/30. Since I'm handholding, I'm needing to really brace myself to get a decent shot. Even still, there's some camera shake, although if I brace myself well in a 4x6 it looks pretty good. I don't really have a subject movement issue at those speeds. I do expect that at a higher shutter speed, or with image stabilization, I would notice a sharper image. I would like to get my shutter speed up to 1/60.

If it's true that image stabilization gives two stops of shutter speed flexibility with respect to camera shake (and I would be interested to hear about disagreement on that point, as I've been trying to see if that's clear or not). As a result, it seems to me that my current 1/15 shots at ISO 400 I would probably shoot at 1/60 at ISO 1600 on the F30, or 1/15 at ISO 400 on the SD700. My current 1/30 shots I would probably shoot at 1/60 at ISO 800 on the F30, and 1/15 at ISO 200 on the SD700. Basically, if IS gives two stops, then on the Canon I would be using a slower shutter speed and two stops lower ISO (we're assuming my subject isn't moving much, which it generally isn't).

So really, it's comparing ISO 400 on the SD700 to ISO 1600 on the Fuji, and ISO 200 on the SD700 to ISO 800 on the Fuji. Note that I am assuming ISO is equal on both cameras, which I've read in some places on this site may be in question, but I'm ignoring that issue because I suspect any difference is likely far less than a stop.

Working from the starting point that post-processed ISO 400 images from my S400 show too much noise for my wife in 4x6 prints, my sense from reading dpreview is that post-processed ISO 400 images from the SD700 may also be too noisy for her, whereas she might be okay with post-processed ISO 1600 images from the F30. But I am looking for some help from owners of the current F10 as to whether they think I'm right about that. I've seen fabulous pictures by Kim and Poochdp, but their subjects are very different than mine (and their pictures far more artistic), so I want to be sure I'm not overestimating what the ISO 1600 shots are going to look like for me.

I suspect the ISO 200 on the SD700 versus ISO 800 on the F30 might be a closer call, but still I would think the F30 will look noticeably, not just a little, better. My sense is also that at least at ISO 800, with Neat Image applied, my wife is likely to be very happy with the 4x6 prints. Let me know if anyone thinks I need to be warned away from this position.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. My wife is saying it's my choice and she trusts me to find the right camera, but she really doesn't want to see any noticeable noise in 4x6 prints. I don't want to wind up having to return the camera (and have my wife tell me she told me so!), so in particlar if anyone thinks I'm hoping for too much from the high ISO performance on the F30, please let me know!

I will try to post a sample of my S400 shots in a subsequent message.
 
I know that these phoots don't have great color. These were my first effort at post-processing -- I learned a lot, but didn't seem to get the hang of color correction until the last one I did (the one with my wife's face in the background, first posted below). So assume I'll learn to do better with color (and to be fair, the ISO 400 images on my S400 were in pretty bad shape when I started with them). Also, the third one below has some camera shake. I wasn't bracing myself well there, I was trying to get my daughter's attention with one hand while shooting with the other.

http://www.pbase.com/dgrahamr/image/58336957

http://www.pbase.com/dgrahamr/image/58336958

http://www.pbase.com/dgrahamr/image/58336956
 
That's why they are adding iso1600 and 3200 for people to not get blurry pictures in low light.

Canon has at least 2 newer models with image stabilization that probably gives about 2 stops better shutter speed. What this means is that if without IS (image stabilization) and highest ISO your shutter speed is 1/15, turning IS on would give you 1/60 (1 stop would give you 1/30)

So you might look at Canon's IS P&S cameras instead of high iso cameras from Fuji.
 
