No mirror lockup on D50 - major issue or not?

Wayne N. · Mar 29, 2006

Hi all,

The search engine is down, so forgive me if this has been discussed to death already.

Anyway, I'm pretty much sold on the D50. I was initially interested in the Oly E500 mainly because of it's dustbuster and mirror lockup, but then after some research I found out how great the D50 is, and I determined that I could live without the dustbuster and without the mirror lockup.

But someone I was recently conversing with who has the Tamron 70-300 lens mentioned this:

Member said:
You left a message asking about the 70-300. I like it a lot. Hard to beat for the cost (I paid about $150 at either B&H or Adorama).

Member said:
Having said that, it requires care on my D70. The problem is the D70's lack of mirror lock up. There are certain camera shutter speed and lens focal length combinations that I consider unuseable from the standpoint of sharpness because of mirror slap vibration. In general I avoid speeds in the range of about 1/100-1/8 at longer focal lengths (> 180). I would suggest that you do some simple tests with the camera on a tripod to determine for yourself which combinations you might want to avoid. It will also depend on what you're shooting - different effects for longer distance shots than, say, a macro at the minimum focus distance of about 3 feet. Remembering to check for this before shooting, and then compensating if needed (and possible), can be a pain

What he's saying sounds like a bit of a bummer. But maybe (hopefully) it's not really a big deal?

If anyone has any other opinions or experiences about this, I'm all ears.

Fyi, I am going to be using the Nikon 18-70 lens for sure, and I am currently interested in the Nikon 28-200G or 55-200DX or the Tamron 70-300 lenses (currently in the process of trying to decide between them here http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=17811688 ). I suppose that the lack of mirror lockup affects different lenses and focal lengths to various degrees. Someday I'll be getting VR lenses which I am guessing would resolve this issue, but that's gonna be down the road.

Thanks in advance!

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

packy · Mar 29, 2006

You'll have the same on VR lenes on a tripod as you have to turn it off. I personally think the post is a bit OTT as if you have a decent enough ss it shouldn't be a problem. Never heard too many people complaining on the forums about this. Another thing and I could be wrong as I have the D50, but I thought that the D70 has mirror lock up.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

Gromsky · Mar 29, 2006

packy said:
You'll have the same on VR lenes on a tripod as you have to turn it
off. I personally think the post is a bit OTT as if you have a
decent enough ss it shouldn't be a problem. Never heard too many
people complaining on the forums about this. Another thing and I
could be wrong as I have the D50, but I thought that the D70 has
mirror lock up.

D70 does NOT have mirror lock up either, I use 200mm, 400mm and 500mm lenses on my D70 all the time, it is NOT an issue, it IS one of those things that makes it into a list of camera features but most will never need it.

Same goes for the dustbuster whatever, dust on the sensor is a non event, just blow it off every now and then, a non event.

packy said:
*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

--
Gromsky

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

packy said:
You'll have the same on VR lenes on a tripod as you have to turn it
off. I personally think the post is a bit OTT as if you have a
decent enough ss it shouldn't be a problem.

OTT=over the top. SS=shutter speed. Got it lol!

packy said:
Never heard too many
people complaining on the forums about this.

Yeah, as I've been doing more research, I am getting the impression that it's generally not really an issue.

packy said:
Another thing and I
could be wrong as I have the D50, but I thought that the D70 has
mirror lock up.

They are the same in this regard.

Thanks for taking the time to comment Packy!

Cheers,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

Gromsky said:
D70 does NOT have mirror lock up either, I use 200mm, 400mm and
500mm lenses on my D70 all the time, it is NOT an issue, it IS one
of those things that makes it into a list of camera features but
most will never need it.

Now that's what I wanted to hear! I have since found, such as from here http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?p=597439&highlight=mirror+lockup , that that mirror lockup might be a factor in some cases, but I don't think that I would run into it too often. I'm not going to worry about it!

Gromsky said:
Same goes for the dustbuster whatever, dust on the sensor is a non
event, just blow it off every now and then, a non event.

I don't mind hearing that reassurance either Wally! Thanks.

p.s. awesome gallery and awesome images! I'll be initially using an Nikon 18-70, and am initially looking for an economical lens with more length, such as the Nikon 28-200G, Nikon 55-200DX or the Tamron 70-300. I notice that you have a bunch of very nice lenses, but if you have any impressions of which economical lens might supply me with adequate image quality, that would be great.

Thanks again,

Wayne

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Thomas Comerford · Mar 30, 2006

You will see mentions of mirror lock-up in the documentation for both cameras, because there is a mirror lock-up entry in the menus of both cameras which you use for cleaning your sensor. It has caused plenty of confusion in the past.

Here's an example of how mirror slap looks at low shutter speeds, in case you're interested. The 3rd shot in this link is 200mm at 1/40. Notice how the horizontal lines aren't as sharp as the vertical lines.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=17732214

I've taken exposures of 1/3 of a sec. with a wide angle on a really cheap tripod without any loss of sharpness, although with longer focal lengths I would need a higher shutter speed.

