Adobe RBG & rRBG

as you probably already know, the smugmug help section has lots of
interesting articles.

http://www.smugmug.com/help/srgb-versus-adobe-rgb-1998
The smugmug article is seriously flawed. From comparing aRGB and
sRGB photos(impossible with a presumed sRGB viewing monitor) to
stating prophoto RGB is 16 bit but Adobe RGB is only 8 bit.

Looks oriented toward rationalizing why photo printers normally use
sRGB. Gee, kinda hard to explain why CostCo's printers have a
larger than sRGB gamut and can have the sRGB bypassed to accomplish
this.
Yes. This is a pet peeve of mine. Why does it seem that everybody gives lip service to "color management", but then blows it away by recommending sRGB for prints. As opposed to choosing a lab that supports custom printer profiles. As exemplified by this from the smugmug article:

"Photographic paper and chemicals do not allow you to use all the colors of Adobe 98. For that reason, the sRGB tide has swept North American printers. The top labs, such as whcc, MPIX, EZ Prints (our lab), Shutterfly (whom we used to use), Kodak, Fujifilm, Photobox, Costco, Snapfish, Wolfe's, etc., all expect your file to be in sRGB and if it isn't, your prints will look washed out."

In this forum, whenever anybody asks "what is a good online lab?", "whcc" and MPIX are usually the answers. These are sRGB-only labs that don't support printer profiles.

Of course, answering this would put a serious crimp in the business model of "an online web gallery that also supports ordering prints." Because images that are converted to a printer profile usually aren't suitable for looking at on the web. So you'd need to maintain and upload two sets of images--one set optimized to look good on the web (sRGB) and a second set optimized for print (converted to a printer profile.) With the implication that you'd soft proof and choose rendering intent for each conversion, for each image, times two. (Once to sRGB and again to the printer profile.)

I guess color management is too much bother to use, right?

Wayne Larmon
 
I guess color management is too much bother to use, right?
i'm still trying to figure that out. it's not clear i'm missing anything by living in an sRGB world. and it is clearly more work to live in both if you share images online. so i've added to my reading list today by ordering scott kelby's book and digital dog's... i am sure i will be back with questions...

--
Lee
 
The smugmug article is seriously flawed.
I'll go one farther, it's absolute nonsense! Yup, it's really
technically flawed. These guys don't have a clue.
I'd say that they know exactly what they are doing. They are blowing smoke into people's eyes, such that they can lead them down the path to

"Photographic paper and chemicals do not allow you to use all the colors of Adobe 98. For that reason, the sRGB tide has swept North American printers. The top labs, such as whcc, MPIX, EZ Prints (our lab), Shutterfly (whom we used to use), Kodak, Fujifilm, Photobox, Costco, Snapfish, Wolfe's, etc., all expect your file to be in sRGB and if it isn't, your prints will look washed out."

After this, it sounds like it is a real mistake to use anything except for sRGB.

However.... using a larger color space pretty much assumes using full PhotoShop, because none of the lesser image editing programs let you soft proof with different rendering intents and convert to different printer profiles in any meaningful way. (Do they?) And using printer profiles assumes that the lab you use actually has printer profiles that you can use. Sadly, this is increasingly rare. Especially for those of us that don't have any decent local lab and have to use an online lab.

Wayne Larmon
 
I guess color management is too much bother to use, right?
i'm still trying to figure that out. it's not clear i'm missing
anything by living in an sRGB world. and it is clearly more work
to live in both if you share images online. so i've added to my
reading list today by ordering scott kelby's book and digital
dog's... i am sure i will be back with questions...
There are three areas where you need to look with respect to color gamut:

1. The gamut of the capture device. In reality, digital cameras and scanners don't have a gamut (they have what is called a color mixing function). None the less there is a gamut to film (which limits what the scanner produces). There's a real world of color gamut we see and it's pretty huge. Anytime you see one of those horseshoe plots of color (CIE chromaticity diagram), you're seeing the gamut of human vision. A digital camera can capture a huge range of color. All you need to do is take a RAW file of a very colorful scene in Adobe Camera RAW and examine it's Histogram for color clipping. I have tons of images that fall far outside Adobe RGB gamut. IF (big if) I want to contain the colors I shot, I need to use a much larger gamut like ProPhoto RGB (in 16-bit).

When you set your camera to sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998) and throw away the RAW file, you have no control over this. However, there's no question that selecting Adobe RGB will provide a larger gamut of captured colors compared to sRGB assuming the scene has a larger gamut than sRGB. That's pretty likely. Is capturing those important to you?

