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uh oh . . . "fixed" 707 has nightframed BFS

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While it is quite disappointing, I do appreciate Sony's rapid response. What was particularly frustrating was that I was originally uncertain about whether or not to even send the camera in for the adjustment in the first place since I had, at worst, marginal BFS.

"Every improvement makes things worse."

steve
Ulysses said:
steve said:
Here's a contact sheet of the post-"fixed" NightFraming shots
(w/BFS) and non-NightFraming flash shots.

Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid27/pd0bcb5eff46a2a9668fcc4a03a31dc94/fe21bee3.jpg.orig.jpg
Click to expand...
Glad that they are sending that thing back into the shop.

That's a LOT worse than any "variation" that I was talking about.
What I get is completely within the range of what might be
acceptable (and still better than the F505V performance in terms of
variability, I might add). Matter of fact, if I weren't looking for
it in my own samples of 64 consecutive shots, I probably wouldn't
really notice it in any individual shot.

You've got a completely different animal, however. Maybe this was
simply due to inadequate testing after it was all done.

Please update us in a few days so that we know how this went for you.
Click to expand...
 
My vote, and I admit I am somewhat insensitive to some of these subtleties, is that it is flash exposure variation, not BFS, and no way I would think that this is a problem if it wasn't being brought up on the forum.

Greg
Ulysses said:
Willyee said:
BTW, can you post your sequence of night framing mode shots so we
can see how subtle your BFS is? I know it is work, but I will do
the same if I had my camera back and saw some symptoms still.
Click to expand...
Would I call this BFS? Or is it differences in different flash
metering? I haven't decided yet. For example, you have the two most
extremes in this series, for example, in going from #845 to #846.



Now, take a look at a similar series from the F505V. A similar sort
of thing happens. Note** that since the camera does NOT have the
same evaluative flash metering, it tends to overexpose, which wipes
out some of the diffences in THIS series. However, some shots are
warmer and some are cooler (I may try this again at a further
distance so as not to over-expose). This is fairly normal for minor
differences to creep in. And were we not taking 100 shots of the
same thing, we might not notice this. I agree that we should
definitely keep an eye on it. But let's not raise a 5-bell fire
alarm just yet.

Click to expand...
 
Gregory Alter said:
My vote, and I admit I am somewhat insensitive to some of these
subtleties, is that it is flash exposure variation, not BFS, and no
way I would think that this is a problem if it wasn't being brought
up on the forum.
Click to expand...
Maybe... maybe not.

We need to evaluate this more closely.

While I don't have quite the same feverish intensity about it that some might , I do believe that their concern is valid.

Let's test our returned cameras as thoroughly as we can. If I've made any mistake myself, it's been because I've been glad just to get the camera BACK! :)

If there is an ongoing problem, we need to document it with Sony. Best recommendation.
 
Thanks for the test pictures Ulysses! Yeah I don't think there are any BFS pics in there. The closest one is pic #846 which looks to have the slightest amount of blueish white cast, but only when compared side by side to the other more redish pics in the sequence.

Looks normal and okay to me. But the pics are too small for critial analysis on my screen. But I can still tell that they are not so drastically blue casted, as a matter of fact I's say none.

Thank You for the samples work.!
:-)

Willyee.
Ulysses said:
Willyee said:
BTW, can you post your sequence of night framing mode shots so we
can see how subtle your BFS is? I know it is work, but I will do
the same if I had my camera back and saw some symptoms still.
Click to expand...
Would I call this BFS? Or is it differences in different flash
metering? I haven't decided yet. For example, you have the two most
extremes in this series, for example, in going from #845 to #846.



Now, take a look at a similar series from the F505V. A similar sort
of thing happens. Note** that since the camera does NOT have the
same evaluative flash metering, it tends to overexpose, which wipes
out some of the diffences in THIS series. However, some shots are
warmer and some are cooler (I may try this again at a further
distance so as not to over-expose). This is fairly normal for minor
differences to creep in. And were we not taking 100 shots of the
same thing, we might not notice this. I agree that we should
definitely keep an eye on it. But let's not raise a 5-bell fire
alarm just yet.

Click to expand...
 
Willyee said:
Looks normal and okay to me. But the pics are too small for
critial analysis on my screen. But I can still tell that they are
not so drastically blue casted, as a matter of fact I's say none.
Click to expand...
They were also shot at 640x480. So this was only a Relative Color Analysis, not really good for much else.

