Sony and Konica Minolta: Waiting ’til Photokina?

Here is what I have learned after reading this forum. Sometimes you need to just step away for a while otherwise it will send you in to a panic. I'm somewhat invested as well, and the thought of having to go out and start over is not that appealing to me (especially when this time last year, I was debating between the 7D and the 20D). Enjoy the equipment you have, I know I enjoy shooting with what I have!

Yes, this sounds good to me too. I would bump up the EVF resolution from the A2 and try to increase its dynamic range too. Live histogram really rocks. The thought of trying to live without wireless flash is too horrible to bear. What you describe would also work wonderfully on my microscope since there is no mirror or shutter. I'd add video capture too.

EXX said:

I would prefer a camera with:

• DiMAGE A2 High res tiltable EVF
• KM A-mount interchangable lens system
• Sony R1 10 MP sensor
• KM wireless flash system

over the more traditional DSLR with OVF. So more or less my current
DiMAGE A2 with a better sensor and interchangable lenses.

That way you can make pictures withut making noise and the cam is
WYSIWYG because of the live preview. The live histogram makes it
even better.

Click to expand...

--
Steve W

Then the money I've been saving for a 9D and SSM lenses will not go to Sony. A dumbed-down camera where I'm constantly having to take my eyes off the viewfinder to make an adjustment has no appeal.

I'll use my money to buy used 7Ds and old Minolta lenses instead.

--
Fiat lux.

I read the article before, but like any article like that, it is third or fourth hand information, including language translation.

We are taking Jason Schneider's interpretation of all of this, trying to analyzing an interview published in PEN Weekly, an excellent Japanese online magazine, with Yakuta Nakagawa, executive vice president of Sony, the man in charge of the DSLR project. Not the best article to rely on because it is not direct.

To me, some of Schneider's analyzing was hard to swallow, at least in the format presented.

Maybe some of his interpretation may prove to be be more accurate than I think, but based on other information available online, I come to somewhat different conclusions.

It really doesn't matter how any of us interpret all this information now, because very soon we will all know the facts directly from Sony.

... that they also make pro video equipment. Sure, that equipment costs more than a medium sized car, but still.

True, they tend to make things their own way, probably to be able to patent them, but they have bought into the Minolta system, and there's no logic in buying something ready-made, and then using something home-made. They hardly need Minolta to invent the lens mount for them, but they now have access to AS, and I hope they'll make the most of it, even in a financial sense, but particularly in a practical sense. I hope they're just being modest about their plans for the pro market.

They will after all market segment. There will be a idot proof entry level dSLR using junk that we don't like such as EVF, etc, and there will be 7D replacement as well. For 9D I think we need to wait a little longer. Or they may decide top-bottom strategy and introduce 9D and 5D-replacement this summer.

Scotty7D said:

One of the endearing qualities of the 7D is the mature control
system layout..if I wanted to look endlessly through menus I would
have bought a Canikon. I have the sinking feeling that the Sony
DSLR will be consumer level gaga with idiot scene modes and little
pretty icons with explanations of what a landscape picture is. If
they do they can keep it.

Click to expand...

David Kilpatrick said:

I said from the start that the 7D would be on the way out and the
5D would be the first candidate for rebranding, simply because it
is so much simpler to build. The knobs and stuff may only be
switches but they are labour-intensive (skilled or otherwise) to
build and they are vulnerable points, subject to QC issues,
failure, repairs, etc.

Click to expand...

I have the advantage of having the parts manual for the 7D. Those knobs and such like could be built by automated machines, they are relatively simple. Definitely so compared to the core unit with it's shutter, mirror assembly, anti shake and main sensor, AF motor unit, aperture motor unit. The knobs and so on are essentially identical in design to similar ones found on Sony P&S so would not raise a eyebrow with that executive. That core unit might as well be built by another race of aliens by comparison. Layer after layer of mechanics that all have to be precisely aligned. That definitely will not be familiar with mr P&S executive. I'm certain that's what he's reacting to.

I don't remember anybody having problems with QC issues with the knobs and switches. But lots of problems with alignment of the core unit.

If sony makes a duplicate of the user interface of the C & N cameras, just how many will buy it? Under those circumstances if I was buying a new system I'd not be going with a untried company. Sony won't distinguish themselves with a look alike camera, even if they think so.

I agree, there is little chance that they will get it as right as the 7D.

Walt

Well, since KM will cease selling camera next month is there any problem (legally) to share this document? I think most will appreciate it especially with adjusting AF part section.

The problem with those knobs and dial is if Sony wants to make the camera weatherproof. It will add a bit problem the more dial you have.

WaltKnapp said:

I have the advantage of having the parts manual for the 7D.

Click to expand...

Just reading this looks like the traditional look of knobs/dials Minolta camera will soon be history. Also, I think Canon should send a Sony a thank you note for not going after the higher-margined professional DSLR gear market. Just as others have said, maybe Sony does not realize that a lot of Canon L lenses, 5D/1D/1Ds series owners are enthusiastic amateurs.

