Flash Question and D30

Okey these questions are probably really dumb but here we go.

After getting a post starting on the 550ex I have come to the conclusion that it is not very reliable. But it is all I have and I don't really want to drop any more money than I have already.

If I want to shoot someone standing say 10 feet away, minimal surronding light. If I set the camera to 1/250 and F 4.0, will the flash on its own compensate for the manual setting (will it underexpose?) OR should I use a manual setting on the flash ( hoping to get more consistancy of flash). If manual flash any suggestions on settings 1/16 or what.... should I be using H-Sync because I am shooting 1/250. Or do I need to buy a light meter and figure it from there. Any Help would be appreciated.

Lens i am using is 50 1.4 if that makes any differance sometimes 70-200 2.8.

Jeremiah,

It's funny you should post this question. Not two hours ago, I posted this over in the pro forum...

"I'm just curious and I mean no offense with my post, but when I constantly hear numerous posts from both Nikon and Canon camps discussing TTL flash inconsistencies, I wonder why so many users even bother with it. For every post talking about "my works flawless", it seems there are just as many complaints. To add insult to injury, these TTL devices are VERY expensive. The Nikon flash for my D1 bodies (SB-28DX) runs about $400, and TTL works successfully, beautifully even, about 85% of the time. When I added the D30 to my equipment shelf, I bypassed the Canon flash, having somewhat regretted the expense of the Nikon, considering the results.

"My concern is that thyristor technology, built into even the cheapest flash you can buy at Walmat (Vivitar 1800 - $16, Sunpak 144 - $22), performs with exceptional consistency. Intelligent decisions can be made instantly, allowing even for perfectly-exposed fill-flash and mixed lighting shots that seem to often fool TTL. And even some form of automation is possible, with AV mode, which has been built into cameras for the past 20+ years. I'm NOT suggesting that a sub-$20 flash has all the capabilities of a 550EX. That's an amazing flash that offers adjustable manual, rotating head, zoom, plenty of power, and more. But it is amazing that such cheap technology seems to be so much more consistent. After all, I havn't read a post yet saying "my thyristor flash keeps underexposing my images".

With an 85% success rate, TTL mode flash would have resulted in hundreds of unusable shots for my studio during the past year. As it is, the only bad shots (rare) were because of things like recycling speeds. Yes, you sometimes have to adjust settings, but manual camera mode is nothing to be afraid of, especially when using a flash.

"So is it just me, or is TTL really offering me something that I'm totally missing out on? What TTL flash seems to offer at this time is great in theory, but a little less in practice.

Please illuminate me."

I also posted this over in Caplin's digital wedding forum. Just one person responded, and the message contained so many instructions about how to get good exposure using TTL is was ridiculous. (My thanks for the tips, however. I only suggest that it's ridiculous that one should have to perform so many operations for TTL mode!)

So again, what baffles me about TTL flash is that the "old" way wasn't broken in the first place. And it was cheap, too! And when you have to consider using a flash meter (if you don't already own one, there's an additional expense) just to measure the light that your $400 flash won't do properly, something is simply wrong. And every so often, I'll see a post from someone trying to use two or three of these things in a "studio"-type setup just because of the TTL, when a cheap (sub-$100) monolight will, under those conditions, perform as well if not better. After cabling, that's nearly a grand for something that could be done for a fraction of the cost with cheap pocket flash or monolights. And in practice, all we're really getting is an automatic aperture value! (And one that's inconsistent, depending on who you're talking to, at best.) Even "dedicated" technology worked more reliably!

As I said, I didn't buy the 550EX. After being burned on the Nikon, I decided to play it safe with technology that is proven, reliable, predictable, consistent -- and cheap. So I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. I will say that what works for my Nikon setup is to chose camera settings manually and use the flash in "A" (automatic --- NOT TTL) mode. This allows the flash to perform exactly like the good old reliable cheap flashes that we should be using in the first place!