Not a problem. Happy to help. And sorry if I've seemed to have been a bit strong. It was all partly done with humor and a bit of a brotherly chuckle in mind.

If there IS an ongoing problem, we're going to need to let Sony know about our cameras' behavior.

Now, having said that, we've got to be careful that we don't start crying "Wolf!!" either. We need to choose our battles where this sort of stuff is concerned. Some traits may not be important to us on a day-to-day set of shooting. And as we've discussed, other variations may not be relevant unless compared with 100 other shots.

I also like to think about what our intended usage is going to be. Will we be adjusting some of our shots for the web, for printing, etc.? If so, then we're probably tweaking them slightly anyway. The sort of variations I'm seeing thus far seem to fall within the norm (so far).

Interestingly, I do find that NightFraming shots are cooler than ordinary daytime Auto shots. But that's a whole 'nother issue, and may not be relevant for our purposes here.
 
Willyee said:
Looks normal and okay to me. But the pics are too small for
critial analysis on my screen. But I can still tell that they are
not so drastically blue casted, as a matter of fact I's say none.
Click to expand...
They were also shot at 640x480. So this was only a Relative Color Analysis, not really good for much else.

Not a problem. Happy to help. And sorry if I've seemed to have been a bit strong. It was all partly done with humor and a bit of a brotherly chuckle in mind.

If there IS an ongoing problem, we're going to need to let Sony know about our cameras' behavior.

Now, having said that, we've got to be careful that we don't start crying "Wolf!!" either. We need to choose our battles where this sort of stuff is concerned. Some traits may not be important to us on a day-to-day set of shooting. And as we've discussed, other variations may not be relevant unless compared with 100 other shots.

I also like to think about what our intended usage is going to be. Will we be adjusting some of our shots for the web, for printing, etc.? If so, then we're probably tweaking them slightly anyway. The sort of variations I'm seeing thus far seem to fall within the norm (so far).

Interestingly, I do find that NightFraming shots are cooler than ordinary daytime Auto shots. But that's a whole 'nother issue, and may not be relevant for our purposes here.
 
Day 2: Called Sony to arrange pickup for second fix then began to think BFS NightFraming problem went away. Did several tests throughout the day. Early tests showed slight color shift, but nothing as severe as previous day. Then, later on, problem recurred in full force.

Here's a contact sheet of sample pix throughout day (filename is time shot was taken so you can see sequence; each pair, taken seconds apart, is one w/NightFraming and one without):



Individual shots can be viewed at:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292259275

I guess it wasn't my imagination after all.

Steve
steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve
Click to expand...
 
I have a post-BFS unit (no black or blue dot), ser #13399xx. delivered 11/9 from Dell. I just tood a slew of nightframing shots with no evidence of the problem I see in posted examples.

This thread
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&page=11&message=1743130

indicates there was possibly a chip replacement for some cameras sent in for BFS correction, in addition to firmware change (I can only assume that this chip replacement is done only if the firmware corrections doesn't do the job), an I have to wonder whether that chip was installed during production in the later cameras. I have absolutely nothing to go on here except that my camera has none of these problems and, in addition, my colors do not so far seem to be oversaturated to any significant degree. In that regard, though, I've had no bright shooting days, only overcast. It may be valuable to hear from more owners of later units regarding all of this.
Regards,
jaxon
Willyee said:
Willyee
steve said:
Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.



steve
steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi Steve,

Thank you for discovering this problem. I got my DA back after the BFS fix this Monday, and after trying to shoot a few pictures with nightframing, I am getting similar results are yours- blue casts on all the images. I'm going to call Sony tomorrow to schedule for another pick up.

Ryu
steve said:
FedEx picked her up about 2 minutes ago . . . on its way to
Bristol. If they stick to the same rapid schedule, I expect to get
it back next Tuesday.

steve
Click to expand...
 
Ryu said:
Hi Steve,

Thank you for discovering this problem. I got my DA back after the
BFS fix this Monday, and after trying to shoot a few pictures with
nightframing, I am getting similar results are yours- blue casts on
all the images. I'm going to call Sony tomorrow to schedule for
another pick up.
Click to expand...
Just make sure that what you are seeing is just like in Steve's samples: Blue cast ALL OVER, and not simply a blue tint in certain areas of the image because they were underexposed. The latter would not be affected at all by the fix.