José

iammobay said:

Check out this link. Sorry in advance if this has been previously
posted.

http://photoreporter.com/article.asp?issueID=57&num=5&vol=14&articleType=fc&articleID=631

Sony and Konica Minolta: Waiting ’til Photokina?
Those anticipating quick results from the Sony-Konica Minolta
connection—or at least some kind of definitive product
announcement—will simply have to have patience. Nothing specific is
slated to be revealed before this summer, but, we were able to
glean some fascinating insights from an interview published in PEN
Weekly, an excellent Japanese online magazine produced under the
auspices of the Japan PhotoImaging Enterprises Association (JPEA).
In analyzing the comments made by Yakuta Nakagawa, executive vice
president of Sony, the man in charge of the DSLR project, it is
clear that any new Sony DSLR incorporating KM technology is going
to be conceptually different from the DSLRs presently out, which
Nakagawa characterizes as outdated and too dependent “on the
craftsmanship of experienced workers—a world that will soon cease
to exist.” He also “was amazed to see that the DSLR is still
fundamen-tally mechanical” and feels the design must become more
electronic “or we would be no match for powerful rivals like Canon
and Nikon.”

Nakagawa said, “We are not interested in the niche world of
professionals,” and that Sony plans to introduce cameras aimed at a
DSLR mass market. He also believes there will be a continuing
market for high-caliber reflex-viewing EVF cameras, like Sony’s
formidable R1.

As for the DSLRs’ lenses, don’t assume, as many analysts have, that
they will be made by Konica Minolta. Oh, there will be Sony-branded
DSLR lenses, and conceivably, some could even sport the illustrious
name of Carl Zeiss, as the lenses on a number of Sony digital
cameras already do.

Click to expand...

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I really hope you're right. I can't believe Sony would go through the trouble of buying the KM assets to just start from scratch. It could be that eliminating the mechanical stuff is a long term goal. I'm holding tight until an official announcement of some sort. Mean time, I figure at current prices I'll need another $1200 or so to duplicate my kit with a D200 after dumping my 7d. That's just about how much I would've spent on a new Sony if this thing falls apart. Either way, I'll have a good camera. I really hope Sony doesn't screw this up!
--
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The mount it the most valuable thing there.

If you decided to start your own camera brand today. You have a couple options.

1) Use some old school mount (M42), which isn't a good option for being modern.

2) Licenses someone elses, such as nikon or canon. This isn't good either. it makes you look like a knock off, and makes you largely dependent on that brand, plus they probably won't grant you the rights to it anyways thus electronics will have to be reverse engineered, and thus you end up with sigma lenses which are a hack, and not officially designed to work on the minolta mount. In general, using someone elses isn't so fun.

3) Create your own. This is extremely hard, since you have no lens install base out there, you have to deliver a whole new mount and get people to buy into it. This is never appealing. Sigma failed with their cameras because of this. 4/3rds has had a slow go. KM and Canon paid heavily for breaking their MF mounts, but in the end it worked out ok for canon since people accepted the change as progress, but on the flip side it started the death roll of KM since minolta users switched to Canon or Nikon since they had to do a Do-Over. So this is just not a very good option.

4) Join a "standard" made by wanna be companies. This is 4/3rds and means you have to accept any faults of that mount. Also mean you can't have vendor lock in to hold customers.

So this means you go to option 5)

Buy a existing mount. This is what Sony has done. They found the 3rd most popular mount and one of the most modern. Only Canon and 4/3rds have more modern mounts. KM was barely using it, there is a huge user base using it, and lots of lenses and such allready out there. So sign up for it, and take it over. Now you have a mount with history behind it and its easy to get people to buy into it.

There really was no other option for them if they want to be serious. They never would have got a brand new mount of the ground. 4/3rds isn't an option for anyone who wants to make serious cameras. And no way could you license or get anywhere using Nikon of Canons mount (look how well Fuji and Kodak did with that path).

Most of the camera is meaningless and all gets replaced in a generation or 2 anyways. But mounts last.

Its no different then buying a old car brand name with a historical name and bringing it back to life and leveraging that history even if the new company has nothing to do with it.

hanugro said:

Well, since KM will cease selling camera next month is there any
problem (legally) to share this document? I think most will
appreciate it especially with adjusting AF part section.
The problem with those knobs and dial is if Sony wants to make the
camera weatherproof. It will add a bit problem the more dial you
have.

Click to expand...

The parts manual is being sold in PDF format on ebay, I saw another copy go by in my search tonight, price is up from what I paid. The copy I got has all parts changes through Dec. 27, 2005. It is not the shop manual, only has all part numbers and the part breakdown drawings and some of the circuit diagrams. Could certainly be used to help in disassembling the camera and so on. And, if Sony incorporates the parts in their online parts system parts could be ordered. You need the parts numbers to order in the Sony system. But no calibration setups are given, and no instructions.

The shop manual for the 7D was scheduled to be released in mid April (according to minolta parts department when I talked to them last week). Of course it won't see the light of day unless Sony releases it now. I've been watching everywhere I can in case someone offers one. The calibration and adjustment would be in that shop manual.