M

Michael,

I agree totally. After buying a 5550EX, 420EX and ST-E2 and being totally frustrated with inconsistant results, I bought a used Sunpak 544 and can't believe the simplicity and consistency I now get. I may buy another, smaller auto flash to carry in place of the 420EX. With all this Canon flash stuff to sell I can buy another lens.

Jim

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

Jeremiah,

It's funny you should post this question. Not two hours ago, I
posted this over in the pro forum...

"I'm just curious and I mean no offense with my post, but when I
constantly hear numerous posts from both Nikon and Canon camps
discussing TTL flash inconsistencies, I wonder why so many users
even bother with it. For every post talking about "my works
flawless", it seems there are just as many complaints. To add
insult to injury, these TTL devices are VERY expensive. The Nikon
flash for my D1 bodies (SB-28DX) runs about $400, and TTL works
successfully, beautifully even, about 85% of the time. When I added
the D30 to my equipment shelf, I bypassed the Canon flash, having
somewhat regretted the expense of the Nikon, considering the
results.

"My concern is that thyristor technology, built into even the
cheapest flash you can buy at Walmat (Vivitar 1800 - $16, Sunpak
144 - $22), performs with exceptional consistency. Intelligent
decisions can be made instantly, allowing even for
perfectly-exposed fill-flash and mixed lighting shots that seem to
often fool TTL. And even some form of automation is possible, with
AV mode, which has been built into cameras for the past 20+ years.
I'm NOT suggesting that a sub-$20 flash has all the capabilities of
a 550EX. That's an amazing flash that offers adjustable manual,
rotating head, zoom, plenty of power, and more. But it is amazing
that such cheap technology seems to be so much more consistent.
After all, I havn't read a post yet saying "my thyristor flash
keeps underexposing my images".
With an 85% success rate, TTL mode flash would have resulted in
hundreds of unusable shots for my studio during the past year. As
it is, the only bad shots (rare) were because of things like
recycling speeds. Yes, you sometimes have to adjust settings, but
manual camera mode is nothing to be afraid of, especially when
using a flash.

"So is it just me, or is TTL really offering me something that I'm
totally missing out on? What TTL flash seems to offer at this time
is great in theory, but a little less in practice.

Please illuminate me."

I also posted this over in Caplin's digital wedding forum. Just one
person responded, and the message contained so many instructions
about how to get good exposure using TTL is was ridiculous. (My
thanks for the tips, however. I only suggest that it's ridiculous
that one should have to perform so many operations for TTL mode!)

So again, what baffles me about TTL flash is that the "old" way
wasn't broken in the first place. And it was cheap, too! And when
you have to consider using a flash meter (if you don't already own
one, there's an additional expense) just to measure the light that
your $400 flash won't do properly, something is simply wrong. And
every so often, I'll see a post from someone trying to use two or
three of these things in a "studio"-type setup just because of the
TTL, when a cheap (sub-$100) monolight will, under those
conditions, perform as well if not better. After cabling, that's
nearly a grand for something that could be done for a fraction of
the cost with cheap pocket flash or monolights. And in practice,
all we're really getting is an automatic aperture value! (And one
that's inconsistent, depending on who you're talking to, at best.)
Even "dedicated" technology worked more reliably!

As I said, I didn't buy the 550EX. After being burned on the Nikon,
I decided to play it safe with technology that is proven, reliable,
predictable, consistent -- and cheap. So I'm sorry I can't be more
helpful. I will say that what works for my Nikon setup is to chose
camera settings manually and use the flash in "A" (automatic ---
NOT TTL) mode. This allows the flash to perform exactly like the
good old reliable cheap flashes that we should be using in the
first place!

M

Click to expand...

I've never had problems with ETTL technology. I shoot with the D30 on manual, 1/200 and whatever aperture I want. That's it.

This works whether I use the 550 on camera, off camera, or with one 420 or two 420s. All three flashes always fire correctly, balance correct, and I don't get what the big deal is.