2. The gamut of the output device. You've decided that you do want to contain colors in the scene your capture device has collected. Now there's the gamut of the output device. Anyone that tells you "no output device exceeds sRGB" is smoking some very bad stuff or simply doesn't know what they are talking about. Again, by viewing a gamut plot (in 3D preferably), you can find all kinds of output devices that have colors that it can reproduce outside of sRGB. Are those color important to you? As I mentioned, the new K3 inkset from Epson produces colors that fall outside of Adobe RGB (1998)!

3. There's the gamut of your display. 99.9% of users have a gamut that's no larger than sRGB. There are new displays on the market that exceed Adobe RGB (1998) but at a huge cost (today). So there ARE colors you can capture and output you can't see on your sRGB display. The question becomes, do you throw away those colors you captured AND CAN reproduce away because you can't see them all? I think not but maybe some do.

This is all about flexibility and future output needs. IF you know that the scene gamut/camera can't exceed sRGB AND you know your printer can't produce anything larger than sRGB (get a new printer ), then sure, stick with sRGB. But if you look at just Epson and the evolution of increasing gamuts in ink technology, why paint yourself into a corner???

Those silly labs that tell you "just send is sRGB and all is well" are either lazy, don't understand color management or simply don't want YOU to decide how to handle YOUR files! There are NO printers on the planet that produce sRGB!!! The only sRGB device is a CRT display in a very fixed and defined environment. In fact sRGB is a totally synthetic color space designed using pure math (as are all the other RGB working spaces). These labs just don't want to profile their devices so you can soft proof the image, they don't want to worry about embedded profiles and want their automatic systems to simply assume all files are sRGB. Then they do a conversion to the printer color space on the fly. It makes them very productive. However, you lose a lot of control over how you render an image for an output device.

--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
There are three areas where you need to look with respect to color
gamut:

1. The gamut of the capture device.
i just started reading Camera Raw by Bruce Fraser and it didn't take more than 20 pages to 'get it' that i want to work/convert raw in 16 bit mode,Adobe RGB -- simply to give me much more data to work with.
2. The gamut of the output device.
this is where i'm struggling. i can't find info on my printer gamut. i recently got a canon ip6600D. i don't know about 'professional' printers , but i think the output of this printer is absolutely phenominal. what i don't have any sense of is how much beyond sRGB do i get from this printer. Do i even get CMYk space? anything i have been able to read so far always refers to generic "home-use ink jets" as RGB printers. what IS that? if a printer uses RGB inks is that an RGB printer? if a printer uses CMYk inks is that a CMYk printer? mine uses c m y k and "photo cyan" and "photo magenta". is that still an RGB printer? what does that mean?
3. There's the gamut of your display. 99.9% of users have a gamut
that's no larger than sRGB. There are new displays on the market
that exceed Adobe RGB (1998) but at a huge cost (today).
yeah, i'm not ready to go for a $5000 EIZO display, but i think i do need to upgrade what i have (my 5yr old sony lcd is very difficult to calibrate)
This is all about flexibility and future output needs.
i've ordered your book. is that going to help me figure out how to maximize monitor and printer output, or is it too 'consumer level'? (i sure do like the printer output -- in fact, i've stopped using the online services to print. i get just as good from my own)

thanks for your feedback

--
Lee
 
i just started reading Camera Raw by Bruce Fraser and it didn't
take more than 20 pages to 'get it' that i want to work/convert raw
in 16 bit mode,Adobe RGB -- simply to give me much more data to
work with.
Go farther you'll learn about the saturation clipping and how you might want an even larger working space!
this is where i'm struggling. i can't find info on my printer
gamut.
You need an ICC profile which defines the gamut (color space) of this device. Then you need some utility to see the gamut. On the Mac, the ColorSync utility will do this for you.
Do i even get CMYk space?
You send it RGB data. It uses CMYK (and maybe more CMYK's) for output. It's gamut is certainly larger than a four color CMYK press.
anything i have been able to read so far always refers to generic
"home-use ink jets" as RGB printers. what IS that? if a printer
uses RGB inks is that an RGB printer?
There are only a tiny few true CMY printers (RGB is an additive color space meaning you make color with light). Printers are subtractive devices. Anyway, lets use a printer I know; an Epson 2200. Its a CcMmYKk printer but due to the driver, you send it RGB data and the black box (the driver) does the conversions to CcMmYKk. So technically it's not an RGB printer (that's not possible) and technically it's not a CMY printer either. Nor is it a CMYK printer. All you need to worry about is sending it the right mix of RGB so it can do it's conversions.
yeah, i'm not ready to go for a $5000 EIZO display,
Well for that money, you could get a much better wide gamut unit (the NEC LED-wide gamut display).
i've ordered your book. is that going to help me figure out how to
maximize monitor and printer output, or is it too 'consumer level'?
It better! ;-)

--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
i can't find info on my printer gamut.
You need an ICC profile which defines the gamut (color space) of
this device. Then you need some utility to see the gamut. On the
Mac, the ColorSync utility will do this for you.
If you have Windows XP, Microsoft has a neat free "Color Control Applet" that displays color gamuts.



http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/prophoto/colorcontrol.mspx

It is perfect for comparing the size of two different gamuts. i.e., sRGB and whatever printer profile you are investigating.