Making a interchangable lens camera weatherproof involves a huge amount more than just those knobs and dials. Take a look at the Nikonos cameras for how it's done. Not a issue for me, I have silnylon covers for the camera and lens that could probably protect it in a downpour and still allow shooting. And I don't have to worry about seal maintenence or failure.

Walt

I think they confuses themselves (again) from the beginning...

Sounds like they are trying to pick up that SONY innovative spirit again... At least I can't easily tell from the article that SONY starts the project from the existing (minolta users) targeted customer's (upgraders and potential swticher's) real needs...

Hope that I am wrong...

Anybody here that has followed this publication for a longer time to get their "flavour"?

I must admit - by reading their other PMA related articles - that they have a nice style of being kindly aggressive in their conclusions - which they clearly identify as "theirs". But I could not figure if they are bashing somebody more than others.

Any insight appreciated. In the meantime I continue to learn my 5D - KM that is...
--
Still no affordable beamer with slide film resolution, but now I am sold....

Ralf

Here's hoping for the electronic optical lens that is on the horizon. It changes the path length of the optical rays just like an old fashioned glass lens, but does it via electronic signal across something like an LCD.

BTW, an LCD monitor works that way by changing the phase (polarization) of the light.

It's going to be a fight to see who has the best patents. Sony or some small start-up in Silicon Valley, San Antonio, North Carolina, or Huntsville (Alabama). OK, maybe Boston!

Camera technology is just started folks. Its going to be neat in a few years.
--
Rick

Well, since they have stop producing the camera and Sony did not buy the right for 7D, how long does it take for product service manual to be considered as public domain? I am just curious since I can't find someone willing to sell it, how much exactly did you pay. Could you direct me to the website that sell this kind of stuff? Thanks!

WaltKnapp said:

The shop manual for the 7D was scheduled to be released in mid
April (according to minolta parts department when I talked to them
last week). Of course it won't see the light of day unless Sony
releases it now. I've been watching everywhere I can in case
someone offers one. The calibration and adjustment would be in that
shop manual.

Click to expand...

One of the weaknesses of digital computers is that they cannot process a lot of data simultaneousy. Data has to be streamed through a processor in 32 or 64 bit pieces of data. Despite enormous clock speeds there are still delays in processing full colour, high definition images. Conventional lenses do their job effortlessly and computers help design better lenses. Eventually the electronics world will catch up but for the present the optical viewfinders are much preferable.
--
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http://www.pbase.com/dhaslam/galleries

--
Cheers
Peter

All about A1/A2: http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq
my stuff: http://www.pbase.com/pmthor/

PhotoTraveler said:

The mount it the most valuable thing there.

3) Create your own. This is extremely hard, since you have no lens
install base out there, you have to deliver a whole new mount and
get people to buy into it. This is never appealing. Sigma failed
with their cameras because of this.

Click to expand...

I don't think Sigma is faring worse than Fuji or Kodak, and Fuji tries to make money buying and selling old Nikon bodies, while Kodak does the same with both Nikon and Sigma bodies (albeit with Canon mount).

PhotoTraveler said:

So this means you go to option 5)
Buy a existing mount. This is what Sony has done. They found the
3rd most popular mount and one of the most modern. Only Canon and
4/3rds have more modern mounts. KM was barely using it, there is a
huge user base using it, and lots of lenses and such allready out
there. So sign up for it, and take it over. Now you have a mount
with history behind it and its easy to get people to buy into it.

Click to expand...

Some of us are ready to choose another brand for our next camera. Sony can't rely on faithful Minolta owners to fill their pockets. They need to attract new customers as well. For the latter group, the mount is irrelevant, except for the fact that Sigma, Tamron and Tokina are already making lenses for it, which may be both good and bad. Good, because people like to have alternatives, bad because they are alternatives. Camera bodies are not what makes them money, lenses are.

PhotoTraveler said:

And no way could you license or get anywhere using Nikon
of Canons mount (look how well Fuji and Kodak did with that path).

Click to expand...

We aggree on that, although it does seem a bit strange that people won't put a Nikon lens on a "non-Nikon" body, but gladly put a non-Nikon lens on a Nikon body, while at the same time there's near-total aggreement that the lens is the most important of the two.

PhotoTraveler said:

Most of the camera is meaningless and all gets replaced in a
generation or 2 anyways. But mounts last.

Click to expand...

The flash shoe also lasts (although, like the lens mount, it may be replaced if deemed necessary). Minolta also retained the same viewfinder accessories for decades (angle finder, correction lenses etc.).

PhotoTraveler said:

Its no different then buying a old car brand name with a historical
name and bringing it back to life and leveraging that history even
if the new company has nothing to do with it.

Click to expand...

Now, that's pathetic (but, yes, it does occur).

I agree.

This is not the "same read" on the PEN Weekly article that was reported in other sites.

I think something got lost in the translation (and I'm being "nice" about it).

--
JimC
------
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