580EX beamwidth anomaly - who goes first?

I'm thinking about getting a 580ex, are there still bad units in the shops, or did Canon recall the early batch?

thanks.

Hi, rock,

digitalrock said:

I'm thinking about getting a 580ex, are there still bad units in
the shops, or did Canon recall the early batch?

Click to expand...

I doubt if there has been any recall.

It looks as if the serial number is above perhaps 190000 that the unit will be of the new type. Certainly above 200000 should be safe.

Best regards,

Doug

Visit The Pumpkin, a library of my technical articles on photography, optics, and other topics:

http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin

'Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.'

After reading the last few posts of this form I was encouraged that Canon might have finally admitted that there is a problem with "sensor" matching with the 20d and the 580ex.

I called Canon service in CA to inquire about sending my equipment in to get it fixed and they did not know anything about it. Apparently this was the first time this tech had ever heard that the flash will not zoom all the way out to 24mm on an APS sensor camera.

I can not dwell on this too much since it brings back old memories that make me want to switch to Nikon. But, I really like Canon's equipment. I just don't like thier customer service.

Anyway, on the 5d it dosen't matter.....

Hi, m

mmacfive said:

I called Canon service in CA to inquire about sending my equipment
in to get it fixed and they did not know anything about it.
Apparently this was the first time this tech had ever heard that
the flash will not zoom all the way out to 24mm on an APS sensor
camera.

Click to expand...

Well, it will be interesting to see what happens to the various "behavior X" 580EX machines now being sent to Canon Service in various regions around the globe.

mmacfive said:

Anyway, on the 5d it dosen't matter.....

Click to expand...

So, have you not heard that on a 5D, the 580EX does not ever set a head position narrower than 70 mm?

Well, I haven't heard that either.

Best regards,

Doug

Visit The Pumpkin, a library of my technical articles on photography, optics, and other topics:

http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin

'Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.'

Hi Doug,

Just as I mentioned in my other post that canon replied that the current 580ex units on sale in the market do not suffer from this anomaly.

I agree with a few people's ppinion here that canon customer service is mostly not too good, they sometimes even deny existance of problems even if they are aware, in short they are not accustomed to accepting their mistakes.

However I have still not bought one because you never know suddenly if you get a new piece which still suffers from this anomaly, the main issue is since canon has not really accepted this anomaly in the first place it will be difficult to get them to repair it if we have it. Maybe I'll consider buying the 430ex which will save me some money to buy some lenses in future if I want. Still not sure what I want to do

Best Regards,

cool7jr

Doug Kerr said:

We seem to have confirmed that early production Speedlite 580EX
units exhibit differentn behavior with respect to beamwidth control
than later production units - the behavior of the earlier ones
("Behavior X", in the terms of my reserach) being, to me, clearly
anomalous, and I suspect the result of a faux pas in firmware
development.

For those not familiar with this issue, you can read about it here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=17303868

So who will be the first of you with a "Behavior X" 580EX to go to
Canon and say, "My 580EX doesn't work right - will you fix it?"

I can't - I don't even own one!

Hoppy - how about you? You probably have two of each flavor! You
could clearly describe to Canon how they work differently.

If anybody wants to, I can suggest some language to be used in the
approach.

Best regards,

Doug

Visit The Pumpkin, a library of my technical articles on
photography, optics, and other topics:

http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin

'Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.'

Click to expand...

Hello guys,

I think I've got this thing sorted by Canon UK now, free of charge, but it's not been easy. And I'm not there yet!

Got back from vacation and found my two 'Behaviour X' units returned from Canon. Attached to both units was a note saying "Check and test all functions - no fault found."

WHAT!!!

So I got on the phone and spoke to a very helpful guy, Paul Wotton at Canon's Elstree service centre. I told him about the problem, and what equipment he would need to see it for himself. He went off to collect the necessary bits and called me back within a few minutes. His 580EX had a serial number beginning 00, obviously an early production 'Behaviour X' model. I told him exactly what would happen, and why it was wrong. He ran through the procedure and agreed it didn't seem right. But he didn't have a newer unit to compare it against so pledged to conduct some thorough tests, consult with colleagues and read this thread.

True to his word, he got back to me this morning, agreed that there was a fault on early serial number units and that they would fix it for me immediately. He also mentioned that there had been no formal notification from Canon HQ about this matter, which I think explains why my faulty units were tested and found to be okay. When checked against a similarly faulty unit, which was mistakenly believed to be functioning 100% correctly, they are bound to report that the unit is working properly!

I'll let you know what happens next. Hopefully a satisfactory conclusion!

Best regards,

Richard.

