uh oh . . . "fixed" 707 has nightframed BFS

steve61372 · Nov 13, 2001

Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed pronounced BFS.

Steve

Matthew Nelson · Nov 13, 2001

I swear this message board is going to give me an ulcer!

My 707 is coming back tomorrow from Bristol. Now I'm going to check this as well.

Matt

steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve

Dennis22293 · Nov 13, 2001

Matthew Nelson said:
I swear this message board is going to give me an ulcer!

My 707 is coming back tomorrow from Bristol. Now I'm going to
check this as well.

Matt

And mine is going in tomorrow. SO how do you think I feel??

Dennis

Ulysses · Nov 13, 2001

steve said:
But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

I've tried mine after reading your post. I see some of the same very slight variation every now and then in my shots. But it's nowhere near what I'd call BFS, pronounced or otherwise. If I look at the range of shots, pull out the hottest and the coolest shots, you can see some difference in them. But as I said, it wouldn't qualify for a fix. At least not in my camera.

Engelmacher · Nov 13, 2001

Ulysses said:
steve said:

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Click to expand...

I Just got mine back today (Sony put the wrong address on the package and took three days and five phone calls to cough up a tracking number, so it's been sitting at the FedEx station for five bloody days) and can confirm the same problem. Before I had only minor BFS problems when shooting normally and none whatsoever in Nightframing mode. With the fix, my normal shots come out just fine, but every single shot I take in Nightframing mode is quite horribly, horribly blue. Worse than what I was seeing before.

I've also noticed a little mechanical clicking noise after each shot is taken that never happened before. Doesn't sound like a bad/scary noise by any stretch of the imagination, it's just new and therefore somewhat disconcerting. Looks like I'll be spending some more time on the phone with their tech support goons tomorrow.

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

Engelmacher said:
With the fix, my normal shots come out just
fine, but every single shot I take in Nightframing mode is quite
horribly, horribly blue. Worse than what I was seeing before.

Please post a sample of what you're seeing. If you can demonstrate the difference between a good and a bad shot, it would be helpful.

steve61372 · Nov 14, 2001

Here's a contact sheet of the post-"fixed" NightFraming shots (w/BFS) and non-NightFraming flash shots.

Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.

steve

steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

steve said:
Here's a contact sheet of the post-"fixed" NightFraming shots
(w/BFS) and non-NightFraming flash shots.

Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid27/pd0bcb5eff46a2a9668fcc4a03a31dc94/fe21bee3.jpg.orig.jpg

Glad that they are sending that thing back into the shop.

That's a LOT worse than any "variation" that I was talking about. What I get is completely within the range of what might be acceptable (and still better than the F505V performance in terms of variability, I might add). Matter of fact, if I weren't looking for it in my own samples of 64 consecutive shots, I probably wouldn't really notice it in any individual shot.

You've got a completely different animal, however. Maybe this was simply due to inadequate testing after it was all done.

Please update us in a few days so that we know how this went for you.

Don Schultz43010 · Nov 14, 2001

Hi Engelmacher:

I think you will find that the clicking noise was indeed there before you sent the camera in for repair, you just weren't looking for things to be wrong with the camera. See the (notes) on page 31 of the manual.
Don.

Engelmacher said:
Ulysses said:

steve said:

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I Just got mine back today (Sony put the wrong address on the
package and took three days and five phone calls to cough up a
tracking number, so it's been sitting at the FedEx station for five
bloody days) and can confirm the same problem. Before I had only
minor BFS problems when shooting normally and none whatsoever in
Nightframing mode. With the fix, my normal shots come out just
fine, but every single shot I take in Nightframing mode is quite
horribly, horribly blue. Worse than what I was seeing before.

I've also noticed a little mechanical clicking noise after each
shot is taken that never happened before. Doesn't sound like a
bad/scary noise by any stretch of the imagination, it's just new
and therefore somewhat disconcerting. Looks like I'll be spending
some more time on the phone with their tech support goons tomorrow.

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

Don Schultz said:
Hi Engelmacher:
I think you will find that the clicking noise was indeed there
before you sent the camera in for repair, you just weren't looking
for things to be wrong with the camera. See the (notes) on page 31
of the manual.

Agreed (let's not start "creating" problems, as we shouldjust make allowance for our improved powers of observation as we get to know our camera).

The clicking sound is the sound of the IR filter moving back and forth as you use and focus the camera in NF mode.

Here is what Phil's F707 review says on page 5:
----------------------------------------------------------------

NightFraming

NightFraming can only be used in Auto exposure mode, it allows you to use the light sensitive NightShot mode to frame the subject before taking the final shot in normal mode (flash exposure). Exposure sequence:

Switch to NightFraming, a small click is heard as the IR filter is removed from the CCD, IR lights on the front of the lens come on and screen turns 'NightShot Green'.
Use this 'NightShot' view to frame the subject.

Half-press shutter release and IR filter is replaced screen returns to full colour, (if enabled) Hologram AF (laser focus) will lock focus on subject, IR filter is again removed and screen returns to 'NightShot' view, flash pops up if not already up .