ETTL works -- if it doesn't I strongly suspect user error.

Mike,

I'm sure you get great results. Many users do. But, as I pointed out, many users do not. And of course, the whole point of TTL technology is to help eliminate "user error". You would think that simply mounting the flash and keeping the camera in P mode would do exactly that, yet users are having a great deal of inconsistency. I've been shooting professionally for 25 years, and I, too, have experienced the wild swings in exposure using the built-in flash in P mode during my tests. If I were sending my wife (who knows nothing about photography) off to a party with a camera, I wouldn't hesitate at all sending her with the D30 and a cheap Sunpak flash, with the camera in manual mode. ("Don't change these numbers and you'll be fine, dear!") I wouldn't expect half of dozen of her shots to be all that intereting (she has no sense of subject of composition), but they'd all be perfectly exposed.

The larger point is, then, WHY is there inconsistency amongst users? I can't simply write it all off as user error. And subsequently, do most users really need TTL flash when non-TTL has a such a fine proven history?

M

Mike Kelley said:

I've never had problems with ETTL technology. I shoot with the
D30 on manual, 1/200 and whatever aperture I want. That's it.

This works whether I use the 550 on camera, off camera, or with one
420 or two 420s. All three flashes always fire correctly, balance
correct, and I don't get what the big deal is.

ETTL works -- if it doesn't I strongly suspect user error.

Click to expand...

You raise some good points, Michael, but I don't know they're relevent to this thread.

The original poster was trying to figure out how to use his 550 with his D30. The answer is simple. As to why the D30 and ETTL doesn't work in an "idiotproof" mode isn't really important to that issue. It is not without interest, and I'm sure the tech folks at Canon would have some explanation for it (most like at Rob Galbraith's forum as that is the forum they frequent).

You're correct about not sending the wife off with a 550 -- my own wife has her own D30 (well, it was my backup :> ) and I really can't trust her with P mode -- she's strictly a green mode shooter. I also have to remind her to take the lens hood off the 28-135 if she shoots using the built-in flash -- now that's another thing she shouldn't have to worry about but there you have it.

I don't see the D30 with or without flash as being a camera for a novice to pick up and get great results from. It's possible, but it's also possible for a pro to get great results from a Brownie. But I'm educating my wife and someday she'll get it (and you might try as well with yours -- not to be a male pig about this sort of thing, but women can learn technology, and some of my best programmers are female. I think that, just like us with household duties, they tend to be resistent).

Jeremiah,

I personally do not like the 550EX because it is not consistant and I do not have the time to make it consistant.

I know a lot of guys have it, so rather than condem it, those that want to make it work need to have ideas to try. I am getting a 550EX to try over this weekend. I want to try some of the suggestions I heard plus do some more testing.

If you are not in a high pressure situation, or are not in a situation that firing the flash will ruin your candid shots, the first thing to do is FEL. FEL on the face of the focal person and then shoot the picture.

The second thing to try (I tried it and got better results but still had random off exposure shots) is setting the shutter to 200

Here are some shots I consider easy shots but still came out bad. A few of are actual shots, a few of them are just test shots around the house. Maybe they will be helpful to you. All are the original untouched shots except 1, for which I don't have the original anymore.

http://www.pbase.com/pgp777/flashtest

Pete

Peter Gregg said:

Here are some shots I consider easy shots but still came out bad.

Click to expand...

Pete,

I'm not sure whyyou consider some of these bad . Nearly all of them work just fine with a few seconds of adjustment of levels.

Is that why people assume flash shots are bad? Because they need levels adjustment? If so, then what we have here is a failure to communicate. I can't think of more than a handful of images any digital camera can produce that don't profit from levels adjustment. Some are more extreme than others, but as long as you have the lattitude not to blow out the highlights (and these images have that lattitude, thanks to the D30) there's no big deal.

