DMC-TZ1 Photos and Questions

I'm a ps photographer. I took some quick photos with a DMC-TZ1 and Canon SD500. Orignal res at:

http://wheresbob.smugmug.com/gallery/1342095/1

Questions:

1. The TZ1 was out of focus 3 times, mostly closer shots. The autofocus system must have been confused but the SD500 never was. Why is that? Should I be concerned?

2. The CNET review of the TZ1 says the zoom is 10x at 5MP and 12.5x at 3MP. Is 12.5x a real optical number or a digital enhancement of 10x? How is it that there is a difference in zoom between resolutions?

Other than several closer shots being out of focus. I can't perceive an image quality or flash difference between the TZ1 and SD500.

BSalita said:

I'm a ps photographer. I took some quick photos with a DMC-TZ1 and
Canon SD500. Orignal res at:

http://wheresbob.smugmug.com/gallery/1342095/1

Questions:
1. The TZ1 was out of focus 3 times, mostly closer shots. The
autofocus system must have been confused but the SD500 never was.
Why is that? Should I be concerned?

Click to expand...

Judging from your gallery & EXIFs, your "out of focus" shots resulted from your shooting at full zoom. I don't know what the minimum distance is for AF at full zoom, but I'm sure you were closer than the minimum. Comparing with the shorter-focal length SD500 under those conditions isn't a fair comparison; the TZ1 will also focus closer at shorter focal lengths.

BSalita said:

2. The CNET review of the TZ1 says the zoom is 10x at 5MP and 12.5x
at 3MP. Is 12.5x a real optical number or a digital enhancement of
10x? How is it that there is a difference in zoom between
resolutions?

Click to expand...

Since the 3MP image is a crop of the 5MP image sensor, Panasonic takes advantage of this fact, allowing an "Extended Zoom" range. It's truly an optical number, not a "digital enhancement of 10X."

BSalita said:

Other than several closer shots being out of focus. I can't
perceive an image quality or flash difference between the TZ1 and
SD500.

Click to expand...

Enjoy your new camera! One is supposedly en route to me.
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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

Yes, I was zoomed out all the way. I didn't understand that AF isn't spec'ed for the entire zoom range. Thank you.

Regarding your explanation of 12.5x zoom, does it mean I get the same quality image at 12.5x zoom at 3MP as I do croping a 10x zoom at 5MP?

BSalita said:

Yes, I was zoomed out all the way. I didn't understand that AF
isn't spec'ed for the entire zoom range. Thank you.

Click to expand...

AF works over the entire zoom range, but the minimum distance at which it will focus grows with focal length. So if you're not getting an AF lock, either reduce the zoom, or back away from the subject, and you'll then get a lock.

BSalita said:

Regarding your explanation of 12.5x zoom, does it mean I get the
same quality image at 12.5x zoom at 3MP as I do croping a 10x zoom
at 5MP?

Click to expand...

Yes. The 3MP image produced at full 12.5X zoom of a given subject will be fully contained within a 5MP shot taken from the same position of the same subject, with no difference in quality, pixel for pixel. The advantage of the higher in-camera zoom is in being able to see the subject more closely in the field, and also getting more accurate exposure on your subject, with the smaller image field.

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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

BSalita said:

Questions:
1. The TZ1 was out of focus 3 times, mostly closer shots. The
autofocus system must have been confused

Click to expand...

At full zoom and less than 5 ft (if I remember correctly) the green dot will flash meaning it can't find the focus. Rotate the dial to Macro, and it will focus correctly.

"Since the 3MP image is a crop of the 5MP image sensor, Panasonic takes advantage of this fact, allowing an "Extended Zoom" range. It's truly an optical number, not a "digital enhancement of 10X.""

????? How's that an optical number? If optics were involved, then you would've mentioned the lense, not the sensor.

Although the above was written for the FZ30, the same principle applies here. The smaller sensor intercept, unaided, would give the TZ1 lens a zoom range from 43.75mm to 437.5mm, still only 10X. Panasonic, in its cleverness, extends the lower end down to 35mm by using the FULL sensor at 35mm, and downsampling the captured image from 5MP to 3MP, thus enabling the "low end."
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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

Clever marketing, but its not optical if your resolution decreases. I can extend my "optical" zoom in photoshop, then.

you are right and wrong

the TZ1 offers you optically

1) 5mp 10x zoom camera (35mm to 350mm)
2) 3mp 10x zoom camera (43.7mm to 437mm)

if the sensor were just 3mp then the lens spec changes due to a new crop factor

then they cleverly downsample at wide angle to give the effect of

3) 3mp 12.5x zoom (35mm to 437mm)

there is a benefit to "cropping" in camera it can allow for better smaller area (more localized) light metering
--
Mike from Canada



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=30&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

It's not just "clever marketing," it happens to WORK, and for those of us who prefer closer-up views and more accurate exposure in the field than we might be able to see later on on the computer, it's a boon.
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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

Simon sez "Having sat thru endless long presentations by Panasonic engineers on this matter I know what EZ 'extra optical zoom' is - and it's just cropping (yes it's well implemented, and it's quite clever but it's no different to shooting at full res and doing it yourself later), so there's nothing to 'review'!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=17280013 "

I myself was skeptical about the "countless hours of presentations," since I don't think either Panasonic or dpreview staff would have had such time allocated. Secondly, it's as I said, if you don't appreciate a closer view and more accurate exposure in the field, then stick with Photoshop for your own purposes. But just because this feature which is very popular and well-used amongst us FZ30 folks doesn't appeal to you (or Simon) is no reason to bad-mouth it at every turn. As I said, it works well, many of us use it, and get tired of hearing about how it's only a "gimmick."
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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

I guess Simon is lying about the presentation, huh?

