Epson R-D1s is out

Those of you who can read Japanese can find out what's new besides a RAW+JPEG mode and a quick-view button.

http://www.i-love-epson.co.jp/products/rd1s/

Prog.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0603/06031502epsonrd1s.asp

Prognathous said:

Those of you who can read Japanese can find out what's new besides
a RAW+JPEG mode and a quick-view button.

http://www.i-love-epson.co.jp/products/rd1s/

Prog.

Click to expand...

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

That is fanstastic! I want to have one!
--
http://www.photo.net/photos/Nachkebia

It looks like nothing's changed except the software, so I don't imagine it'll be more affordable (i.e. anywhere near affordable, for me!)

Well that's a relative thing. If indeed there have only been software upgrades, then maybe the few leftover RD-1 cameras may be knocked down even further to make that camera more affordable. When I bought mine some time ago they were going $2,700 in the U.S. and $2,500 in Germany, so it may be reasonable to expect a couple hundred knocked off those prices (that is, if there's any in stock).
--
'Nice pen, bet you write good stories with it.'

Jim144 said:

It looks like nothing's changed except the software, so I don't
imagine it'll be more affordable (i.e. anywhere near affordable,
for me!)

Click to expand...

Yup, it sounds like just a firmware update.

But I imagine there could be other changes inside. Epson designed RD-1 for one "limited edition" production run of 10,000 cameras. Now they're into year 3, selling more than 10,000 per year, so a bit of "design for manufacturability" seems in order.

There's also the very annoying issue of parts being discontinued, so you periodically have to redo parts of your hardware design just to produce the same product you were producing...

It's a pity, one very cool change would be if they used the version of the ICX413-AQ sensor used in the Nikon D70, with it's electronic shutter. Then they could give the RD-1 1/1000 sec x-sync and slow down the RD-1 mechanical shutter (less noise and vibration).

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Forty-one, fifteen, and five. Watch your back, Dallas!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Forty-nine and eleven, we're gonna stomp some Texan!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

At the price that thing goes for, and to satisfy Leica glass fans,

it needs more than the "6.1メガピクセル" which the specs say that it has

and a decent performing 3200 ISO, as well as excellent 1600, which it doesn't have

I agree. A digital rangefinder needs to have a full-frame 35mm sensor with outstanding sharpness, color, noise, dynamic range, etc.

Epson or Leica or, heck, Voigtlander should partner with Canon and build a digital rangefinder around the 5D sensor and processor. That would be a serious piece of equipment. Epson's attempt is more of a curiosity.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ckeach

Have you been following the digital rangefinder developments closely enough to know the challenges of illuminating a full-frame sensor with current rangefinder lenses?
--
Kind regards
Kjetil

bee1000 said:

Epson or Leica or, heck, Voigtlander should partner with Canon and
build a digital rangefinder around the 5D sensor and processor.

Click to expand...

Actually, they would need the 1Ds-MKII sensor, as the 5D sensor doesn't have offset microlenses (which are very important for this kind of camera). Search this forum for "angle of incidence" for more.

Prog.

triple_kaizer said:

Have you been following the digital rangefinder developments
closely enough to know the challenges of illuminating a full-frame
sensor with current rangefinder lenses?
--

Click to expand...

I know nothing of this but can you tell me how the challenges differ from illuminating a full-frame sensor with existing SLR lenses?

As both rangefinder and SLR lenses were designed to illuminate a full 35mm frame won't they perform the same on a 35mm sized sensor?

Dave

DougJGreen said:

At the price that thing goes for, and to satisfy Leica glass fans,

it needs more than the
"6.1メガピクセル" which the
specs say that it has
and a decent performing 3200 ISO, as well as excellent 1600, which
it doesn't have

Click to expand...

You can probaably say the same thing about the Panasonic L1 which only has an extra 1.5 mp.

I am not sure high ISO is that important to the target market. More mp would be nice, like the Sony R1 or Nikon D200 but it gives a digital "home" for rangefinder Leica glass.

I think this plus come Lecia glass is more or a Leica type package than the Panny and its zoom.

Pity it is not full frame.

Dave

triple_kaizer said:

Have you been following the digital rangefinder developments
closely enough to know the challenges of illuminating a full-frame
sensor with current rangefinder lenses?
--
Kind regards
Kjetil

Click to expand...

