Ideas for improving the Dark Angel

Peter Epstein

Forum Enthusiast
Messages
462
Reaction score
4
Location
US
First off, I've got to say I'm really quite happy with it. I'm quite confident it's the best digicam out there for me, and for many other people too. However, it's not perfect, and clearly not appropriate for everyone. Here are some things that I think could be improved, in no particular order:

1. I'd like more magnification during manual focus. Instead of a simple on/off choice in the menu, I'd like no magnification, 2x, 3x, and 4x as options.

2. Allow the manual focus ring to be used to drive the zoom when using auto-focus. Why waste such a great input device! SLR users are generally used to rings for both focus and zoom. Turning the focus ring when the switch is set to auto-focus does nothing now, so what's the harm?

3. Depth of field bracketing. Use the bracket step selected in the setup menu, and adjust the shutter speed and aperture in opposite directions (by the specified amount) to create 3 images with the same exposure but different shutter speeds/apertures. This would just be another choice along with exposure bracketing in the record menu. This would be especially nice for candid portraits. By the time you've adjusted the aperture and fired off the next shot, there's no chance the subject will have the same expression.

4. ISO 50. If possible, support a lower ISO for reduced noise. Not that the images are noisy at ISO 100, mind you, but if they could be better at ISO 50, that would be great.

5. I want the ISO to be on the jog dial like aperture, shutter speed, and exposure compensation. These are all exposure controls, so they should be grouped together. Since ISO doesn't deserve a button like exposure compensation has, this means some pretty big changes. Here is how I'd do it: Start by elimination the ISO setting from the menu. In auto mode, the ISO would always be automatic. However, in S/A/M modes, the ISO would be listed along with exposure compensation, f-stop, and shutter speed for easy access with the jog dial. It would always be manual ISO in these modes. The result is no auto ISO in manual exposure modes and no manual ISO in auto exposure modes. However, ISO becomes much more convenient to access.

6. When viewing a portion of an image in playback (zoomed in), allow the jog dial to work to switch between images. Stay at the same zoom level and the same position within the frame. This would allow you to compare a sequence of shots of the same subject to see which looks best for the critical part of the frame. This is especially useful when applied to a burst of 3 shots. Today, the jog dial only works to go between images if you're zoomed all the way out. Otherwise, it's just ignored. What's the harm in letting it function all the time? I suppose the concern is that you can't see the name of the file.

7. Playback zoom beyond 5x. Ideally, I should be able to zoom in until the pixels in the recorded image map directly to pixels on the LCD or EVF. This means the zoom limit is a function of image size.

8. Playback zoom seems sluggish even when the zoom control is pushed firmly. Not a big deal, but the camera is so zippy in other areas, this stands out. Panning could be a bit faster too.

9. Provide a way to separate the auto-focus from the shutter release button. For example, you could have a button on the left side of the lens that causes the camera to do a one-time out-focus (when switched to manual focus).

10. When using the flash as the primary light source rather than fill lighting, you generally want to stop down the lens a bit and use a somewhat faster shutter speed. The result is a dark viewfinder. It would be nice to be able to automatically brighten the viewfinder if the flash is going to fire. The goal would be to provide useful information for framing the shot, not to give any clue to the actual exposure. Since the flash will compensate for the shutter speed and aperture selected, this makes sense. In order to achieve this brighter image, the aperture would have to stay wide open until the shot was taken, so more light hits the CCD during preview. In other words, this is really a question of whether to do depth of field preview or not. That's what the menu should say: depth of field preview: on or off. I'm willing to mess with this setting when switching between flash photography (dark) and daylight photography.

11. Consider opening the aperture all theway during manual focus ring movement (while showing a magnified view). This minimizes depth of field which in turn yields more precise focus. SLRs don't preview depth of field until the user presses a button, so this change would more closely match the behavior of focus on an SLR. This means the depth of preview setting would have three choices: off, off during focus, and always on.

12. The flash popping up is quite loud. It can distract your subject. I'm not sure whether this would best be fixed by adding some kind of rubber stop, or by requiriing the user to manually pop up the flash to enable it (instead of pressing up on the D-pad).