This feature being popular/well used doesn't change the fact that it's not optical zoom. If the optics were 12.5x, it would've said so on the lense.
But it doesn't, hence the "optical zoom" claim is a gimmick.

No bad mouthing. Just facts. What does it say on your lense, by the way..?

John_Reed said:

I myself was skeptical about the "countless hours of
presentations," since I don't think either Panasonic or dpreview
staff would have had such time allocated. Secondly, it's as I said,
if you don't appreciate a closer view and more accurate exposure in
the field, then stick with Photoshop for your own purposes. But
just because this feature which is very popular and well-used
amongst us FZ30 folks doesn't appeal to you (or Simon) is no reason
to bad-mouth it at every turn. As I said, it works well, many of us
use it, and get tired of hearing about how it's only a "gimmick."
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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

Click to expand...

Since you posted the same thing twice
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=17940317

I noticed the problem with focusing on mine as well. At first I thought it was a defect. Then I began reading the manual.
Page 25:
Normal picture mode, wide: 40 cm to infinity, tele: 2m to infinity

Or, more aptly put, you're lucky if it focuses on something close if you zoom in. Sometimes putting in Macro mode seemed to help, I could zoom in maybe 7x and still focus on something a couple feet away (in this case, I tested on my foot). 8x it starts giving trouble. In Macro mode I could zoom all the way in. I'm not sure what the difference is internally, but it allows me to focus. That's what matters to me.

Let me also point out that page 51 says, in portrait mode, to zoom in "as far as possible" and "move close to the subject to make this mode more effective," so I take this as meaning that it may have better results in portrait mode. (Note that it's only recommended outdoors b/c it uses ISO80).

So yea, reading the manual helped a bit. Although I definitely do wish there was a manual focus, because so many times I've zoomed into something too close only to watch it focus on it and unfocus and then claim it can't focus on it. Although that was before reading about it and realizing that Macro mode seems to make quite a difference.

As far as the zoom, read pp 30-31 where it points out "when you set the picture size to 3M . . . the 5M CCD area is cropped to the center 3M . . . area, allowing a picture with higher zoom effect." They don't say you actually get 12.5x zoom, you just get the effect of it.

Stan

if you were to take a TZ1 remove the 6mp (5mp) 2.0 micron sensor and then put a 3mp 2.0 micron sensor in the crop factor will change... the optics numbers will change (well the equiv values) the 35mm values will stay the same...

its a 5.2mm to 52mm lens it will always be a 5.2mm to 52mm lens but you crop the sensor smaller you increase the crop factor... so the equiv numbers change

@ 5mp (2.0 micron) 5.2mm = 35mm equiv
@ 3mp (2.0 micron) 5.2mm = 43.7mm equiv

the 12.5x value is a clever gimmick but you still get what would appear to be longer zoom by cropping

infact using your logic you have to conclude that the FZ30 has a greator reach then the FZ20... both are 12x optical but if you ignore the crop factor then the FZ30 is an 88.8mm lens and the FZ20 is a 72mm lens... of course witht he crop factor then the FZ30 is a 420mm lens and the FZ20 is a 432mm lens... so which one has greator reach?
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Mike from Canada



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But I think the particular thread you pointed to had him at a level where he may have felt it necessary to exaggerate the "hours" he'd spent understanding the EZ technique. He may have even been responding to one of my questions about why the topic wasn't covered in the review.

And as I said before, and will patiently say again, I don't care if you or Simon don't think the feature is worthwhile, it is not disputing the facts to state that the EZ mode provides very real and useful benefits to those who choose to use it, as many do. Say what you like about being able to do the same thing in Photoshop, and you're not wrong on that, there's STILL a benefit to the closer field view, which you might appreciate if you did more wild bird shots? Peace, brother. Go with your opinions and be calm.
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EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

I am very calm. I've never argued the benefits of this feature or if its worthwhile or not. Thanks for the strawman.

It's still not optical zoom.

Stan LS said:

....This feature being popular/well used doesn't change the fact that
it's not optical zoom. If the optics were 12.5x, it would've said
so on the lense.
But it doesn't, hence the "optical zoom" claim is a gimmick.

Click to expand...

When a Canon user puts a f2.8, 300mm tele lens on their new D-SLR,that same lens now turns into a 480mm f2.8 lens!

No gimmick necessary.The smaller sensor changes the focal length,as compared to 35mm film .So now,you have to multiply 1.6,to every EOS lens you put in front of that AP-S sized sensor.

Also,When cropping later in PP,interpolation automatically happens.

Not so with Extended Optical Zoom .

Image stays at the lower resolution,(say 3MP)and is NOT interpolated back up to the original resolution,like cropping does,in PP

just my thoughts

ANAYV

ANAYV said:

Also,When cropping later in PP,interpolation automatically happens.

Not so with Extended Optical Zoom .
Image stays at the lower resolution,(say 3MP)and is NOT
interpolated back up to the original resolution,like cropping
does,in PP

Click to expand...

I don't know what pp program you use but any graphic editing program i know of doesn't interpolate when you crop... not one... never... nada... cropping is cropping is cropping... now resizeing is another story and definately not the same thing as cropping... if i take a 5mp image and crop 3mp out of it nothing is ever interpolated... each pixel is cropped one for one and only the pixels outside the crop are disgarded... the exact same way as EZ on the pannies... now the EZ on the pannies have a few other advantages that aren't as easy to perform in in post processing but its still cropping ... can you use EZ in raw mode?

--
Mike from Canada



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=30&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

Perhaps I'm wrong,Mike,about the auto interpolation,or I'm confusing this with something else.

I'll go with your answer,and think this one,for a moment

ANAYV