I have to go to lunch and may not be back on the board until Monday, but I know there are many knowledgable folks here who can continue this helpful part of the thread (come on, guys, help me out here).

I had one last thought before I'm out of here (and may not be back until Monday, although I'll see if I can get on by Friday -- Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!).

No camera can be idiot proof when it comes to exposure, so I don't know why it bothers you, Michael, who is a pro who knows this. You know you can't send your wife out to photograph snow and have it come out automatically correct without exposure adjustment. You know you can't give your wife the D30 and tell her to make a nighttime shot that looks like it was actually shot at night, without adjusting the D30. You know this and many other things yet you expect a flash unit to make a perfect exposure everytime.

ETTL only does the same sorts of things any automatic system does -- it averages out for 18% gray levels. This isn't always correct (and may not be correct even the majority of times, depending upon what you're photographing). Let's fact it, folks, you have to remember to use your brain here -- no amount of automation can free you from that (otherwise we'd just send our cameras on vacation and enjoy the results when they came back).

If your Sunpak works better for you then it probably is more adjusted to what you're shooting -- those are sometimes the way things go, that choices are made in the manufactuer, just like the D30 was purposefully set not to oversharpen things. I think more power to you if you've found something that works. But don't denigrate the thousands (millions?) of others who have found Canon's ETTL to be just fine. It works for us, and can work for others (and it may well be your Sunpak solution would not work for me due to the way I shoot).

Remember, the best computer we all have is sitting on our shoulders. No equipment can take the place of it.

No Mike, that is not what i mean. When there are faces involved, the shots are more important obviously. I tried to show some shots where the ETTL easily was out done by the Auto flash. There is no excuse to have a frame misread that poorly by such an "excellent" system just shotong a stationary object. I am also not trying to put it down. It is just plain not reliable when my butt is on the line. I feel very uncomfortable with because I can't trust it. So many of my shots came out unusable that were taken at a few family parties. I tried to show some shots on this link so maybe someone could say - ah, here is what you are doing wrong Pete. But I really am not doing anything wrong. Tthe Auto Thriystor (Michael will teach me to spell it eventually) just does a better and more consistant job. Just raising the levels in PS is workaround, but what about the shots that are just plain unusable. I didn't save those, I wish I did now. There too many of them.

But still, you say it works great for you. Now the guy that has the 550EX and it isn't working great for him - what can HE do? One solution is to spend more money and just get out of that ETTL system. $80 buys you the Vivitar or Sunpak. Another choice is figure out enough work arounds so you have a good bag full of tricks at hand to use.

Pete

Mike Kelley said:

Peter Gregg said:

Here are some shots I consider easy shots but still came out bad.

Click to expand...

Pete,

I'm not sure whyyou consider some of these bad . Nearly all of
them work just fine with a few seconds of adjustment of levels.

Is that why people assume flash shots are bad? Because they need
levels adjustment? If so, then what we have here is a failure to
communicate. I can't think of more than a handful of images any
digital camera can produce that don't profit from levels
adjustment. Some are more extreme than others, but as long as you
have the lattitude not to blow out the highlights (and these images
have that lattitude, thanks to the D30) there's no big deal.

I have to go to lunch and may not be back on the board until
Monday, but I know there are many knowledgable folks here who can
continue this helpful part of the thread (come on, guys, help me
out here).

Click to expand...

Oh, I forgot to say Happy Thanksgiving back to you

Pete

I know I got a lot better with my 550EX after I learned a little about the priciples of a flash stobe. Using flash with an SLR is a little like using a low F-number lens, it can be very useful but you need to know what you are doing or you may get lousy results.

No doubt the ETTL system is not perfect. But a lot of the problems people are having are due to NOT understanding how to use the equipment.