Thanks Doug Kerr & John Pane for all of your work on the faulty behavior of the early 580EX flash units. My 580EX has a serial number of 025xxx and clearly performs incorrectly. I contacted Canon Factory Service last Friday and was on the phone for about 20 minutes with someone named Zack. He also had an early unit but couldn't understand my explanation of the problem. He felt sure that everything was working correctly since the LCD panel indicated 24mm in auto zoom for his 17mm lens. No matter how I explained the problem he apparently couldn't bring himself to look at the flash head or step through the process of listening to the flash zoom or not zoom at the appropriate times. He seemed more interested in telling me his background in photography and how I must not know how the 580EX operates!

I tried another call to Factory Service but could never reach a technically qualified representative. Since this upset me a bit and since I have a couple of problems with another Canon product (70-200mm F2.8L IS USM lens) which the Canon Factory Service Center in CA has not recognized or repaired, I wrote a letter to the President & CEO of Canon Inc. detailing the problems with the flash and lens and requested repair or replacement. I enclosed a print showing poor flash coverage for the auto zoom with a 17mm lens on my 20D and a print showing more uniform coverage for the manual setting of the flash to 24mm. I also sent flash head prints for 24mm & 35mm settings which show how easy it is to confirm the minimum flash setting of 35mm for auto operation on the 20D. I pointed out to him that Canon has corrected the problem in more recent flash units and that their repair center in Germany has recognized the problem and corrected it for at least one person. I also suggested that it would be very valuable to be able to talk to a technically qualified person when a call is made to one of their service centers in the USA. The letter was mailed Saturday and should be delivered in 4 to 7 days.
I hope it will accomplish something positive.

Harold Ables
http://www.IMAGESbyABLES.com

Richard,

Thank you for the report.

My unit is on its way back from Canon Repair (New Jersey). Email status reports from Canon indicate it was repaired free of charge even though the warranty expired in December. I will report again once I've received the unit and tested it.

John

HoppyUK said:

I think I've got this thing sorted by Canon UK now, free of charge,
but it's not been easy. And I'm not there yet!

Click to expand...

Harold,

Thanks for posting your experience.

I did not ever get confirmation over the phone from Canon that there was a problem or that they would fix units sent in. But after hearing that a unit in Germany was repaired, I sent my unit in for repair with a detailed letter. Email updates from the repair center indicate they have repaired it free of charge, even though my warranty expired in December. (I did contact Canon prior to the warranty expiration about this problem and provided documentation of that in the letter.)

I should receive the unit back in the next day or two and will post an update on this forum once I've had a chance to test it.

John

H Ables said:

I tried another call to Factory Service but could never reach a
technically qualified representative. Since this upset me a bit
and since I have a couple of problems with another Canon product
(70-200mm F2.8L IS USM lens) which the Canon Factory Service Center
in CA has not recognized or repaired, I wrote a letter to the
President & CEO of Canon Inc. detailing the problems with the flash
and lens and requested repair or replacement.

Click to expand...

Hi, Richard,

HoppyUK said:

I'll let you know what happens next. Hopefully a satisfactory
conclusion!

Click to expand...

Good work. I think you may have precipitated a breakthough.

Thanks for seeing this through.

Best regards,

Doug

Visit The Pumpkin, a library of my technical articles on photography, optics, and other topics:

http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin

'Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.'

Hi, Harold,

H Ables said:

The letter was mailed Saturday and
should be delivered in 4 to 7 days.

Click to expand...

H Ables said:

I hope it will accomplish something positive.

Click to expand...

Good work! Maybe we can gather a critical mass here. It looks as though Hoppy has gotten Elstree (UK) on the right track.

We are all waiting to see how John Pane's machine works when it comes back from Canon. (We hope that they didn't just find some other fault to fiX but not the X vs Y problem!)

Thanks for your efforts.

Best regards,

Doug

I want to send my 'x' unit in for warranty repair..
but I want to copy the CEO you your letter mailed to..

could you PLEASE post the address... you sent to
or is this a bad idea...??

I have drafted a letter based on all these posts and DOUG's first draft...
but I want this to 'go' with out a lot of coaxing..

I feel a letter CC to the CEO of Canon might help a bit..
what do you think..??

-----------
NOTE:
by the way...

I am sending to IRVINE...where I had marvelous service to all my camera / lens just before warranty expired..

any feedback is appreceated...

TOM

Good on you Harold

Why Canon has not informed its subsidiaries of this problem is a mystery. It would save everybody a huge amount of time and trouble because when you come up against this problem 'blind' so to speak, it is exceedingly hard to work out what is happening, and what should be happening. It very nearly sent me mad and I got it wrong at least once, such are the potential permutations that have to be tried and eliminated. It is only thanks to this thread and Doug's patient monitoring and coaching that I am now confident of arguing with Canon's service engineers and making progress.