Wayne N. said:
Wayne N. said:

D70 does NOT have mirror lock up either, I use 200mm, 400mm and
500mm lenses on my D70 all the time, it is NOT an issue, it IS one
of those things that makes it into a list of camera features but
most will never need it.

Click to expand...

Now that's what I wanted to hear! I have since found, such as from
here

http://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showthread.php?p=597439&highlight=mirror+lockup , that that mirror lockup might be a factor in some cases, but I don't think that I would run into it too often. I'm not going to worry about it!

Wayne N. said:

Same goes for the dustbuster whatever, dust on the sensor is a non
event, just blow it off every now and then, a non event.

Click to expand...

I don't mind hearing that reassurance either Wally! Thanks.

p.s. awesome gallery and awesome images! I'll be initially using
an Nikon 18-70, and am initially looking for an economical lens
with more length, such as the Nikon 28-200G, Nikon 55-200DX or the
Tamron 70-300. I notice that you have a bunch of very nice lenses,
but if you have any impressions of which economical lens might
supply me with adequate image quality, that would be great.

Thanks again,

Wayne

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Logge · Mar 30, 2006

Wayne N. said:
p.s. awesome gallery and awesome images! I'll be initially using
an Nikon 18-70, and am initially looking for an economical lens
with more length, such as the Nikon 28-200G, Nikon 55-200DX or the
Tamron 70-300. I notice that you have a bunch of very nice lenses,
but if you have any impressions of which economical lens might
supply me with adequate image quality, that would be great.

hi

optically the 55-200DX is the best of these. it's the sharpest wide open.

Buildwise the 28-200 looks best and is more solid than the 55-200, but the 55-200DX is extremly light. i like it alot for skiing.

the tamron has longer reach, but afaik all those 70-300 lenses get soft above 200mm so i wouldn't go for that one.

Some say AF speed is extremly slow on all these lenses and i agree it is is clearly slower than the 18-70, but i didn't have one picture out of focus with my 55-200DX, when i was skiing last week so i think it's not a big issue

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

Thomas Comerford said:
You will see mentions of mirror lock-up in the documentation for
both cameras, because there is a mirror lock-up entry in the menus
of both cameras which you use for cleaning your sensor. It has
caused plenty of confusion in the past.

Yup, got that one thanks!

Thomas Comerford said:
Here's an example of how mirror slap looks at low shutter speeds,
in case you're interested. The 3rd shot in this link is 200mm at
1/40. Notice how the horizontal lines aren't as sharp as the
vertical lines.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=17732214

Very interested Thomas - thanks! Not only for your "mirror slap" comment below, but also because that's a lens I'm interested in (for later on). But here's your comment..

Thomas Comerford said:
D70 + 200mm + 1/40 = soft images due to mirror slap. If you look carefully you'll notce that vertical lines are a little bit better than horizontal lines, which to me indicates movment along the vertical axis. Try the test again, but use flash so that you don't have to use slow shutter speeds.

Very interesting!

Thomas Comerford said:
I've taken exposures of 1/3 of a sec. with a wide angle on a really
cheap tripod without any loss of sharpness, although with longer
focal lengths I would need a higher shutter speed.

Also great to know about the wide angle. I suppose at longer focal lengths, you just have to do some testing with whatever lens you're using to determine which shutter speeds should be avoided if possible. There are probably some "rules of thumb" about this... ah yes there they are - right in that thread you supplied. Great!

I found out also that to use mirror lockup, you have to pre-frame the shot on a tripod, then lock up the mirror, and then use the remote to trigger the shutter. I don't think I'll be shooting on a tripod the majority of the time anyways (I know I should!), so the advantages of mirror lockup are further reduced for me.

Thanks a lot Thomas!

Cheers,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

Logge said:
optically the 55-200DX is the best of these. it's the sharpest wide
open.
Buildwise the 28-200 looks best and is more solid than the 55-200,
but the 55-200DX is extremly light. i like it alot for skiing.
the tamron has longer reach, but afaik all those 70-300 lenses get
soft above 200mm so i wouldn't go for that one.

You've confirmed what I've been hearing! Thanks.

Logge said:
Some say AF speed is extremly slow on all these lenses and i agree
it is is clearly slower than the 18-70, but i didn't have one
picture out of focus with my 55-200DX, when i was skiing last week
so i think it's not a big issue

That's also great to know.

Thanks Logge!

Cheers,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

Logge said:
when i was skiing last week so i think it's not a big issue

... just curious: how do you carry your camera when skiing? I'm assuming you have it in a backpack. But if not, I'm interested in knowing.

Thanks,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

redwoodroadie · Mar 30, 2006

Nikon's engineers are very smart and know about practical photography. A 6 megapixel sensor just isn't going to resolve enough for mirror lock up to be an issue if the camera is already on a sturdy tripod under most circumstances. Given the limited shutter speeds it does occur at (magnified by longer focal lengths), it's an easy work around -- you simply change the ISO and/or aperture to get the camera out of troublesome range. The diffraction limits of the larger pixel sites of the D50 and D70 allow for stopping down to as much as f/14 which gives you 3 stops to work with in addition to the two stops of ISO since there's not a lot of difference between ISO 200 and ISO 400 (and the D50 could go comfortably to ISO 800, that's another 3 stops to work with).