First, understand that the Ambient Exposure is set by the Shutter Speed, F-number, and ISO. The flash strobe is a very bright and very short burst of light. It is UNAFFECTED by the shutter speed up to about 1/200th (I know know how High Speed Sync works above 1/200th, but it starts cutting down the light). Most SLRs, including the D30, set the ambient and flash exposures INDEPENDENTLY. The flash works by shutting itself off very quickly (thyristor or ETTL or buy a preset time in manual), much faster than any mechanical shutter could handle. THUS FLASH on an SLR is ALWAY a FILL flash.

SOMETHING has to turn off the flash. You can use a meter and make caluculations and set the time manually before hand. The thyristor controlled flash takes more of an averaging effect of the light coming straight back to the sensor on the flash. ETTL has sensors aimed at the focus spots.

If you set the camera in say Av Mode without the 1/200th CFn option set, the shutter speed will be very slow based on the ambient light and you will get a very blurry shot. Unless you are using a long lens, or are taking sports, you will usually get MUCH better pictures with a slower shutter speed than 1/200th (say 1/60th with an 50F1.4) to let in more ambient light (see the pointer to my other posting below)

You really need to think about what you are shooting and what shutter speed you are using. The more you can bounce/diffuse the flash and the more ambient like you can get in the scene the less harsh the flash will be.

Most problems with a flash are a direct result of the fact that a light source brightness falls off with the square of distance.

The first thing to understand is that light from a light source falls off with the square of the distance. If person A is 2 feet (2x2=4) from the flash and pers B is 8 feet (8x8=64) away, person A will get 64/4= 8 times more light than B if ALL the light is coming straight from the flash. ALL the problems with flash stem from this physics.

There are a few things that I know help.

1. Bouncing the flash. I like the lumaquest Pro system that lets one send 20% of the light forward and sends 80% out the sides and top. With bouncing the light is coming from all directions and thus the paths lenghts are different and the light is more uniform. One thing the Lumaquest pro solves over say just bouncing it off the ceiling is that you get some forward and side light and not just tops light.

2. Moving back. If in the prior example you move back 8 feet, then the Person at 2 feet is not 10 feet away and the person at 8 feet is now 16 feet. Thus the ratio is 256/100 = 2.56 different.

3. Get more ambient light in the picture - Think of the flash as ALWAYS fill flash when doing candids. In a studio, they use lots multiple flashes and diffusers to get all the light coming from the directions they want, but with candids this is not an option. Use the flash to fill rather than provide all the light. The flash has a VERY short duration, so the longer the shutter speed the more ambient you add to the scene. You can lower the F-number and raise the ISO to gain more ambient (the flash does not gain due to being shut off by the TTL sensor). Of course, lowering the F-number hurts the Depth of Field which can be a good thing for many shots, but not good for people sitting around a table. Getting more ambient, makes the scene look more natural as the light is more diffuse. One more thing, don't forget to turn on as many room lights as you can.

I think a lot of people probably overlook raising the ISO as this was not an option with Film and they think since the flash has so much light that they can use the lowest ISO. At ISO400 there is not much noise with a D30 and you have added 4 times the ambient light. Even at ISO800 or ISO1600 you can have a nice snapshot (on say a 4x6 print) after processing out the noise, but it will be pretty worthless and unfixable if the people are blown out in the forground at ISO100.

You can combined 1, 2, and 3 above depending on the situation. A year or so ago when I first got my D30, I got a lot of deer in headlights stand in the dark type of shots. Using these tricks my pictures have gotten significantly better.

Regards,
Karl

Jeremiah said:

Okey these questions are probably really dumb but here we go.

After getting a post starting on the 550ex I have come to the
conclusion that it is not very reliable. But it is all I have and I
don't really want to drop any more money than I have already.

If I want to shoot someone standing say 10 feet away, minimal
surronding light. If I set the camera to 1/250 and F 4.0, will the
flash on its own compensate for the manual setting (will it
underexpose?) OR should I use a manual setting on the flash (
hoping to get more consistancy of flash). If manual flash any
suggestions on settings 1/16 or what.... should I be using H-Sync
because I am shooting 1/250. Or do I need to buy a light meter and
figure it from there. Any Help would be appreciated.