13. Add more data to the list shown for each photo when viewing 3 at a time in playback mode. Focus distance and focal length (in 35mm equivalent) would be nice.

14. This camera has enough to brag about. Get rid of the silly "10x digital zoom" and replace it with "5x optical zoom".

With such a long list, you might think I'm not happy with the 707, but I assure you, that's not the case!--Peter Epstein
 
14. This camera has enough to brag about. Get rid of the silly "10x
digital zoom" and replace it with "5x optical zoom".
It has 5X Optical and , as several owners have posted their Images taken at full10X ( 2xDigital) the quality is really quite remarkable...better than any other Digicam Digital IMHO
With such a long list, you might think I'm not happy with the 707,
but I assure you, that's not the case!
--
Peter Epstein
I have to digest the rest of your "wish List"...others jump in
Don C
p.s....had to clip your message...too many characters...must be a record !
 
Very good suggestions. I agree with almost very point you suggested. Probably Sony should hire you to their F909 design team.

Please try to send your suggestions to Sony as well.

JS
First off, I've got to say I'm really quite happy with it. I'm
quite confident it's the best digicam out there for me, and for
many other people too. However, it's not perfect, and clearly not
appropriate for everyone. Here are some things that I think could
be improved, in no particular order:

1. I'd like more magnification during manual focus. Instead of a
simple on/off choice in the menu, I'd like no magnification, 2x,
3x, and 4x as options.

2. Allow the manual focus ring to be used to drive the zoom when
using auto-focus. Why waste such a great input device! SLR users
are generally used to rings for both focus and zoom. Turning the
focus ring when the switch is set to auto-focus does nothing now,
so what's the harm?

3. Depth of field bracketing. Use the bracket step selected in the
setup menu, and adjust the shutter speed and aperture in opposite
directions (by the specified amount) to create 3 images with the
same exposure but different shutter speeds/apertures. This would
just be another choice along with exposure bracketing in the record
menu. This would be especially nice for candid portraits. By the
time you've adjusted the aperture and fired off the next shot,
there's no chance the subject will have the same expression.

4. ISO 50. If possible, support a lower ISO for reduced noise. Not
that the images are noisy at ISO 100, mind you, but if they could
be better at ISO 50, that would be great.

5. I want the ISO to be on the jog dial like aperture, shutter
speed, and exposure compensation. These are all exposure controls,
so they should be grouped together. Since ISO doesn't deserve a
button like exposure compensation has, this means some pretty big
changes. Here is how I'd do it: Start by elimination the ISO
setting from the menu. In auto mode, the ISO would always be
automatic. However, in S/A/M modes, the ISO would be listed along
with exposure compensation, f-stop, and shutter speed for easy
access with the jog dial. It would always be manual ISO in these
modes. The result is no auto ISO in manual exposure modes and no
manual ISO in auto exposure modes. However, ISO becomes much more
convenient to access.

6. When viewing a portion of an image in playback (zoomed in),
allow the jog dial to work to switch between images. Stay at the
same zoom level and the same position within the frame. This would
allow you to compare a sequence of shots of the same subject to see
which looks best for the critical part of the frame. This is
especially useful when applied to a burst of 3 shots. Today, the
jog dial only works to go between images if you're zoomed all the
way out. Otherwise, it's just ignored. What's the harm in letting
it function all the time? I suppose the concern is that you can't
see the name of the file.

7. Playback zoom beyond 5x. Ideally, I should be able to zoom in
until the pixels in the recorded image map directly to pixels on
the LCD or EVF. This means the zoom limit is a function of image
size.

8. Playback zoom seems sluggish even when the zoom control is
pushed firmly. Not a big deal, but the camera is so zippy in other
areas, this stands out. Panning could be a bit faster too.

9. Provide a way to separate the auto-focus from the shutter
release button. For example, you could have a button on the left
side of the lens that causes the camera to do a one-time out-focus
(when switched to manual focus).