Wayne Larmon
 
If you're using Photoshop, then you will be fine. I don't see anything limiting about your equipment.
--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
After this, it sounds like it is a real mistake to use anything
except for sRGB.
If you are posting photos that will displayed on the Internet, it is. All Windows-based browsers assume your file is sRGB. If it's in Adobe RGB, it will look washed out.

As far as printing goes, here's a good, short article why commercial printers and photographers who use printers like Fuji Frontiers think like they do:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sRGB-AdobeRGB1998.htm

At SmugMug we recommend the books of Dan Margulis because we believe as he does -- that different color spaces have different strengths. Just like Jeeps are good offroad and Ferraris rule on the track, sRGB rules the net and is good for commercial printers; Adobe RGB is good for ink jet prints, LAB is great for certain types of color correction, etc.

We see about 75 million photos a year get uploaded for online display and 2 million of them get printed through commercial printers. As a practical, real-world issue, Adobe RGB, a good color space for other jobs, more often than not produces poor results for web-based display and printing.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Chris
 
If you are posting photos that will displayed on the Internet, it
is. All Windows-based browsers assume your file is sRGB. If it's
in Adobe RGB, it will look washed out.
Actually, it's due to the fact that most displays, with the exception of the very few expensive wide gamut systems produce or can product sRGB. The browsers simply send the RGB numbers to the screen; they have no idea about the display profile (if one exists) or the color space of the file they preview. If and when the time comes that the majority of displays produce the Adobe RGB gamut (or if even a decent majority did), then viewing files in Adobe RGB (1998) on these displays would look OK and sRGB would look rotten.

That sRGB isn't based on an output device, sending it to a lab pretty much ensures that the soft proof isn't going to match the resulting print. The only sRGB device is a display (explicitly a CRT with specific chromaticity and gamma settings). At least that's the basis for this totally synthetic color space.
As far as printing goes, here's a good, short article why
commercial printers and photographers who use printers like Fuji
Frontiers think like they do:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sRGB-AdobeRGB1998.htm
--> Adobe RGB 1998 was designed (by Adobe Systems, Inc.) to encompass most of the colors achievable on CMYK printers, but by using only RGB primary colors on a device such as your computer display

In fact Adobe RGB (1998) was a happy accident. It was supposed to be SMPTE-240M based on HDTV spec's but Adobe got two of the chromaticity values wrong due to a mis-print on the SMPTE web site discussing this space. It was SMPTE that had Adobe change the name (since it's NOT SMPTE-240M).

--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
Actually...if and when...sRGB would look rotten.
The here and now, however, is Adobe 98 looks bad on the Internet and sRGB looks good. That's been true since the dawn of browsers on the Internet.

Monitor manufacturers will need some good salesmanship to convince consumers to make the billions of photos now on the Internet look rotten. There are many ways to advance display technology without doing that.

Chris
 
If you are posting photos that will displayed on the Internet, it
is. All Windows-based browsers assume your file is sRGB. If it's
in Adobe RGB, it will look washed out.
Actually, it's due to the fact that most displays, with the
exception of the very few expensive wide gamut systems produce or
can product sRGB. The browsers simply send the RGB numbers to the
screen; they have no idea about the display profile (if one exists)
or the color space of the file they preview. If and when the time
comes that the majority of displays produce the Adobe RGB gamut (or
if even a decent majority did), then viewing files in Adobe RGB
(1998) on these displays would look OK and sRGB would look rotten.
This needs to be repeated loudly and often. Much confusion over colorspaces comes about because the limited sRGB gamut, at least in respect to easily printable colors, can't be seen. Even worse, some of the LCD displays that are the brightest and look good in stores get their brightness by using wider color RGB filters on the LCD cells to provide extra luminance at the expense of gamut that is even smaller than sRGB.

This is one reason I believe people should stick to sRGB until they understand colorspaces. Confusion here is too likely to make people just give up on color management altogether and go back to just tweeking images to match a printer/monitor. While this works, it makes it very hard to upgrade new equipment without having to change workflow each time.
A great site. Good info though it has the same black-> gray gradient problem under the "view" menu that Drycreek has due to lack of color managed browsers. In these cases it is the tone curve difference that aren't accounted for, not color.

marty
--> Adobe RGB 1998 was designed (by Adobe Systems, Inc.) to
encompass most of the colors achievable on CMYK printers, but by
using only RGB primary colors on a device such as your computer
display

In fact Adobe RGB (1998) was a happy accident. It was supposed to
be SMPTE-240M based on HDTV spec's but Adobe got two of the
chromaticity values wrong due to a mis-print on the SMPTE web site
discussing this space. It was SMPTE that had Adobe change the name
(since it's NOT SMPTE-240M).