I have not been (mostly because I'll never be able to afford one!), but that must go a long way toward explaining why we haven't seen one. Thanks

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ckeach

Dave Oddie said:

triple_kaizer said:

Have you been following the digital rangefinder developments
closely enough to know the challenges of illuminating a full-frame
sensor with current rangefinder lenses?
--

Click to expand...

I know nothing of this but can you tell me how the challenges
differ from illuminating a full-frame sensor with existing SLR
lenses?

As both rangefinder and SLR lenses were designed to illuminate a
full 35mm frame won't they perform the same on a 35mm sized sensor?

Click to expand...

Because there's no swinging mirror, rangefinder lenses can approach very close to the film (or sensor). Some almost touch the shutter, coming within 4-5mm of the sensor. This means wide angle lenses like a 35mm, 28, 24, or 19mm can be symmetrical, which makes correcting many kinds of aberrations easy, and makes the lenses relatively cheap and low cost.

Because of the mirror, the rear element of an SLR lens can't approach any closer than 38mm from the sensor. So those wide angles lenses are asymmetrical, using what are called "retrofocus" designs, like telephoto lenses, in reverse so the negative elements are to the front, the positive elements face the sensor.

Retrofocus lenses for SLRs have exit pupils at least 50mm from the sensor. The exit pupil is the "image" of the aperture, and is the place where light "comes from" before it hits the sensor. With a 50mm exit pupil, a lens won't have light that's more than arctan(43.3mm/2/50mm) = 23.4 degrees from perpendicular to the sensor. This is a bit much for many sensor designs to cope with (look at the corner problems with Canon 5D) and is just on the edge of acceptable.

Rangefinder lenses have exit pupils at the same distance as their focal length from the sensor. So a 35mm rangefinder lens has a 35mm exit pupil, and the angle on full frame is arctan(43.3mm/2/35mm) = 31.7 degrees from perpendicular. That lens would work worse than the worst of the "problem lenses" on 5D. It's even worse for wider lenses, a 28mm (very popular for rangefinders) is 37.7 deg from perpendicular, it's pretty much not going to work. A 19mm is 48.7 degrees, forget about it, and forget the 12mm Helier.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Forty-one, fifteen, and five. Watch your back, Dallas!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Forty-nine and eleven, we're gonna stomp some Texan!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Now they're into year 3, selling more than 10,000 per year, so a
bit of "design for manufacturability" seems in order.

Click to expand...

From what I've heard @ rangefinderforum, epson didn't even sold half of the 10.000 units and it seems this "uptade" (if you can even call it that) is their way of trying to sell the remaining stock.

Even though it seems to exist a niche market to this kind of camera (lots of people waiting to the digital m, like myself), imho demand for this camera is as low as it gets (very expensive, poor support, lots of quality control issues, based on the very cheap bessa cameras) and its a pitty Epson miss this oportunity for a more substancial update, like improving the rangefinder base.

--
Regards,

António

2.000 US and EUR.

The RD-1 its already for 2.200€ @ shphoto.de. I suspect it will go for 1.800€ in a month or so.

--
Regards,

António

I own one of these and it needs more than a firmware upgrade.

--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida
D Two X and a spare.
Leica D-LUX Two

Dave Oddie said:

I am not sure high ISO is that important to the target market.
More mp would be nice, like the Sony R1 or Nikon D200 but it gives
a digital "home" for rangefinder Leica glass.

Click to expand...

Actually, given the 1.5x FOV, high ISO ends up being fairly important to anyone who wants to shoot available light wide-angle shots. Since the 20/25mm (30/38sih mm on the R-D1) lenses available range from f/2.8-4 and the 12/15mm (18/23ish mm on the R-D1) range from f/4.5-5.6, end up shooting at 800 or 1600 a lot more than you would like.

that having been said, I think the epson sensor does a nice job with these speeds. Especially for black & white. But that may just be personal preference.

Greg Gebhardt said:

I own one of these and it needs more than a firmware upgrade.

--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida
D Two X and a spare.
Leica D-LUX Two

Click to expand...

Please provide more details!!!!

--
Chris

how a budget SLR camera body made by Cosina can be re-badged and have a CCD dumped in it and it becomes more expensive than better made DSLRs like a canon 350, nikon d70, olympus e300 etc.

Even as a voigtlander film body the body sells approx $US 300-400, how does an common old APS sensor boost it into the luxury price range??

Don't get me wrong - I'd actually love to have a digital rangefinder, but this sort of price-scalping is hindering photography rather than helping it.
--
Cameras are NOT computers!
Olympus E1 with 14-45, Nikon Coolpix 5400, Fuji Finepix A201