Fully depress shutter release, IR filter is replaced, flash fires and full colour image is taken.
Screen returns to 'NightShot' type view.

Willyee · Nov 14, 2001

This is real BAD news. Let's hear from all you other people who have your post BFS Fixed cameras in hand. Can you confirm if this is an isolated case or is it inherent in all of the BFS fixed cameras? How about those who got the new ones with "Black dot" on the box, do you have this problem?
GeeeeeeeeezzzZZZZ! ~~!@ Sony is driving me nuts!~~

Willyee

steve said:
Individual pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292260957

I've called Sony to arrange for FedEx to pick up again tomorrow.

steve

steve said:

Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve

Click to expand...

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

Willyee said:
This is real BAD news. Let's hear from all you other people who
have your post BFS Fixed cameras in hand. Can you confirm if this
is an isolated case or is it inherent in all of the BFS fixed
cameras? How about those who got the new ones with "Black dot" on
the box, do you have this problem?
GeeeeeeeeezzzZZZZ! ~~!@ Sony is driving me nuts!~~

Willyee, I would advise you not to get yourself worked up over this (although I knew this was going to happen).

Downshift your emotions for a second and think about it:

Let's suppose that the number of cameras being sent into Sony by existing consumers numbers in the hundreds (and remember, the number of cameras with the problem is very likely in the several thousands).

As we've seen in the comments by "Dark_Angel", the firmware fix is apparently implemented MANUALLY by a special set of trained technicians, not the average Sony assembler or factory worker. Even with this specialized training, there are a couple of areas that could present problems:

1) human error. People make mistakes with shipping packages, looking up database information, and Yes, even when uploading firmware.

2) some cameras may, I repeat MAY, need a new board/CPU. This is in the rarest of cases, from reports so far.

In either event, the solution is still open to the affected user, just as we see in Steve's case: SEND IT BACK IN. Get it fixed, and then continue to enjoy snapping happily.

Now, it may be that you'll find that all of this is not conducive to your mental health, and you may need to find another camera or another hobby altogether. Or you may find that all of this builds patience and character, leading to improved photography. Either way, what will probably serve you best is to allow this to play itself out and see how your individual case turns out. What happened to Steve is definitely not what has happened to the majority of reported cases, not by a long shot.

You seem to be turning yourself inside out from the more isolated cases than by the majority successful ones. You can't do that to yourself or to the forum and still enjoy all of this.

You follow what I'm saying?

Willyee · Nov 14, 2001

Yes Ulysses, I follow what you are saying! But I am afflicted with "worry wart" genes! :-( and cannot stop it so easily! I of course am always hoping in the back of my mind as I fire off these concerns in wrtiing, that all will turn out well for my F707 fix.

But nevertheless, I need to get to the bottom of this and want to hear from all BFS fixed camera owners. Please test your night framing mode and report to the forum what you case is. Hopefully like I said before, Steve's is a rare and isolated case... of technician programing error or whatever.

Willyee.

Ulysses said:
Willyee said:

This is real BAD news. Let's hear from all you other people who
have your post BFS Fixed cameras in hand. Can you confirm if this
is an isolated case or is it inherent in all of the BFS fixed
cameras? How about those who got the new ones with "Black dot" on
the box, do you have this problem?
GeeeeeeeeezzzZZZZ! ~~!@ Sony is driving me nuts!~~

Click to expand...

Willyee, I would advise you not to get yourself worked up over this
(although I knew this was going to happen).

Downshift your emotions for a second and think about it:

Let's suppose that the number of cameras being sent into Sony by
existing consumers numbers in the hundreds (and remember, the
number of cameras with the problem is very likely in the several
thousands).

As we've seen in the comments by "Dark_Angel", the firmware fix is
apparently implemented MANUALLY by a special set of trained
technicians, not the average Sony assembler or factory worker. Even
with this specialized training, there are a couple of areas that
could present problems:
1) human error. People make mistakes with shipping packages,
looking up database information, and Yes, even when uploading
firmware.
2) some cameras may, I repeat MAY, need a new board/CPU. This is in
the rarest of cases, from reports so far.

In either event, the solution is still open to the affected user,
just as we see in Steve's case: SEND IT BACK IN. Get it fixed, and
then continue to enjoy snapping happily.

Now, it may be that you'll find that all of this is not conducive
to your mental health, and you may need to find another camera or
another hobby altogether. Or you may find that all of this builds
patience and character, leading to improved photography. Either
way, what will probably serve you best is to allow this to play
itself out and see how your individual case turns out. What
happened to Steve is definitely not what has happened to the
majority of reported cases, not by a long shot.

You seem to be turning yourself inside out from the more isolated
cases than by the majority successful ones. You can't do that to
yourself or to the forum and still enjoy all of this.

You follow what I'm saying?

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

Willyee said:
Please test your night framing mode and report to the forum what you case is.

Already did that:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&page=1&message=1761478

You only read the problem posts.