--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
digidog wrote:
The here and now, however, is Adobe 98 looks bad on the Internet
and sRGB looks good.
Not on my wide gamut display; just the opposite.

That's been true since the dawn of browsers
on the Internet.
As have been sRGB gamut displays. That's no longer the case.
Monitor manufacturers will need some good salesmanship to convince
consumers to make the billions of photos now on the Internet look
rotten.
One would question then why there are no color aware (ICC savvy) web browsers on Windows (there are a few on the Mac). Seems a lot easier to fix the software than change the billions of images.

--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
After this, it sounds like it is a real mistake to use anything
except for sRGB.
If you are posting photos that will displayed on the Internet, it
is. All Windows-based browsers assume your file is sRGB. If it's
in Adobe RGB, it will look washed out.
??? The paragraph from Smugmug that I quoted talked exclusively about prints. Why are you bringing the Internet and browsers in?
As far as printing goes, here's a good, short article why
commercial printers and photographers who use printers like Fuji
Frontiers think like they do:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sRGB-AdobeRGB1998.htm

At SmugMug we recommend the books of Dan Margulis because we
believe as he does -- that different color spaces have different
strengths. Just like Jeeps are good offroad and Ferraris rule on
the track, sRGB rules the net and is good for commercial printers;
Adobe RGB is good for ink jet prints, LAB is great for certain
types of color correction, etc.
I have seen other gamut comparisons that show Frontier type printers having larger gamuts, that exceed sRGB's gamut. This usually involves a custom profile. I don't think choosing a particular printer profile that has a gamut that is entirely contained within sRGB proves that all similar printers have gamuts that are entirely contained within sRGB. But I'll defer to the experts on this point. Andrew....?

This article also doesn't explain how much potential color is lost by submitting image files in sRGB, followed by the printer's software converting to the real printer's profile. (There are no printers that natively print in sRGB.)

Compared to starting in a gamut that is larger than the printer's (in 16 bit if needed to prevent posterization), soft proofing and comparing various rendering intents to see which rendering intent is optimum, and then converting from the larger gamut to the printer's profile.
We see about 75 million photos a year get uploaded for online
display and 2 million of them get printed through commercial
printers. As a practical, real-world issue, Adobe RGB, a good
color space for other jobs, more often than not produces poor
results for web-based display and printing.
Yes, people that don't understand color management will create hash if they plop Adobe RGB images onto web sites and if they blindly have Adobe RGB images printed without regard to the color space that the printer expects. But this does not prove that using sRGB from beginning to end is a superior method of production.

If what you really mean is "most of our customers are hamfisted idiots that shouldn't be trusted with blunt crayons", then say this. But don't try to claim that rubber room methods that protect hamfisted idiots are superior.

Wayne Larmon
 
Actually...if and when...sRGB would look rotten.
The here and now, however, is Adobe 98 looks bad on the Internet
and sRGB looks good. That's been true since the dawn of browsers
on the Internet.

Monitor manufacturers will need some good salesmanship to convince
consumers to make the billions of photos now on the Internet look
rotten. There are many ways to advance display technology without
doing that.
Umm, how? The CG220 uses a compromise. One can create a native profile but also one can map that profile, within the monitor, to any subset such as sRGB or L-Star. One can switch between them as required. Unfortunately, they don't have a command line interface to do so or a way to toggle spaces whenever running Photoshop.

Until then we have to wait until browsers become colorspace aware.

marty
 
One would question then why there are no color aware (ICC savvy)
web browsers on Windows (there are a few on the Mac). Seems a lot
easier to fix the software than change the billions of images.
One of life's mysteries - or Microsoft's quirks. I wonder if there is some sort of patent coverage that would limit this.
--
Andrew Rodney
Author of Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net
 
One would question then why there are no color aware (ICC savvy)
web browsers on Windows (there are a few on the Mac). Seems a lot
easier to fix the software than change the billions of images.
One reason is ICC profiles are big relative to the small thumbnails that populate the Internet. CNN, Amazon, eBay and the photo sharing sites don't want to attach ICC profiles to display images and hear about how slow their sites are.

We strip them from display images for that reason but leave them attached to the original images (which most commercial printers then ignore).

Two of the Mac browsers you're probably referring to, Safari and IE, are ICC aware but confuse most people because they behave differently than you'd expect. With Safari, when no ICC profile is embedded in the photo, it uses the monitor profile. On Internet Explorer, if you’ve taken the time to go into preferences and check the box that says use ColorSync, it uses sRGB.

Here's one photo with an ICC profile attached, 3 browsers, and four different renderings. Not real-world consumer-friendly.

 

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