30D and White balance issue

fasttempo123

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First time post here...so hello everyone,

A little background of the camera:

Got my first DSLR, 30D, a couple of weeks ago. The first 30D had some focus problem that is noticeable on LCD when compared with other 30D in the shop. Got the replacement and the focus worked much better. However the second camera died on me after 3 days of use. It turned out it is the 1 gb microdrive that I used killed it as it killed another 30D in the shop when I took the second camera there. Funnily though the "problemetic" microdrive is still working perfectly with my PC and in my PDA. Anyway, I got another replace back and everything all seem to work smoothly since.

A bit about myself:

Coming from EOS 3 film world, I had been shooting on and off for over 6 years with the camera. I enjoyed the results as well as the camera. Like most of you I finally decided to move to digital recently. I bought a Fuji F11 a few month ago and decided it is not what I want for serious shooting. So it came the above story...

Sorry for been so lenthy but I guess I better do a little bit troduction for my first post here.

Now it comes the main part, the white balance problem. Coming from film background, white balance is something new to me. I am having difficulty getting the white balance right so that my shot comes out with a white backgroud if the background is white. Under what I believe is a controlled enviornment, details to follow, the AWB is just so simply shifting from shots to shots from white to grey to dark grey. I just never seem to have any control of what to come next. Basically all my white background becomes grey or dark grey. All the shots look dirty as there seem to have a layer of grey color on each shot. Here is what I did and the set up:

I have been shooting Jewelries and little gift products since my first 30D. I have a softlight tent with three 6500K lights at sides and top. Inside of the tent everything is white except the little product. There is only a little hole left for lens to get into the tent. The lens is Sigma 150mm Macro. The camera is connected to my laptop via USB link and Canon EOS utility for remote shooting. This allows me to review my shots immediately at my 15" laptop screem for focus, color, exposure etc. a remote controller and mirror lockup is also used for the shooting. Focus is do manually and I shoot raw only. So far I have tried all Exposure meterings, Av and M mode, AWB, custom with white paper inside of the tent, or at K values from 5000-7000. Also tried K values with color preferences. So far nothing worked. In the PP side I tried to get rid of the grey cast in Canon PPD and PSCS2 with hacked Camera RAW 3.3. All without sucess. I am sure on the white balance part it must be me not the camera so please don't take this as equiptment faulty report.

There are a few shots that come close with AWB. But I don't know how to get its K value so that I can set the WB at that value for the rest of the shoots to see how they go. Any idea what software will show AWB at K value or something that I can use to set custom WB?

Thanks in advance and have a good day.

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
IMy fiest 30D was also faulty..this is ok..the white balance in all Caonon isnt that reliable..read reviews on the this web re 10d, 20d and you will get your answers.
--
shoot to thrill

kind regards

tonydee
 
Just a suggestion, but it may not be a white balance issue. Your camera will try to meter everything as a grey (18% grey). With a lot of white tent in your shot, the camera may be underexposing the shot to your eye and turning the tent grey. You might try some exposure compensation and see if "over" exposing gives you better results.

Plus, if you are shooting RAW, you might try the exposure slider in whatever converter you are using.
Hope it helps, maybe you've already tried that.
 
Mine had focus problem as well as contrats/wb problems.
I went to canon and gave them sample pictures and tried it with the tech.
I was told go back and return it for an other one. Now its awsom!

It was easier to exchange at henry's becuase i did not bring the box withme to canon.
--



CANON 30D 10-22 EF-S/50MM F1.4/85MM F1.8/200M F2.8L/Flash 580EX
Former Nikon D70 User.
http://www.pbase.com/canon___10d
http://www.pbase.com/canon__10d
 
Thank you all for your kind reply.

I have tried all sorts of compensation and combination but the results are all somewhat the same. As I understand it, if you get the color darker than white in the first place then it is difficult to make it white later as color mixes from light to dark not the other way around. Or maybe it is totally different with digital? So far I have tried two 30D with the same setup resulting in same problem. I was thinking the problem is due to the man behind the camera, actually I still believe so, but after seeing the reply I think I will get the Canon people to check the camera out just in case.

Anyone konw how to find out the K value of AWB?? or better together with the color preferrence with the AWB if any?

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
Hi, fasttempo123-san
I live in Japan and I have just same experience with you.
I have purchased 30 yesterday. Its surprise!