Lens i am using is 50 1.4 if that makes any differance sometimes
70-200 2.8.

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to say that ettl doesn't have it's issues, I'm just noticing that on the link you have two comparisons in which I think at least one is flawed and the other is a toss up as to which one exposed better.

In the living room example you are shooting from two different positions such that with the sunpak the furniture is all the same distance away and you don't have the awful flash reflection off of the picture of the lion. The reflection ends right at the edge of where the sunpak picture starts. That reflection may have made the entire image too dark if used with the sunpak. At the angle you were at with the sigma the chair on the right is significantly closer than it is in the image with the sunpak and thus over exposed.

In the second set of images (vases, flowers, curtains...), in general I like the exposure better with the sunpak but many of the highlights are blown out, especially on the table top and the sculpture in the middle. If I needed better than a snapshot I'd feel better working with the image created by the sigma than the sunpak.

I've never had a thyristor type flash so I don't have much to compare with other than what I seen on the net but I will agree that for many types of situations it seems to (and should based on what I know of it) work very well. By the same token I can come up with other examples that I have successfully used ettl with but think that an auto flash would fail on. I've successfully taken flash candid shots of people over a hundred feet away with long telephoto. Auto flash would have exposed for any of a dozen things closer too me. It basically comes down to knowing how your equipment is going to react to a situation and adjusting accordingly. I'm rather inexperienced at photography but I can generally get exactly what I'm looking for out of my flash and the times I fail I can look at the picture and the exif data and figure out what I did wrong hopefully learning my lesson for next time.

jim

Peter Gregg said:

Jeremiah,

I personally do not like the 550EX because it is not consistant and
I do not have the time to make it consistant.

I know a lot of guys have it, so rather than condem it, those that
want to make it work need to have ideas to try. I am getting a
550EX to try over this weekend. I want to try some of the
suggestions I heard plus do some more testing.

If you are not in a high pressure situation, or are not in a
situation that firing the flash will ruin your candid shots, the
first thing to do is FEL. FEL on the face of the focal person and
then shoot the picture.

The second thing to try (I tried it and got better results but
still had random off exposure shots) is setting the shutter to 200

Here are some shots I consider easy shots but still came out bad. A
few of are actual shots, a few of them are just test shots around
the house. Maybe they will be helpful to you. All are the original
untouched shots except 1, for which I don't have the original
anymore.

http://www.pbase.com/pgp777/flashtest

Pete

Click to expand...

Hi Karl, thanks again for your help with the flash problems. I recently acquired a 420EX for the D30. I have a steep learning curve, as I'm having to learn a lot of the photography basics as well.

One question relating to the flash. When the ETTL (or camera I guess) calculates how much the flash will fire, does it take into account what ISO speed the camera is set to? I've tried doing some tests, and at higher ISO's the flash seems to blow out the foreground pretty often. I usually have the exposure and flash compensation set to 1/2+ (half stop over norm). I have the Lumiquest 80-20, but feel awkward using it outside of "family" shots. I guess I just have to get used to it. Seems to go a good job though.

Could you explain your use of flash compensation and exposure compensation? (in what circumstances you recommend making changes to them) as that would be really helpful

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Andre.

Karlg said:

I know I got a lot better with my 550EX after I learned a little
about the priciples of a flash stobe. Using flash with an SLR is a
little like using a low F-number lens, it can be very useful but
you need to know what you are doing or you may get lousy results.

Click to expand...

Denigrate? Are things becoming so politically correct that one cannot simply question anymore?

I'll rephrase my question in a more succinct and sensitive way:

Given that both TTL and thyristor flash technology require the user to learn how to operate them properly, what will TTL technology offer that cannot already be achieved more cheaply with conventional and non-proprietary technology?

