D200 Group Shot...

"somebody" is me... Albert.

I did what I thought looked good in SilkyPix.... trying to get the same look as the Kodak.

I have the link handy to email to you if you would like to take a crack at it

Maybe your expertise can show us all something different.

Albert

APY_Jr said:

"somebody" is me... Albert.

I did what I thought looked good in SilkyPix.... trying to get the
same look as the Kodak.

I have the link handy to email to you if you would like to take a
crack at it

Maybe your expertise can show us all something different.

Click to expand...

Hi Albert,

my comment wasn't meant arrogant and I could have 'somebody' called Albert - but please take in account that I have to translate from German to English for writing here and it wasn't meant so harsh as you received it. Germans have probably a tendency to express themself more direct than in other parts of the world.

I don't know if I have more experience like you in processing RAWs but if the file is good to start with I can give it a try ... I must have to much time at hand right now ... (not!)

The file indeed looked really bad IMO and I really like the picture quality from the D200 - so I was surprised to see this.

Please, email me and I'll send you a link to the file

Sorry if my reply was curt.

Albert

APY_Jr said:

I'm going to have to experiment with different converters again
with these files. My initial reaction was I liked SilkyPix... but
now I'm not so sure.

Click to expand...

If there is a way, then I'm sure you'll find it Albert. I do hope so, but somehow I don't think that camera is ever going to do full justice to your talents.

Looking at that group shot again makes me chuckle too, though. You certainly know how to charm the ladies. Great expressions! It's almost as if your trousers had suddenly fallen down, such is the mixture of spontaneous surprise and delight recorded on their faces! LOL Great stuff. ;-)

--
Kind regards,
Nigel

A bad workman always blames his tools. But in the light of all that I have written above, I am definitely blaming my keyboard!

I would like to thank Nirto for "stepping up to the plate" dedicating his time and efforts to take a look at and process this file for us all to take a look at.

Now we're talking... contributions like Nirto's are what forums are all about in my opinion... sharing techniques and methods for all of us to better our craft/hobby/ business.

His rendition are not the colors I went for.. but it his interpretation and that's what is important. The file does not have the sharpening artifacts any longer... but looks softer now in my opinion... not the definition of the Kodak files (nor should it)

I still contend that there is some "mirror slap" going on with this camera and to extract the best possible exposure MUp needs to be used. I'll explore this further.

Anyone else care to examine and critique the original send me an email and I'll hook you up with the NEF.

Thanks Nirto for taking the time to share with us!

Albert

Nirto's file...

Thanks for your positive comments first of all.

I don't feel it's my best shot by any means but simply a D200 shot to show comparisons... for the interests of this forum.

The whole reason I bought the Kodak was to improve detail in my group shots. Chasing after my film results I used to get with the Mamiya RB-67.

I'm happy with the resolution results it's given me... but as we all know it's packaged with it's own set of challenges.

thanks again,

Albert

With Raw Magick Lite.

Albert

Thank you for the kind words in your posting before ...

I think your last conversion is not as sharp as mine. Your first one had had some problems which made it look a bit like the 'painterly look' we all know so well. In your last conversion the reds are stil clipped IMO but it looks much more 'natural' to my eyes. Of course we loose some color space when we convert everything to sRGB. We forgot to tell each other what monitors we use to watch all these conversions and I think that it is important. I use for editing the EIZO CG210 and my general browsing and second monitor for photo editing is the EIZO SW2410S. The CG210 is calibrated to 6500K and 2.2 Gamma.

Have you seen the color artifacts on the I got with the glittering parts of their dresses? Maybe I try Phase One's Capture One to see how it deals with this?
I surely have learned something here ... thanks!

By Georpge, I think we have it, Albert. Kicks A* . RML

I'm downloading that file now and I want to give it a go.

I'll let you know.

Paul

Thanks again for trying this out

I'm using a Samsung 213T calibrated with Monaco EZ color with the X-rite DTP94 unit.

Colorspace was the adobe1998 in RML and I've been using Colormatch in CS2.

I agree.. your version is sharper. I tried Shelby's suggestion of using FocusMagic after conversion of Motion Blur at 1 and 180.. followed up with Focus Magic again for normal blur at 1 50%.

Then I tried Paul's suggestion of Dave's RGB blur about 150 at .4 and 0.

I got a little gun shy with the sharpening this time

Albert

I just took the color artifacts out with the paint brush set to color mode on the uniforms. From memory... the uniforms actually displayed those "rainbow" colors... but digital just enhanced it further. I didn't like them so I took them out.

Albert

Looking forward to your results. Especially intersted in what you think of the initial NEF exposure.

Albert

APY_Jr said:

Thanks again for trying this out

I'm using a Samsung 213T calibrated with Monaco EZ color with the
X-rite DTP94 unit.

Colorspace was the adobe1998 in RML and I've been using Colormatch
in CS2.

I agree.. your version is sharper. I tried Shelby's suggestion of
using FocusMagic after conversion of Motion Blur at 1 and 180..
followed up with Focus Magic again for normal blur at 1 50%.

Then I tried Paul's suggestion of Dave's RGB blur about 150 at .4
and 0.

I got a little gun shy with the sharpening this time

Click to expand...