10. When using the flash as the primary light source rather than
fill lighting, you generally want to stop down the lens a bit and
use a somewhat faster shutter speed. The result is a dark
viewfinder. It would be nice to be able to automatically brighten
the viewfinder if the flash is going to fire. The goal would be to
provide useful information for framing the shot, not to give any
clue to the actual exposure. Since the flash will compensate for
the shutter speed and aperture selected, this makes sense. In order
to achieve this brighter image, the aperture would have to stay
wide open until the shot was taken, so more light hits the CCD
during preview. In other words, this is really a question of
whether to do depth of field preview or not. That's what the menu
should say: depth of field preview: on or off. I'm willing to mess
with this setting when switching between flash photography (dark)
and daylight photography.

11. Consider opening the aperture all theway during manual focus
ring movement (while showing a magnified view). This minimizes
depth of field which in turn yields more precise focus. SLRs don't
preview depth of field until the user presses a button, so this
change would more closely match the behavior of focus on an SLR.
This means the depth of preview setting would have three choices:
off, off during focus, and always on.

12. The flash popping up is quite loud. It can distract your
subject. I'm not sure whether this would best be fixed by adding
some kind of rubber stop, or by requiriing the user to manually pop
up the flash to enable it (instead of pressing up on the D-pad).

13. Add more data to the list shown for each photo when viewing 3
at a time in playback mode. Focus distance and focal length (in
35mm equivalent) would be nice.

14. This camera has enough to brag about. Get rid of the silly "10x
digital zoom" and replace it with "5x optical zoom".

With such a long list, you might think I'm not happy with the 707,
but I assure you, that's not the case!
--
Peter Epstein
 
I'd add few more ideas:

1. Multi-point autofocus option, like in Casio line, so camera makes distance measurement in 9 points and then sets focus to the closest point out of nine. This can solve a problem of "couch shots".

2. Shorter shutter release lag. This probably will come for granted, as historically I see Sony cameras improving 1.5 times per year. Looks pretty close to Moors law.

3. Optical image stabilizer. I see a lot of Canon Pro90 people excited about this.

Vladimir.
 
Some great ideas. I agree with many, but
2. Allow the manual focus ring to be used to drive the zoom when
using auto-focus. Why waste such a great input device! SLR users
are generally used to rings for both focus and zoom. Turning the
focus ring when the switch is set to auto-focus does nothing now,
so what's the harm?
How do you zoom when in manual?
4. ISO 50. If possible, support a lower ISO for reduced noise. Not
that the images are noisy at ISO 100, mind you, but if they could
be better at ISO 50, that would be great.
Phil's results indicate the ISO is actually lower than 100 compared to the G2. An the noise level seemed very similar. Also noise processing might slow down the overall frame to frame time.
9. Provide a way to separate the auto-focus from the shutter
release button. For example, you could have a button on the left
side of the lens that causes the camera to do a one-time out-focus
(when switched to manual focus).
Might take some getting used to. This is pretty standard...
11. Consider opening the aperture all the way during manual focus
ring movement (while showing a magnified view). This minimizes
depth of field which in turn yields more precise focus. SLRs don't
preview depth of field until the user presses a button, so this
change would more closely match the behavior of focus on an SLR.
This means the depth of preview setting would have three choices:
off, off during focus, and always on.
This was very useful on my SLR!
14. This camera has enough to brag about. Get rid of the silly "10x
digital zoom" and replace it with "5x optical zoom".
This does NOT appear to be your standard digital zoom...

As I said, great comments, just adding my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Ron
 
Add studio / non-proprietary flash connectivity. I would settle for being able to buy a Sony cable to connect my flash systems. I know I can use a smart slave trigger or the Sony external flash to fire a slave trigger, but already have money invested in other flashes. The HVL-F1000 cable is too short to use with a bracket to get the flash away from the lens. How about an extension cable for the Sony flash? :( Rant over. 1200 pitchas later I am still amazed at the image quality of this camera!

Toby
 
Hi,

Addding new features to a camera has (at least) 3 drawbacks:
It increases camera's price;
It adds new bugs;
It makes using the camera more complicated - something not everyone would love.

Let's attack this issue from its other end: What features are you ready to REMOVE from the current 707? Are there any? (I have an idea what I would like to remove, but first I have to get from Dell my camera, and see that for myself).

Regards, Yehuda
First off, I've got to say I'm really quite happy with it. I'm
quite confident it's the best digicam out there for me, and for
many other people too. However, it's not perfect, and clearly not
appropriate for everyone. Here are some things that I think could
be improved, in no particular order:
 
Shalom Yehuda!