Further to Graham's post, is it fair to say that the F-30 at ISO 1600 or 3200 (w/o O.I.S.) can take a blur free image in an equivalent low light condition as Canon's SD700 at ISO 800 with O.I.S.? I am trying to decide between the 2 cameras and am primarily interested in which would best allow me to take handheld indoor shots without a flash. If Canon's O.I.S. gives 2 stops faster shutter speed, wouldn't that also be true of the F30 at ISO 1600 or 3200? I guess I don't fully understand the trade off between high ISO and O.I.S. and am hoping someone can help me understand. Thanks!
--
Robert D Goldstein
 
I know the Fujis don't have IS. I'm comparing the benefit of IS (on the Canon) to the far better high ISO performance. In my home, the lighting seems to allow exposures of ISO 200 with a camera with IS, or ISO 800 for a camera without, or alternatively in the darker portions, ISO 400 vs. ISO 1600. My sense is that the ISO 800/1600 images on the Fuji, with some Neat Image and other reasonably simple post processing, will look better than the ISO 200/400 images from the Canon when printed at 4x6. Remember that I'm shooting indoor family shots. What I'm looking for is Fuji users who can confirm my understanding that the high-ISO performance is as good as I think it is, so I don't make a mistake (because if I buy the Fuji, I'm doing it with my wife saying, "OK, but you had better be right!").
 
... there is a difference. As I understand IS, it gives you "Upto" 2 stops. If you shake, you shake. At what point will the IS not compensate ? I'm not sure, but it seems analog to me ... shake will be in image, if camera shake exits. So the image stability depends upon the shooter.

With ISO 3200, the camera is pretty much the controlling factor ... a fast shot is a fast shot. So it seems to me the basic phograhic factors of shutter speed and avaiable light are the factors involved, not whether or not I have some camera shake.

If the above is correct, then I prefer to rely upon Fuji technology to keep my images sharp and in focus.
--
Good luck, and ...

Happy Shooting !

Mike Chinnock
 
High iso shots on P&S cameras are noisey. I would rather have an iso800 shot than a iso3200 shot. Yes - 2 stop better than iso3200 is iso800.

So you'd be able to get an iso800 shot with Canon IS (no O.I.S.) would have to be taken with a Fuji at iso3200. The lower the iso the better the image quality.
 
..is "anti-blur" technology which is just faster shutter speeds at high iso.

IS compensates for shakes. If you can get a shot without bluring at 1/60 shutter speed, what IS will allow is for you to take a shot a 1/15 shutter speed ( 2 stops better).
 
"So really, it's comparing ISO 400 on the SD700 to ISO 1600 on the Fuji, and ISO 200 on the SD700 to ISO 800 on the Fuji. Note that I am assuming ISO is equal on both cameras, which I've read in some places on this site may be in question, but I'm ignoring that issue because I suspect any difference is likely far less than a stop."

No, this is not correct. You are comparing ISO 400 to ISO 1600 and expecting a reasonable comparison... which indicates you assume that OIS is equivalent to a fast shutter speed... which it is not by any means. Perhaps 400 to 800 would be more accurate, and I would still take the F10/F11/F30 over your Canon. Unless you have some really bad shakes there is no reason you shouldn't be able to shoot @ 1/30. Simply put the Canon cannot compete image-quality wise.

There also seems to be some sort of myth that Fuji F-series is only better in low light as far as noise is concerned.... VERY untrue. It is cleaner at ALL ISO's... and the only line of cams that shoots ISO 800+ @ full resolutions. I don't see the Canon competing at any level... except brand name.
 
High iso shots on P&S cameras are noisey. I would rather have an
iso800 shot than a iso3200 shot. Yes - 2 stop better than iso3200
is iso800.

So you'd be able to get an iso800 shot with Canon IS (no O.I.S.)
would have to be taken with a Fuji at iso3200. The lower the iso
the better the image quality.
Your logic makes sense, which is why I am having such a difficult time deciding between the SD700IS and Fuji F30. From everything I have read, the F30 will probably be cleaner (or as clean) at ISO 3200 than the SD700IS will be at at 800. I know the cameras have not yet been released, so nobody really knows how noisy the Canon will be at ISO 800, but it will have a smaller sensor which does not bode well. I guess I will just have to wait for the cameras to be released and read some reviews to see if the SD700 has relatively clean shots at a high ISO. I really wish the F30 had O.I.S. as that would make my decision so much easier!
--
Robert D Goldstein
 
.. $100 to $200 more. Most likely iso800 on Canon's would be about where iso400 was on previous Canon P&S cameras.
 