Willyee · Nov 14, 2001

No I do read the good ones also Ulysses. I did read you post, but it would also be better to hear from all the others also. Not that I don't take your word for it. From a more scientific approach, it is always better to sample more of the population to get a better picture of the situation. I am sure you will agree with that. I still of course hope that my F707 comes back fixed perfectly and I can stop worrying about spending so much on the camera to have to deal with the hassle of repairs already. I view both the good sides and the bad sides of things and do try to at least remedy the bad things if at all possible. Finding out for sure if this is a problem is the first step (again) of identifying a problem to make Sony aware of it. Ignoring it out of my mind, to try and feel better, does not work for me. It is those worry-wart genes I guess!

Worst case is I will have to swallow another one from Sony and I am getting to the point of asking myself "How many times am I going to allow Sony to sell me products with defects and just let them get away with it?" I don't expect a big giant like Sony to always have defects in their products but I know they do just like the other company's... however as long as they fix it, it is not too bad.

And I do give them credit for reacting so fast to our original F707 BFS complaints... but it is only for their own good to do so.

BTW, can you post your sequence of night framing mode shots so we can see how subtle your BFS is? I know it is work, but I will do the same if I had my camera back and saw some symptoms still.

TIA.

Willyee.

Ulysses said:
Willyee said:

Please test your night framing mode and report to the forum what you case is.

Click to expand...

Already did that:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&page=1&message=1761478

You only read the problem posts.

bryce · Nov 14, 2001

Ulysses - you are the ultimate apologist! I swear, if the F707 disintegrated in ones fingers spewing flesh eating acid that consumed two fingers on each hand, you'd tell folks to calm down, and THANK Sony for not making a camera that consumed three fingers on each hand. And what did you really use those other two fingers for anyway?

That being said - its a great camera, its got some bugs, and thankfully, Sony is acting responsibly in fixing the bugs. I have had experiences with other companies that simply deny a defect. So kudos to Sony for stepping up to plate, addressing the problem, and eating the cost of two way shipping. Nothing more could be reasonably expected of a company.

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

No problem. I have two sets here, one from the DA and one from the King.

Willyee said:
BTW, can you post your sequence of night framing mode shots so we
can see how subtle your BFS is? I know it is work, but I will do
the same if I had my camera back and saw some symptoms still.

Would I call this BFS? Or is it differences in different flash metering? I haven't decided yet. For example, you have the two most extremes in this series, for example, in going from #845 to #846.

Now, take a look at a similar series from the F505V. A similar sort of thing happens. Note** that since the camera does NOT have the same evaluative flash metering, it tends to overexpose, which wipes out some of the diffences in THIS series. However, some shots are warmer and some are cooler (I may try this again at a further distance so as not to over-expose). This is fairly normal for minor differences to creep in. And were we not taking 100 shots of the same thing, we might not notice this. I agree that we should definitely keep an eye on it. But let's not raise a 5-bell fire alarm just yet.

David Burris · Nov 14, 2001

steve said:
Got my "fixed" 707 back from Bristol today and just noticed a big
problem. Before sending it in, I rare, marginal BFS. I have just
discovered that now I get very distrinctive BFS on every shot I
take using nightframing.

This is very discouraging and I suspect I will have to send it back
for another adjustment or try to exchange it (bought it at Best
Buy).

But first, I'd appreciate knowing if anyone else has tried using
their "fixed" 707 with nightframing and whether they've noticed
pronounced BFS.

Steve

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

bryce said:
Ulysses - you are the ultimate apologist! I swear, if the F707
disintegrated in ones fingers spewing flesh eating acid that
consumed two fingers on each hand, you'd tell folks to calm down,
and THANK Sony for not making a camera that consumed three fingers
on each hand. And what did you really use those other two fingers
for anyway?

)

Seriously, we do need calm and serious evaluation. If we're having a problem, then we need to make sure we have our data solidly beneath us, and then we need to follow the protocol that we originally did with BFS: CALL IT IN TO SONY. And make them deal with it.

Of course, the other option is that if we don't have the patience or desire to fool with all of this, request a new Sony camera (no fix), or else go with a completely different non-Sony camera. If Sony kept sending me back a camera with problems, I'd consider that last route myself. After all, the Yankees are a great baseball team, but in the end, they struck out against the D-Backs.

If we do have a serious problem here, an ONGOING problem, then we need to let Sony know about it and not just complain here in the forum. Even if you have to go with another camera, your best service to those who remain is to calmly let Sony know your problem, paving the way for resolution for those that follow.

Ulysses · Nov 14, 2001

Ulysses said:
Member said:

and THANK Sony for not making a camera that consumed three fingers
on each hand

Click to expand...

And just for the record, I don't think ANYONE is thanking Sony for visiting this problem upon their images and their time. I certainly am not.

I've got a couple of my own gripes with the DA, some of them unrelated to issues discussed here.

At the same time, experience and a decent amount of history here helps me to see how to deal with Sony, what works and what doesn't. Since Sony is "the system" that we have to deal with here, we need to know how to address them to get our concerns taken care of.

That doesn't mean kissing them on the rear end; it means treating them fairly so that we get the same in return as consumers.

uh oh . . . "fixed" 707 has nightframed BFS

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