When are you going to get your gelibteh 707? I keep hearing about it but I am not seeing your pictures? ;-)

Your hitskop friend,
Tigadee
Yehuda Katz wrote:
Hi,

Let's attack this issue from its other end: What features are you
ready to REMOVE from the current 707? Are there any? (I have an
idea what I would like to remove, but first I have to get from
Dell my camera, and see that for myself).

Regards, Yehuda
 
How do you zoom when in manual?
I was thinking of keeping the zoom toggle as it is. Actually, it should at least be oriented differently - it seems backwards to me. The zoom toggle could always be used for controlling zoom, while the focus ring would only sometimes be available for zooming. If we're willing to make more significant hardware changes, how about a second ring: one for focus, and one for zoom, just like on a modern SLR zoom lens. That would be ideal.
Phil's results indicate the ISO is actually lower than 100 compared
to the G2. An the noise level seemed very similar. Also noise
processing might slow down the overall frame to frame time.
If the ISO can be lowered easily, great. If not, forget it. Not a big deal.
Might take some getting used to. This is pretty standard...
On pro SLRs, separating the focus from shutter release is getting more common, from what I can tell. I've also heard that the D30 can be set up this way, and many prefer it. This is a feature that might not be appropriate given the market for this camera, but something I would like to personally.
This was very useful on my SLR!
Yeah, I was always amazed when I used other people's SLRs and found that many lacked DOF preview. Seemed essential to me.
This does NOT appear to be your standard digital zoom...
I admit I just turned off digital zoom as soon as I got the camera. Still, the 5x optical zoom range and the brightness (f/2.4 at 190mm) is just amazing, whereas anyone can do 10x digital zoom if they're willing to compromise on quality. So, as a feature to advertise, maybe they should focus on the brightness and reach of the lens.
--
Peter Epstein
 
Very good suggestions. I agree with almost very point you
suggested. Probably Sony should hire you to their F909 design team.

Please try to send your suggestions to Sony as well.
That's quite a complement. Thank you! I figured we should discuss them here first, but I do plan on letting Sony know about these ideas.
--
Peter Epstein
 
Addding new features to a camera has (at least) 3 drawbacks:
It increases camera's price;
It adds new bugs;
It makes using the camera more complicated - something not everyone
would love.

Let's attack this issue from its other end: What features are you
ready to REMOVE from the current 707? Are there any? (I have an
idea what I would like to remove, but first I have to get from
Dell my camera, and see that for myself).
Yes, simplicity is key. I don't mean to imply that all my suggestions should be implemented. The most valuable improvements should be made. And yes, the least used features should be removed. What would I remove? Well, the negative art and other effects seem silly to me. I can see keeping a sepia and black & white option, but forget the others. I also don't particularly need all those image sizes. I don't particularly need the SCN feature either. The problem is that each person chooses the Dark Angel for different reasons. Features I don't care about might be very important to others. Choosing the feature set is a tricky problem.
--
Peter Epstein
 
I applaud your creative list of suggestions!

In particular I like #3 and 10. #3 is implimented in some cameras in a manual fashion; in the G-2 it is activated in the program (not same as auto) mode and is called program shift with 2 combinations of shutter and apeture available above and below the defalut value. This featue needs more memory (come on Sony where are the larger sticks?).

As you discussed, people buy a given camera for many different purposes, and with various levels of photographic expertise. Your list shows that you have substantial photographic experience, and that Sony could expand its market penetration in the top end consumer cameras (customers like you and I) by giving the photographer more control. On the other hand, Sony's bread and butter lies more along the lines of full auto shooters (a far larger market segment) so they are always trying to balance the feature set of the top end camera to sell to both. Plenty of novice shooters buying F707s too! In the cybershot Sony cameras they been careful not to give the photographer too much control (like satuation, histograms or RAW). My interpretation is that they believe these features will make the camera more difficult to master for the masses and are not worth the added expense to their targeted market segment.