High ISO shots on the Fuji F10 are (based on the samples I've seen) dramatically better than shots at lower ISOs on other cameras. The F30 is supposed to be better still. What I'm looking for help from F10/F11 owners on is how close they think their performance is to lower ISO performance on other cameras. For example, there are great photos by Kim and Pooch linked from this forum. But those pictures tend to be taken of objects more than people, and many of them are in low light outdoor settings. I don't know whether my indoor low light family pictures are more likely to produce higher levels of noise. I sometimes see posters on this forum correctly remind people that "you can't expect everything from a P&S." My plan is to buy the F30 instead of the SD700 because I think the high ISO performance will be worth more than the IS for me. That means my indoor snapshots looking better at ISO 1600 than on the Canon at ISO 400 (because I could probably get two stops of shutter speed help from IS). There's an added advantage that the F30 would, at higher ISO, freeze action better, but my photos don't tend to have much action. I just want to make sure people who know the F10/F11 don't read this and say, "This guy is in for a disappointment, he's expecting too much."
 
I might misunderstand, so let me know if I do. If IS gives two stops of shutter speed help (which is what I've read, perhaps that is the point you disagree with), then assuming ISO values are equal, if the shot can be at 1/30 and ISO 800 on the Fuji, then I could shoot it at 1/8 and ISO 200 on the Canon (assuming my subject isn't going to blur at 1/8, which is probably true but might be pushing it at speeds below 1/15). I agree that IS isn't the same as fast shutter speed, to the extent you're talking about a subject moving enough to create blur. But where your subject isn't moving enough, if IS gives you two stops, then you're comparing two stops slower shutter speed and lower ISO, to two stops higher shutter speed and higher ISO.

I think you said you would take the Fuji's performance at the two stops difference (so the 800 would be better than the 200), and that's consistent with what I've read elsewhere on this board. Let me know if you think I'm missing anything, I think I am not but could be wrong.

Understood that the Fuji has better quality at lower ISOs as well, but I must admit that I'm not a discriminating enough photographer to notice. For my snapshots, ISO 100 on both cameras looks about the same (in the hands of better photographers, I can see the difference from the pictures I've seen up here, but not for what I shoot). Where noise has been a problem for me is in higher ISO shots. In fact, today, my wife threw away a set of pictures I took at ISO 400 with my old Canon S400 (which had been processed with Neat Image and I thought cleaned up pretty well). She said they're just too "grainy" for her. She's convinced I'm making a mistake with the Fuji, but I think she doesn't understand how good the Fuji seems to be at high ISO levels.
 
Camera shake is not an issue when your shutter speed is over 1/30s. If you have steady hands, you can even go much slower.

If you are taking group pictures with little kids, which unlike adults, never keep perfectly still, with shutter speed below 1/60s, you are risking blurry pics when not using flash.

No one has seen full-res iso3200 sample images from the F30, if the quality is on par with iso1600 from the F10, then the quality should compare quite favorably to iso800 from the Canon.

"IF" iso3200 image quality holds up, the F30 will compensate for the lack of I.S. and match the Canon when it comes to shooting static subjects in low-light and holds a 2-stop advantage when it comes to shutter speed. Imagine 1/100s from the SD700 vs 1/400s from the F30, that is a huge difference. This only holds true if iso3200 delivers.

curtis
..is "anti-blur" technology which is just faster shutter speeds at
high iso.

IS compensates for shakes. If you can get a shot without bluring
at 1/60 shutter speed, what IS will allow is for you to take a shot
a 1/15 shutter speed ( 2 stops better).
--
=======================================
S5200/F700 camera test gallery:

http://curtisfun.myphotoalbum.com/albums.php

Personal Gallery

http://www.pbase.com/curtisfun
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top