Wouldn't want you to miss out on using your camera needlessly.
 
Thank you for the advice Ulysses. I just took more samples shots, and noticed that the blue cast does not always exist when taking photos in night framing mode. It did appear in the first 10 - 15 photos I took, then suddenly it disappears, and then it reappears on some of the photos. I will try to upload some of the images early tomorrow (I mean, later today @@').
Ulysses said:
Ryu said:
Hi Steve,

Thank you for discovering this problem. I got my DA back after the
BFS fix this Monday, and after trying to shoot a few pictures with
nightframing, I am getting similar results are yours- blue casts on
all the images. I'm going to call Sony tomorrow to schedule for
another pick up.
Click to expand...
Just make sure that what you are seeing is just like in Steve's
samples: Blue cast ALL OVER, and not simply a blue tint in certain
areas of the image because they were underexposed. The latter would
not be affected at all by the fix.

Wouldn't want you to miss out on using your camera needlessly.
Click to expand...
 
Some of the sample photos I took can be viewed at
http://www.pbase.com/ryu/f707_night_frame_comparison

I welcome everyone's comments. If this indeed is still a BFS problem in Nightframing mode, I will have to send the camera back to Sony again =( Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Ryu said:
Ulysses said:
Ryu said:
Hi Steve,

Thank you for discovering this problem. I got my DA back after the
BFS fix this Monday, and after trying to shoot a few pictures with
nightframing, I am getting similar results are yours- blue casts on
all the images. I'm going to call Sony tomorrow to schedule for
another pick up.
Click to expand...
Just make sure that what you are seeing is just like in Steve's
samples: Blue cast ALL OVER, and not simply a blue tint in certain
areas of the image because they were underexposed. The latter would
not be affected at all by the fix.

Wouldn't want you to miss out on using your camera needlessly.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Why should there be any color shift using NightFraming (which is supposed to simply assist in composing/focusing, not exposure) compared to the same shot without NightFraming?

So, this might still require some some of adjustment or fix, even if it's not BFS.

Steve
Ulysses said:
Just make sure that what you are seeing is just like in Steve's
samples: Blue cast ALL OVER, and not simply a blue tint in certain
areas of the image because they were underexposed. The latter would
not be affected at all by the fix.

Wouldn't want you to miss out on using your camera needlessly.
Click to expand...
 
steve said:
Why should there be any color shift using NightFraming (which is
supposed to simply assist in composing/focusing, not exposure)
compared to the same shot without NightFraming?

So, this might still require some some of adjustment or fix, even
if it's not BFS.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know.

However, I do know this: When I changed the method for my test, the camera responded differently.

For example, when I did the experiment in LOW lighting, regular Auto mode was warmer than when NF mode.

However, when I turned all the lights completely OFF and did the same experiment, all of the shots from regular and from NF modes looked identical.

So, at least in my camera, this may be a consistent response of each mode to the ambient lighting conditions.

Using the right mode for the right conditions is going to give me consistent results. And that's what I'm more concerned here. If I needed NF mode, and my camera was swinging its cast from one extreme to another, then I'd be concerned. That unpredictability would be a marker for real BFS. But if my images are consistent and stable during any particular mode, then I know that this is just the camera's response to available conditions.

If I remember your shots correctly, you may have a real problem still. Your returned camera will reveal this.

But Ryu's camera, I believe may be just fine.
 
Ryu said:
Some of the sample photos I took can be viewed at
http://www.pbase.com/ryu/f707_night_frame_comparison

I welcome everyone's comments. If this indeed is still a BFS
problem in Nightframing mode, I will have to send the camera back
to Sony again =( Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Hate to send you back with homework. But what you need to do is to shoot a string of several consecutive shots of the same subject in Auto. Then switch to NF mode immediately, and then shoot another long string of shots.

Post that up for us.

If you want to go one step further, shoot two sets of each mode: one with lights on, and one with lights off.
 
Steve, I was meaning to ask you, could you tell us which pics were in Night Framing mode and which were not out if these sequence of pics you showed us? Is pic 39 normal flash or NF flash?

TIA.

Willyee.
steve said:
Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.



steve
steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Pic 39 was without NightFraming. I know I should have identified these, but to me is was rather apparent that all blue cast shots were with NF and the others were not.

Steve
Willyee said:
TIA.

Willyee.
steve said:
Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.



steve
steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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