In my endeavours, I have learned the following. Canon service in the UK is very willing and helpful, but they don't know of the problem and when customer units are tested against their own samples (likely to be early serial numbers and therefore also faulty) it checks out okay. Confusion and frustration all round.

It was only when I was able to speak on the phone with a qualified technician in possession of the right equipment that the penny dropped. This is how I explained things to Canon UK.

1) Take a 20D or 350D camera.

2) Get a 580EX with a serial number lower than 180000. Set Cust Fnct 11 to 0 = Enabled.
3) Fit 10-22mm zoom lens.

4) Agree with technician that the flash head should zoom at around 18mm which is the 1.6x format equivalent of 28mm on full-frame (18 x 1.6 = 28 approx) and again at 22mm which is the 35mm equivalent focal length on full-frame (22 x 1.6 = 35 approx).

5) Ignore the LCD panel on the flash which reports confusing activity, but look at and listen to the flash head for movement.

6) Switch lens to MF, turn on flash, turn on camera and prime it with half-press on shutter release.

7) Rotate zoom ring and note actions at around 18mm and 22mm positions. Nothing happens.

8) Ensure camera is primed as it shuts down after 5 secs. Repeat until technician is convinced.

9) Now do the same using a later model 580EX, with a serial number higher than 200000.

10) The flash head will zoom around 18mm and again at approx 22mm. Correct function.

I think this is as simple and conclusive as it gets. It avoids going in to the whys, ifs and buts - it just proves that there is a fault, for which Canon has a fix with new parts. The hardest bit is getting to speak to somebody qualified with the right components to hand.

Good luck,

Richard.

great..
that is a little better explanation than I had written in MY letter..
to the service center

I will modify my letter for YOUR clarity

THANKS

and thanks DOUG for your detail work

n/t

Guitarman,

I think my letter to the Persident & CEO will probably be forwarded to the appropriate department/division of Canon that deals with cameras. I don't know the address of this department but will probably hear from them when they get my letter. Perhaps it would be best to copy your letter to them and not the President. If I do get a communication, I will post any pertinent information.

Good luck,

Harold Ables

Doug Kerr said:

We are all waiting to see how John Pane's machine works when it
comes back from Canon. (We hope that they didn't just find some
other fault to fiX but not the X vs Y problem!)

Click to expand...

Well, bad news here. My unit arrived back from Canon today and it behaves exactly as before. They enclosed a page indicating what they did but it is so ambiguous I cannot tell if they replaced any parts or just "checked" it.

This is both disappointing and frustrating.

John

well..
I spoke to Tech Support

after THEM trying to start an argument..me staying cool..
..I mean... they were in the 'PRE-denial' mode as we started the test..
...and stated so...
-----------
they actually displayed/reported to me..
THEIR 580 unit (Y) with a 17-85 lens (cf11=0)

zooming at 18, 22, 30, 42, 50 and 65mm...
and MINE zooming at 30, 50 and 70mm...
------------

then I asked if they would email me a summary of this test..

• to send to the repair center in Irvine to help them SEE the problem -

[ in retrospect... a mistake to mention this ]

her: "I can't use my personal email to do that"
me: "doesn't canon have a computer to do company business..?"

and it began..like that..

------
finally a 'supervisor' got on the line and said he would verify her test and
send me an email confirming that..
and ...MUCH later [ after some 'meetings'? ] ... sent me an email:

".... researched your concern about the Speedlite 580EX Flash to confirm if a repair is needed. The lowest number or flash zoom focal range that will display on the Speedlite 580EX is 24mm by design, without the flip-out wide panel (14mm fixed). ..."

giberish...RE: my 17-85 test
this is the road to stonewalling...for sure..

they invited me to speak to a senior tech...
which I will do...

I will go to the local store and test the 17-85 on THEIR 580 flash to be sure of my approach then set up an appointment

I can see....they WILL change the argument to anything out of the 580ex book....and just repeat it...

quite frustrating

TOM

I received mne back today from Canon NJ (SN 147xxx) and it appears to be fixed (demonstrates behavior Y). The Service Details indicates replacement of two PCB's (A and D).

I wish to thank all of you who commented on this, and especially Doug, for all of your work and comments. They not only alerted me to the problem, but allowed me to properly test my unit and write a sufficient description of the problem with my flash so that it was fixed.

--Bob

My two Behaviour X units have been with Canon for over a week now. I delivered them personally, demonstrated both correct and incorrect behaviour, and am confident of a proper fix. The technician seemed to be up to speed with what I was saying, following my earlier prompting and his research. (Both units had previously been returned to Canon, but tested as functioning correctly, so this is my second attempt.)

Apparently, there has been a Canon circular in recent months about the 580EX but it referred to "functional enhancements" and not fault correction.

I am expecting reach a conclusion next week and will of course report back from the UK.

Regards,

Richard.