M

Mike Kelley said:

I had one last thought before I'm out of here (and may not be back
until Monday, although I'll see if I can get on by Friday -- Happy
Thanksgiving, everyone!).

No camera can be idiot proof when it comes to exposure, so I don't
know why it bothers you, Michael, who is a pro who knows this. You
know you can't send your wife out to photograph snow and have it
come out automatically correct without exposure adjustment. You
know you can't give your wife the D30 and tell her to make a
nighttime shot that looks like it was actually shot at night,
without adjusting the D30. You know this and many other things yet
you expect a flash unit to make a perfect exposure everytime.

ETTL only does the same sorts of things any automatic system does
-- it averages out for 18% gray levels. This isn't always correct
(and may not be correct even the majority of times, depending upon
what you're photographing). Let's fact it, folks, you have to
remember to use your brain here -- no amount of automation can free
you from that (otherwise we'd just send our cameras on vacation and
enjoy the results when they came back).

If your Sunpak works better for you then it probably is more
adjusted to what you're shooting -- those are sometimes the way
things go, that choices are made in the manufactuer, just like the
D30 was purposefully set not to oversharpen things. I think more
power to you if you've found something that works. But don't
denigrate the thousands (millions?) of others who have found
Canon's ETTL to be just fine. It works for us, and can work for
others (and it may well be your Sunpak solution would not work
for me due to the way I shoot).

Remember, the best computer we all have is sitting on our
shoulders. No equipment can take the place of it.

Click to expand...

I appreciate all that has been said in this forum but could someone please go over what I have said and give me some ideas on my situation. It is obvious that the flash system isn't perfect I don't think anyone can deny that... that isn't my issue. I just want some help working around it some.

Jeremiah said:

Okey these questions are probably really dumb but here we go.

After getting a post starting on the 550ex I have come to the
conclusion that it is not very reliable. But it is all I have and I
don't really want to drop any more money than I have already.

If I want to shoot someone standing say 10 feet away, minimal
surronding light. If I set the camera to 1/250 and F 4.0, will the
flash on its own compensate for the manual setting (will it
underexpose?) OR should I use a manual setting on the flash (
hoping to get more consistancy of flash). If manual flash any
suggestions on settings 1/16 or what.... should I be using H-Sync
because I am shooting 1/250. Or do I need to buy a light meter and
figure it from there. Any Help would be appreciated.

Lens i am using is 50 1.4 if that makes any differance sometimes
70-200 2.8.

Click to expand...

I tried to do this in my previous post (pointed to below)

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&page=1&message=1791098

I don't know (maybe you have a good reason) why you are shooting at 1/250th and stopped down some. If you don't need a high shutter rate due to movement, you would get a better picture at a lower shutter rate. A wider aperture will help as well. You might want to go to a higher ISO. You should bounce or diffuse the flash for something 10 feet away (even pull the wide angle diffuser down not matter what you lens focal length.

The TTL flash works independently from the "ambient" exposure (shutter speed, ISO, and aperture).

For manual you either need a light meter or you can get their buy looking at the histogram after a test shot. This is kind of tough if you are catching the subject that is moving.

Karl

Jeremiah said:

Jeremiah said:

Okey these questions are probably really dumb but here we go.

After getting a post starting on the 550ex I have come to the
conclusion that it is not very reliable. But it is all I have and I
don't really want to drop any more money than I have already.

If I want to shoot someone standing say 10 feet away, minimal
surronding light. If I set the camera to 1/250 and F 4.0, will the
flash on its own compensate for the manual setting (will it
underexpose?) OR should I use a manual setting on the flash (
hoping to get more consistancy of flash). If manual flash any
suggestions on settings 1/16 or what.... should I be using H-Sync
because I am shooting 1/250. Or do I need to buy a light meter and
figure it from there. Any Help would be appreciated.

Lens i am using is 50 1.4 if that makes any differance sometimes
70-200 2.8.