I replaced first 30D body with another body because of its AF problem and after shopping I destroyed lexar CF of 1GB at my home.
But after that my 30D is doing nice jobs for at least 24 hrs till now :)

Regarding AWB issue I recommend you to do as following and they are my ways.
1) Choose raw mode
2) Develope SylkeyPix as raw develpoer
http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/
http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/man/
3) SP is now applicable 30D's raw and
  • has specific awb mode, probably satisfactable
  • easily and appropriately control color temperature
  • has very kind of color controling options
ANyway let us enjoy superb function of 30D. We have already choosed 30D...
Regards
--
*
Your comments and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks for looking.
*



HAMADA from Kumamoto Japan
http://homepage3.nifty.com/railroad/
 
Ive been shooting with a 10D for 3 years and a D30 before that Since you are shooting inside a white tent I would just shoot a pic of the inside tent wall and use that for your cuustom white balance shot instead of a white card.If I'm shooting before a white wall I will use that instead of a white card regardless of the light temp.....you never know there could be a slight difference in whites from the paper and actual backgrounds.If that doesnt work maybe it is the camera and not you.Thats my 2 cents hope it helps
 
Hi, fasttempo123-san
I live in Japan and I have just same experience with you.
I have purchased 30 yesterday. Its surprise!
I replaced first 30D body with another body because of its AF
problem and after shopping I destroyed lexar CF of 1GB at my home.
But after that my 30D is doing nice jobs for at least 24 hrs till
now :)

Regarding AWB issue I recommend you to do as following and they are
my ways.
1) Choose raw mode
2) Develope SylkeyPix as raw develpoer
http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/
http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/man/
3) SP is now applicable 30D's raw and
  • has specific awb mode, probably satisfactable
  • easily and appropriately control color temperature
  • has very kind of color controling options
ANyway let us enjoy superb function of 30D. We have already
choosed 30D...
Regards
--
*
Your comments and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks for looking.
*



HAMADA from Kumamoto Japan
http://homepage3.nifty.com/railroad/
Hello Hamada san,

Thank you for your reply and I will give SylkeyPix a try later.

Since you are usig SylkeyPix already, can you do me a favor and try the following for me please?

get a piece of white paper with some black characters on it so that the majority of the scene is white with no more than 20% black characters. Now take pictures in whatever way you can to get the color right. If you can get white color (not light grey) right without washing out the black then please let us know your settings.

So far I have tried everything I can think of with the above test and I can't even get close to white color. All my shoots are somewhat having a dirty look.

Good luck and await for your reply.

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
Ive been shooting with a 10D for 3 years and a D30 before that
Since you are shooting inside a white tent I would just shoot a pic
of the inside tent wall and use that for your cuustom white balance
shot instead of a white card.If I'm shooting before a white wall I
will use that instead of a white card regardless of the light
temp.....you never know there could be a slight difference in
whites from the paper and actual backgrounds.If that doesnt work
maybe it is the camera and not you.Thats my 2 cents hope it helps
I might not have put it clearly in my previous message but my "white card" is whatever inside of the tent minues the little product which was removed when taken for custom WB. The "white card" shot is dark grey when at the right exposure. With + compensation the shot goes to light grey. Then this is going to ruin your consequential shoots anyway as everything is bound to be over exposed. I have tried to shoot a big white envelop with black address on it near the window with daylight, outside of the soft tent with flash, with 6500k light at different angles. I also shot some outdoor white object etc. So far everything goes from light grey to dark grey for white object/color depending on the other colors and their %in the mix.

For those 30D owners we'd like to hear that they can get the white color right by shooting a white envolop with black address under whatever condition. Is this a common 30D problem I wonder?
--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
you are right with the white balance ,

I am finding skin tones are on the brown side..my white balance isnt like my old 20D..

I think some or the first 30D,s arent quite right..mine is going back again..nxt week
--
shoot to thrill

kind regards

tonydee
 
please view and refer its exif
Now I have no time to explain. After shooting today train, I add
more.
regards



--



HAMADA from Kumamoto Japan
http://homepage3.nifty.com/railroad/
Thank you Hamdada san for the quick response. I am not sure it is my eyes or my LCD but your white background looks blue oriented grey or something like that to me. I viewed your photo in 4 different software with the same result.

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
Hi
white background looks blue oriented grey or something like that
Yes it is. Your impression is correct.
This image was captured under shadow area on sunny day.

Generally also in the case of film white paper is expressed as blue oriented grey under shadow area on sunny day.

This image was captured, developed and processed at default condition of 30D, Silkey Pix and Photoshop. No special adjustment were not applied. So I think 30D shows NORMAL and natural response.