Let me end with my primary suggestion for improvement, and that is a faster and more reliable auto focusing mechanism. The slowness and lack of reliability of auto focusing (like on a moving subject) is the #1 common complaint of all consumer digicams, especially when compared to the typical phase focusing systems of 35 mm. Outstanding focusing performance will make any consumer digicam stand out and improve sales.
Mike K
3. Depth of field bracketing. Use the bracket step selected in the
setup menu, and adjust the shutter speed and aperture in opposite
directions (by the specified amount) to create 3 images with the
same exposure but different shutter speeds/apertures. This would
just be another choice along with exposure bracketing in the record
menu. This would be especially nice for candid portraits. By the
time you've adjusted the aperture and fired off the next shot,
there's no chance the subject will have the same expression.

10. When using the flash as the primary light source rather than
fill lighting, you generally want to stop down the lens a bit and
use a somewhat faster shutter speed. The result is a dark
viewfinder. It would be nice to be able to automatically brighten
the viewfinder if the flash is going to fire. The goal would be to
provide useful information for framing the shot, not to give any
clue to the actual exposure. Since the flash will compensate for
the shutter speed and aperture selected, this makes sense. In order
to achieve this brighter image, the aperture would have to stay
wide open until the shot was taken, so more light hits the CCD
during preview. In other words, this is really a question of
whether to do depth of field preview or not. That's what the menu
should say: depth of field preview: on or off. I'm willing to mess
with this setting when switching between flash photography (dark)
and daylight photography.
 
Peter,

For me, the most missing feature is a hot flash shoe. This would eliminate most of the current coplaints about flash.

After it I would love to have a histogram. Once you've used it, it is difficult to do without it. This will eliminate most of the complaints about too bright/dark LCD/EVF.

I'm full-heartedly ready to remove from the 707 the filming feature.

Regards, Yehuda
Addding new features to a camera has (at least) 3 drawbacks:
It increases camera's price;
It adds new bugs;
It makes using the camera more complicated - something not everyone
would love.

Let's attack this issue from its other end: What features are you
ready to REMOVE from the current 707? Are there any? (I have an
idea what I would like to remove, but first I have to get from
Dell my camera, and see that for myself).
Yes, simplicity is key. I don't mean to imply that all my
suggestions should be implemented. The most valuable improvements
should be made. And yes, the least used features should be removed.
What would I remove? Well, the negative art and other effects seem
silly to me. I can see keeping a sepia and black & white option,
but forget the others. I also don't particularly need all those
image sizes. I don't particularly need the SCN feature either. The
problem is that each person chooses the Dark Angel for different
reasons. Features I don't care about might be very important to
others. Choosing the feature set is a tricky problem.
--
Peter Epstein
 
I've been using a Nikon F3 SLR, so I'm happy to have any kind of auto-focus! I know that even some D30 owners complain about auto-focus. Once you've used a pro quality Canon body, apparently all other auto-focus systems fall short.

Program shift is nice. how about replacing the scene mode on the dial with a P mode? Then it can show both aperture and shutter speed on the right, and let you shift both of them via the jog dial (changing either one would also affect the other).

I appreciate the challenge Sony has with this camera, as it clearly bridges the gap between a point and shoot and an SLR. For novices, I thing the auto mode needs to make more intelligent choices for aperture. I don't know how that might be done, but getting blurry results from auto mode for indoor snapshots with flash is not going to help sell more product! Maybe something as simple as stopping the lens down to F/2.8 would do the trick.

I appreciate the complement on my photograhic experience. Actually, I'm just analytical/serious when it comes to my hobbies, that's all!
--
Peter Epstein
 
Hi,

my first post. Being a 35mm Contax-G user myself, the "Carl Zeiss" brandname, along with other great features is currently luring me towards the new Sony 707. I tried to read up as much as possible about the camera, but I might have missed the answer to my question (so please be patient with me on this one):

My question is, whether the Laser beam assisted AF might be a nuisance to spectators and other photographers when shooting a public appearance, for example someone giving a speech or a concert?

Is this an issue? If so, can the laser be turned off? Is there a secondary, passive af? What will the af performance be like in such a case?

cheers matt
 
Excellent thread. Glad you brought it up. When there is a general consensus on what should and shouldn't be modified I'll incorporate them. In the meantime, here's what I have so far:

 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top