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The reason your foreground is blown out in higher ISO is that the min. flash distance increases with ISO number. Any objects that is closer than the min. flash distance will receive more light than the proper exposure needs.

I usually use flash compensation on -1/2 or -1 so that the fill flash is hardly noticeably. This is in normal outdoor shooting.

For indoor fill flash, I set flash compensation to 0 and use an Omnibounce to soften the shadow. If the room doesn't have a lot of light in general then I swith to M mode on camera and set f5.6, 1/90 or f8, 1/60 to use the flash as main light.

As Karl has explained, the flash exposure is separated from the normal exposure. So for a given flash exposure, your can brighten or darken the background by using the exposure compensation. Similarly, for a given background exposure, you can adjust the brightness of the flash by using the flash compensation.

So, you can have flash compensation on +1, exposure compensation on -1 to get a brightly lit subject against a dark background. or vice versa...

Hope this helps.

Alex

Andre Thivierge said:

One question relating to the flash. When the ETTL (or camera I
guess) calculates how much the flash will fire, does it take into
account what ISO speed the camera is set to? I've tried doing some
tests, and at higher ISO's the flash seems to blow out the
foreground pretty often. I usually have the exposure and flash
compensation set to 1/2+ (half stop over norm). I have the
Lumiquest 80-20, but feel awkward using it outside of "family"
shots. I guess I just have to get used to it. Seems to go a good
job though.

Could you explain your use of flash compensation and exposure
compensation? (in what circumstances you recommend making changes
to them) as that would be really helpful

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Andre.

Karlg said:

I know I got a lot better with my 550EX after I learned a little
about the priciples of a flash stobe. Using flash with an SLR is a
little like using a low F-number lens, it can be very useful but
you need to know what you are doing or you may get lousy results.

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If you like to focus, recompose then shoot, E-TTL flashes will not work well unless you use flash exposure lock. You'll probably get more consistently good results if you do the following:

• Set the camera to use the centre focus point only.

• Put the focus point over the subject.

• Press the FEL ( ) button.

• Focus, compose and take the shot.

If you don't use FEL, then the flash will expose for whatever is under the selected focus point when you release the shutter, If this isn't your subject then you will likely be disappointed with the results.

Also, for shots where the flash is the primary method of illumination, set the camera to full manual mode with a shutter speed of between 1/60 and 1/200. Dial in the aperture you want and take the picture. If the flash is struggling, try 200 or even 400 ISO.

If you can, bounce the flash too.

Karl thank you for trying to answer my exact question..but my problem is that I tried 1/60 and 1.4 or 2.8 and no luck.... the problem is very wierd... when I was shooting in near total darkness I got great shots subject was 6 feet away (with 1/60)... but when I had a good bit of light the images looked very underexposed subject was 10-11 feet away (same setting). Because I am shooting premieres, often if my shutter speed is at 1/60 I catch the flash of another photogrpaher and it blows out the pic. So I was thinking if I sped up the shutter speed that would help to eliminate that and if I could manually set the flash that might take away some of the inconsistancies of that damn piece of equipement. My knowledge of manual setup is zero so I am looking for some help on that I guess. But if manual flash isn't the answer I would love to know what is.

The odd part is what drives me crazy less light ambient light= better pictures... I don't get it.

Karlg said:

I tried to do this in my previous post (pointed to below)

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&page=1&message=1791098

I don't know (maybe you have a good reason) why you are shooting at
1/250th and stopped down some. If you don't need a high shutter
rate due to movement, you would get a better picture at a lower
shutter rate. A wider aperture will help as well. You might want
to go to a higher ISO. You should bounce or diffuse the flash for
something 10 feet away (even pull the wide angle diffuser down not
matter what you lens focal length.

The TTL flash works independently from the "ambient" exposure
(shutter speed, ISO, and aperture).

For manual you either need a light meter or you can get their buy
looking at the histogram after a test shot. This is kind of tough
if you are catching the subject that is moving.

Karl

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