But there is one deviation which I have done. It is to set over exposure at +EV1.7. The reason why is that such over exposure is SOP (standard operating protocol) to get white as white paper under shadow area on sunny day
If you want to get genuine white what you image, I recommend you to

1) do fine tuning white balance with pin pointed WB tool and fine tuner for WB.on Silkey Pix
2) adjust level histogram on Photoshop
If you want, I would like to add more comment and image after processing.
Regards
--



HAMADA from Kumamoto Japan
http://homepage3.nifty.com/railroad/
 
Here are my two samples



Shooting proerty:
File Name IMG_0012.CR2
Camera Model Canon EOS 30D
Shooting Date/Time 3/24/2006 8:16:16 PM
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/125
Av( Aperture Value ) 6.3
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation +2/3
ISO Speed 400
Lens 150.0 mm
Focal Length 150.0 mm
Image Size 3504x2336
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
White Balance Mode Auto
AF Mode One-Shot AF
Picture Style Neutral
Sharpness 0
Contrast 0
Saturation 0
Color tone 0
Color Space sRGB
Noise Reduction Off
File Size 7751 KB
Custom Function
C.Fn:01-0
C.Fn:02-0
C.Fn:03-0
C.Fn:04-0
C.Fn:05-0
C.Fn:06-0
C.Fn:07-0
C.Fn:08-1
C.Fn:09-0
C.Fn:10-0
C.Fn:11-0
C.Fn:12-1
C.Fn:13-0
C.Fn:14-0
C.Fn:15-0
C.Fn:16-0
C.Fn:17-0
C.Fn:18-0
C.Fn:19-0
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting




Shooting property:
File Name IMG_0319.CR2
Camera Model Canon EOS 30D
Shooting Date/Time 3/26/2006 3:37:24 PM
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/15
Av( Aperture Value ) 13.0
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation +2/3
ISO Speed 100
Lens 150.0 mm
Focal Length 150.0 mm
Image Size 3504x2336
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
White Balance Mode Custom
AF Mode One-Shot AF
Picture Style Neutral
Sharpness 0
Contrast 0
Saturation 0
Color tone 0
Color Space sRGB
Noise Reduction Off
File Size 6931 KB
Custom Function
C.Fn:01-0
C.Fn:02-0
C.Fn:03-0
C.Fn:04-0
C.Fn:05-0
C.Fn:06-0
C.Fn:07-0
C.Fn:08-1
C.Fn:09-0
C.Fn:10-0
C.Fn:11-0
C.Fn:12-0
C.Fn:13-0
C.Fn:14-0
C.Fn:15-0
C.Fn:16-0
C.Fn:17-0
C.Fn:18-0
C.Fn:19-0
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting


PM me if you need the raw files as the host doesn't allow raw files. I hope someone can tell me it can be recovered from raw files or else.

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
image links take 2, hope it works
Here are my two samples
IMG_0012.jpg
'] http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/fasttempo123/IMG_0012.jpg[/IMG] [/URL]
Shooting proerty:
File Name IMG_0012.CR2
Camera Model Canon EOS 30D
Shooting Date/Time 3/24/2006 8:16:16 PM
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/125
Av( Aperture Value ) 6.3
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation +2/3
ISO Speed 400
Lens 150.0 mm
Focal Length 150.0 mm
Image Size 3504x2336
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
White Balance Mode Auto
AF Mode One-Shot AF
Picture Style Neutral
Sharpness 0
Contrast 0
Saturation 0
Color tone 0
Color Space sRGB
Noise Reduction Off
File Size 7751 KB
Custom Function
C.Fn:01-0
C.Fn:02-0
C.Fn:03-0
C.Fn:04-0
C.Fn:05-0
C.Fn:06-0
C.Fn:07-0
C.Fn:08-1
C.Fn:09-0
C.Fn:10-0
C.Fn:11-0
C.Fn:12-1
C.Fn:13-0
C.Fn:14-0
C.Fn:15-0
C.Fn:16-0
C.Fn:17-0
C.Fn:18-0
C.Fn:19-0
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting
IMG_0319.jpg
'] http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/fasttempo123/IMG_0319.jpg[/IMG] [/URL]
Shooting property:
File Name IMG_0319.CR2
Camera Model Canon EOS 30D
Shooting Date/Time 3/26/2006 3:37:24 PM
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/15
Av( Aperture Value ) 13.0
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation +2/3
ISO Speed 100
Lens 150.0 mm
Focal Length 150.0 mm
Image Size 3504x2336
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
White Balance Mode Custom
AF Mode One-Shot AF
Picture Style Neutral
Sharpness 0
Contrast 0
Saturation 0
Color tone 0
Color Space sRGB
Noise Reduction Off
File Size 6931 KB
Custom Function
C.Fn:01-0
C.Fn:02-0
C.Fn:03-0
C.Fn:04-0
C.Fn:05-0
C.Fn:06-0
C.Fn:07-0
C.Fn:08-1
C.Fn:09-0
C.Fn:10-0
C.Fn:11-0
C.Fn:12-0
C.Fn:13-0
C.Fn:14-0
C.Fn:15-0
C.Fn:16-0
C.Fn:17-0
C.Fn:18-0
C.Fn:19-0
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting


PM me if you need the raw files as the host doesn't allow raw
files. I hope someone can tell me it can be recovered from raw
files or else.

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
1) if you look at the RGB histogram: are the 3 channels more or less the same? More exact: using the info palette in Photoshop: if you move the cursor over the image: are the RGB values the same

2) Using your RAW converter: what's the color temp of the image as recorded (should be aboot 6500K with your setup

cheers

Robert
 
Based on the image shown, you can fix this by either using a light meter, and shooting on manual, or compensate for the white backgrounds and over-expose maybe a stop or so.

What you're looking at is typical in basic photography, you've seen this before because the labs that processed your film corrected this during developing.

Try taking a few bracketed shot up to +1 stop brighter. You'll be happy with the results.
 
I am waiting for the 30D to come out (not sure how you guys got yours so fast) and now wondering if I should be worried about having to return it - do Canon's have these problems often? I come from a Nikon background - a new convert - :- -:
--
QZM
New Katamari and Canon enthusiast
CATS Member #73 > ^ .. ^
Wabi
 
1) if you look at the RGB histogram: are the 3 channels more or
less the same? More exact: using the info palette in Photoshop: if
you move the cursor over the image: are the RGB values the same

2) Using your RAW converter: what's the color temp of the image as
recorded (should be aboot 6500K with your setup

cheers

Robert
Hi Robert,

You are right the raw files' RGB histogram are almost the same for each color.

The color temp has been set from 5000-7000k combined with all sorts of color orientation/preference in PPD. So far none of the setting results in white color.

Just let me try my links again here so hopeful you can take a look at the images yourself.





thanks.

Thanks

--
Just hit that little white ball and search hard for it.
 
By the way, I wonder where is everybody, I hardly know anyone in this forum anymore, I guess many of you are 30D new users, just like I was about 18 months ago. Hello.

Well, your problem is not white balance, it is exposure. If the colors are just shifting darker and lighter white to gray, etc, it is not white balance. Another thing to take into account is that when taking RAW shots (which you should if you're doing a studio environment) then white balance is totally manageable after the fact (and I mean TOTALLY, as in even more than "before the fact") in any RAW converter.

That said, to your real problem. It depends on what metering mode you are using. If you use evaluative (default) which you are seemingly using, then the camera will calculate an exposure based primarily on the focus point selected (in Auto-focus mode) and secondarily in everything else in the frame, which is divided by areas. It applies some proprietary mysterious algorithms (though not magic) to do that. In your normal scene, it wouldn't have much trouble, but it is not perfect, as magic would probably be.

When you have a very bright background that occupies a lot of the scene, the camera in evaluative metering will try to expose whatever it can evenly, so you will get grayish background, as the camera doesn't know it's supposed to be white. Consequently, you will get an underexposed subject as well. The remedy for this is just use exposure compensation, that's what it's for. The camera can't tell any brightness level of any object (again, not magic), so it just assumes the subject is some level of gray, and then applies the environment's brightness to come up with something.

You can also try other different exposure modes, it would make it easier. Partial only takes into account whatever is in the 9% area (the center circle) and takes that and only that to be some kind of neutral gray. So if your subject fills that circle, the background won't affect the metering at all. You'd probably need to use some exposure compensation as well, depending on the brightness of your subject.

Spot metering allows you to do the same on a smaller area of 3.5% around the center focus point. This might be more useful. Try this with different exposure compensations, and you will be fine.

If you're gonna be trying any of these methods, ir your subject is not in the center of the frame, you will need to shoot either M mode (recommended) taking into account exposure metering deviations, or you will need to meter the subject with the center area/spot, and press the exposure lock ( ) button and then recompose. Exposure is not locked by half pressing the shutter button in these modes as far as I know.

Another metering mode is center weighed, but you can do away with it.
 

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