Of course, for large prints using more resolution that you would be getting with a D200 or D2X, then mirror lock-up is a must and should be used all the time below 2x (or even more) of the focal length. Here again, Nikon rules. The mirror lock-up can be dialed up as the shooting mode on the D200, but is buried in the menu on the 5D.
--

http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/myfavorites

Logge · Mar 30, 2006

yes i'm using a lowepro computrekker AW, which was very comfortable for skiing. it was the fist time i was skiing with it and was very happy with it.
i had my D70 with 55-200DX and a friend's D50 with sigma 18-200 in it.

Bill E(UK) · Mar 30, 2006

Don't worry about it unless you want to take astronomy shots or distant building scenes at night. Most things you will ever want to do with the D70 or D50 are achievable but do sometimes need a change of ISO or shutter speed.

It all comes down to build cost. The D50 and D70 have an electro mechanical shutter mechanism that is linked to the mirror mechanism. It is not possible to lock the mirror up without the shutter being open at the same time (i.e. for cleaning).

The more expensive cameras with mirror lock up and seperate shutter activation require a much more complex shutter / mirror operating mechanism and this adds to the production costs.

The D2X has this function (I think the D200 may have this).

So, if you want to shoot the rings around uranus or the cran nebula (joking a little), you need a more expensive camera. for almost all other photography, the D50 and D70 are extremely fine cameras.

Go on, buy one!
--
Bill Ellingford
Forest of Dean, UK

oldcdog · Mar 30, 2006

I'm new to this as I just bought a D50 but the manual seems to think that it has a mirror lock up

Logge · Mar 30, 2006

this mirror lock up function discribed in the manual is just for cleaning the sensor. with this you can open the mirror to blow dust out of the camera

oldcdog · Mar 30, 2006

yeah thanks, as I said I'm new to this however if I'd read a bit more it would have dawned on me

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

Logge said:
yes i'm using a lowepro computrekker AW, which was very comfortable
for skiing. it was the fist time i was skiing with it and was very
happy with it.
i had my D70 with 55-200DX and a friend's D50 with sigma 18-200 in it.

--
Cheers,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

redwoodroadie said:
Nikon's engineers are very smart and know about practical
photography. A 6 megapixel sensor just isn't going to resolve
enough for mirror lock up to be an issue if the camera is already
on a sturdy tripod under most circumstances. Given the limited
shutter speeds it does occur at (magnified by longer focal
lengths), it's an easy work around -- you simply change the ISO
and/or aperture to get the camera out of troublesome range. The
diffraction limits of the larger pixel sites of the D50 and D70
allow for stopping down to as much as f/14 which gives you 3 stops
to work with in addition to the two stops of ISO since there's not
a lot of difference between ISO 200 and ISO 400 (and the D50 could
go comfortably to ISO 800, that's another 3 stops to work with).

Tony, I see your point, and thanks for the explanation!

redwoodroadie said:
Of course, for large prints using more resolution that you would be
getting with a D200 or D2X, then mirror lock-up is a must and
should be used all the time below 2x (or even more) of the focal
length. Here again, Nikon rules. The mirror lock-up can be dialed
up as the shooting mode on the D200, but is buried in the menu on
the 5D.

Very cool - but I don't know if I need to hear that, as I'd like to hold back my D200/D2X lust for just a while, ok! ;-)

redwoodroadie said:
http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/myfavorites

Gorgeous images Tony! Joy (the ape) is just one of your awesome captures.

Thanks again,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

Wayne N. · Mar 30, 2006

Bill E(UK) said:
Don't worry about it unless you want to take astronomy shots or
distant building scenes at night. Most things you will ever want
to do with the D70 or D50 are achievable but do sometimes need a
change of ISO or shutter speed.

What you're saying is... don't worry about it!

Bill E(UK) said:
It all comes down to build cost. The D50 and D70 have an electro
mechanical shutter mechanism that is linked to the mirror
mechanism. It is not possible to lock the mirror up without the
shutter being open at the same time (i.e. for cleaning).

The more expensive cameras with mirror lock up and seperate shutter
activation require a much more complex shutter / mirror operating
mechanism and this adds to the production costs.

Makes complete sense. Still, I can't believe how much camera you get with the D50 for the price it's going for these days! Definately enough for me for the forseeable future.

Bill E(UK) said:
So, if you want to shoot the rings around uranus or the cran nebula
(joking a little), you need a more expensive camera.

Rings around uranus. Hnn hn hnnnn! (that's my Beavis and Butthead impression lol)

Bill E(UK) said:
for almost
all other photography, the D50 and D70 are extremely fine cameras.

Go on, buy one!

I'm gonna!

Thanks a lot Bill!

Cheers,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

No mirror lockup on D50 - major issue or not?

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Leading Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Veteran Member

Senior Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Veteran Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Member

Senior Member

Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Keyboard shortcuts