Hey Albert,

I just processed the file in RML and I got the same look as you did. You don't have to return the camera, but I'm not running out and getting one. I've seen the softness of the AA filter before, so I wasn't too surprised, but I did see some CA and I was surprised about that.

You gotta practice with those actions, because they are the perfect solution for sharpening these files.

Paul

APY_Jr said:

Albert

Click to expand...

APY_Jr said:

Looking forward to your results. Especially intersted in what you
think of the initial NEF exposure.

Albert

Click to expand...

Hey Albert,

I did a real quickie just to look to see if the file was good. I'll have to work on it, but I think you nailed anyway. As for the exposure, you're definitely under by a 1/2 stop maybe 2/3. I had to bump up the EV to get the exposure right. I found sharpening a little difficult to judge, but I like it a little soft looking instead of the halo look.

Glad I could be of help.

Paul

I like this better than your first version or Nirto's version.

Still, if you and Jono of all people aren't getting any better results from the D200 than what I've seen, I'm not the least bit tempted by it. Which is a very good thing, since I haven't got any money.

APY_Jr said:

Thanks for your positive comments first of all.
I don't feel it's my best shot by any means but simply a D200 shot
to show comparisons... for the interests of this forum.

The whole reason I bought the Kodak was to improve detail in my
group shots. Chasing after my film results I used to get with the
Mamiya RB-67.

I'm happy with the resolution results it's given me... but as we
all know it's packaged with it's own set of challenges.

thanks again,

Click to expand...

You're welcome, Albert. None less than you merit.

The last conversion you did in RML is much more like the overall look I was expecting, and far superior in many ways to Nirto's version, although I don't know which converter he used. RML has definitely come to the rescue here, and recovered so many of the lost highlights apart from other things. It has produce the best rendition yet, IMO, and by a mile. Although I think it could still do with a smidgen more sharpening. Did you use RML Sharpening in Phase 2? I wonder if the addition of just some local contrast would be all that's needed here? Also, I notice the rainbow-effect glitter from some of the girls tunics (black) has gone completely. I realise you stated later on that you don't like the look, even though it was authentic, but did RML treat it as noise or moiree, or did you 'wield the axe' later in Photoshop?

Many things have been learned here, thank you for this. More than ever before I must now always consider the RAW processing software whenever critiquing files. The combination of hardware and software is clearly inextricably linked. ;-)

--
Kind regards,
Nigel

A bad workman always blames his tools. But in the light of all that I have written above, I am definitely blaming my keyboard!

Hi Albert,

Here's the comparison that I mentioned to you. I've tried to isolate the effect of shutter slap ( or other motion) by not doing any adjustment to the shot except to apply a motion correction using focus magic. I first looked at it at 800 % to see if I could determine a direction of pixel smearing. To do this its helpful to have something that has a hard boundary. I used the earings of the girl in the upper right hand side of the picture. I have cropped around her in a before and after picture which I've posted at

http://www.pbase.com/shelby_frisch/image/57329218

I found what I think is a slight improvement in sharpness using a 1 pixel shift at about 180 degrees using focus magic. The problem I find with this program is the before and after windows don't show enough magnification, at least for me, or else I don't know how to change it. What I had to do was apply the correction to the my larger image outside of focus magic which I had set at about 800 percent and toggle it back and forth with the history menu in PS to view the change.

I think to pin down the apparent blurring, one would need to have take several pictures of hard targets such as lines oriented in a vertical and horizontal direction with the camera on a really solid tripod. Then repeat the process with a mirror pre-release to see if it there is much difference.

Best regards,
Shelby

Warren Sarle said:

I like this better than your first version or Nirto's version.

Still, if you and Jono of all people aren't getting any better
results from the D200 than what I've seen, I'm not the least bit
tempted by it. Which is a very good thing, since I haven't got any
money.

Click to expand...

I haven't made particular comparisons between D200, D2x and SLR/n but think you can achieve similar results in sharpness with all cameras. The painterly look takes away some sharpness IMO like the AA filter on the other cameras does.

I had a look at the older group shots of Albert with his 14nx. Do you think these shots are sharper than the D200 shot? look at the hair for example.
Of course at 100% you should compare similar 'magnifications' of the subjects.
http://www.pbase.com/apy_jr/image/45241549/original
http://www.pbase.com/apy_jr/image/45251793/original

I didn't mean shutter slap
Shelby

Nirto Karsten Fischer said:

I haven't made particular comparisons between D200, D2x and SLR/n
but think you can achieve similar results in sharpness with all
cameras. The painterly look takes away some sharpness IMO like the
AA filter on the other cameras does.

Click to expand...

The 'painterly look' produced from RAW files is a result of (inadequate) software, not the camera's hardware. Likewise, in-camera produced Jpegs.

Nirto Karsten Fischer said:

I had a look at the older group shots of Albert with his 14nx. Do
you think these shots are sharper than the D200 shot? look at the
hair for example.
Of course at 100% you should compare similar 'magnifications' of
the subjects.
http://www.pbase.com/apy_jr/image/45241549/original
http://www.pbase.com/apy_jr/image/45251793/original

Click to expand...

There is a distinction between sharpness and definiion. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor are they equivalent.
--
Kind regards,
Nigel

A bad workman always blames his tools. But in the light of all that I have written above, I am definitely blaming my keyboard!