Battery Life...???

Bill Schroeder · Nov 11, 2001

Just a thought... from a techie guy...

As I read these forums, and from my own experiences, it seems that almost all of the battery consumption complaints and problems exist with cameras that are long on features (higher pixel count, power zoom, large built-in buffers, etc) and use TWO and not FOUR batteries...

With FOUR NiMh batteries, like in my Casio QV-4000, we start out with a freshly charged set providing 4.8 to 5.2 volts to the camera... The camera design can easily be made to function on as little as 2.6 to 3.3 volts before it would shut down... thus using up 90+ percent of the power available in the NiMh batteries... with only .7 - .75 volts left at each cell... (per the nominal discharge charcteristics of these cells)...

With TWO NiMh batteries, like in my Fuji 4700 Zoom, we start out with only 2.4 to 2.6 volts to power the camera, when we put in a freshly charged set... Designing a camera that can work below 2 volts (with a flash memory card that requires 3 or 3.3 volts) is really difficult... they have to assure proper voltage to the CCD and the flash memory card, and when you are having to use voltage multipliers to accomplish this there are many problems...

Remember it is much easier and more energy efficient to regulate DC voltage down to whatever level you need than it is to raise a DC voltage to what you need... (Note: Flash memory cards require the following voltages: SD/MMC 2.7 to 3.6 volts... CF 3.3 or 5 volts... SM 3.3 volts)

I believe this is the real problem... I did a simple test...

1> I fully charged 4 sets of 4 batteries, 4 brands... 1300, 1600 & 1700 mha...

2> In pairs I placed them in my Fuji 4700, turned it on in capture ready mode with LCD on and let it run until it shut itself down due to battery discharge...

3> Waited 10 minutes and turned the 4700 on again, it would run for 7-10 more minutes and then shut itself down again...

4> Now with all 16 batteries, "discharged" as above, and unusable in the two battery (2.4 volt) camera, I place each of the 4 sets of 4 into my Casio QV-4000...

5> The 4 "dead to my 4700" sets of batteries ran my QV-4000, in full capture mode as follows: 1300mah set - 21 minutes... 2-1600mah sets 41 and 47 minutes... 1800mah set 75 minutes...

I REST MY CASE...

Bottom Line... Buy a camera that uses 4 batteries...

Rolf K · Nov 11, 2001

Bill Schroeder said:
Just a thought... from a techie guy...

As I read these forums, and from my own experiences, it seems that
almost all of the battery consumption complaints and problems exist
with cameras that are long on features (higher pixel count, power
zoom, large built-in buffers, etc) and use TWO and not FOUR
batteries...

With FOUR NiMh batteries, like in my Casio QV-4000, we start out
with a freshly charged set providing 4.8 to 5.2 volts to the
camera... The camera design can easily be made to function on as
little as 2.6 to 3.3 volts before it would shut down... thus using
up 90+ percent of the power available in the NiMh batteries... with
only .7 - .75 volts left at each cell... (per the nominal discharge
charcteristics of these cells)...

With TWO NiMh batteries, like in my Fuji 4700 Zoom, we start out
with only 2.4 to 2.6 volts to power the camera, when we put in a
freshly charged set... Designing a camera that can work below 2
volts (with a flash memory card that requires 3 or 3.3 volts) is
really difficult... they have to assure proper voltage to the CCD
and the flash memory card, and when you are having to use voltage
multipliers to accomplish this there are many problems...

Remember it is much easier and more energy efficient to regulate DC
voltage down to whatever level you need than it is to raise a DC
voltage to what you need... (Note: Flash memory cards require the
following voltages: SD/MMC 2.7 to 3.6 volts... CF 3.3 or 5 volts...
SM 3.3 volts)

I believe this is the real problem... I did a simple test...

1> I fully charged 4 sets of 4 batteries, 4 brands... 1300, 1600 &
1700 mha...

2> In pairs I placed them in my Fuji 4700, turned it on in capture
ready mode with LCD on and let it run until it shut itself down due
to battery discharge...

3> Waited 10 minutes and turned the 4700 on again, it would run for
7-10 more minutes and then shut itself down again...

4> Now with all 16 batteries, "discharged" as above, and unusable
in the two battery (2.4 volt) camera, I place each of the 4 sets of
4 into my Casio QV-4000...

5> The 4 "dead to my 4700" sets of batteries ran my QV-4000, in
full capture mode as follows: 1300mah set - 21 minutes... 2-1600mah
sets 41 and 47 minutes... 1800mah set 75 minutes...

I REST MY CASE...

Bottom Line... Buy a camera that uses 4 batteries...

Very good experiment! I have maintained all along that AA batteries were the way to go (economics). Did not know that the magic figure was four.

Now I have even more reason to love my QV-3000, hopefully soon to be a QV-4000. But the rapid introduction of new and better models all the time, who can ever be sure.

But one thing is sure it will have four AA's and a CF unless some drastic reduction in power consumption takes place in the new models, not yet on the market.

Rolf K · Nov 11, 2001

Rolf K said:
Bill Schroeder said:

Just a thought... from a techie guy...

As I read these forums, and from my own experiences, it seems that
almost all of the battery consumption complaints and problems exist
with cameras that are long on features (higher pixel count, power
zoom, large built-in buffers, etc) and use TWO and not FOUR
batteries...

With FOUR NiMh batteries, like in my Casio QV-4000, we start out
with a freshly charged set providing 4.8 to 5.2 volts to the
camera... The camera design can easily be made to function on as
little as 2.6 to 3.3 volts before it would shut down... thus using
up 90+ percent of the power available in the NiMh batteries... with
only .7 - .75 volts left at each cell... (per the nominal discharge
charcteristics of these cells)...

With TWO NiMh batteries, like in my Fuji 4700 Zoom, we start out
with only 2.4 to 2.6 volts to power the camera, when we put in a
freshly charged set... Designing a camera that can work below 2
volts (with a flash memory card that requires 3 or 3.3 volts) is
really difficult... they have to assure proper voltage to the CCD
and the flash memory card, and when you are having to use voltage
multipliers to accomplish this there are many problems...

Remember it is much easier and more energy efficient to regulate DC
voltage down to whatever level you need than it is to raise a DC
voltage to what you need... (Note: Flash memory cards require the
following voltages: SD/MMC 2.7 to 3.6 volts... CF 3.3 or 5 volts...
SM 3.3 volts)

I believe this is the real problem... I did a simple test...

1> I fully charged 4 sets of 4 batteries, 4 brands... 1300, 1600 &
1700 mha...

2> In pairs I placed them in my Fuji 4700, turned it on in capture
ready mode with LCD on and let it run until it shut itself down due
to battery discharge...

3> Waited 10 minutes and turned the 4700 on again, it would run for
7-10 more minutes and then shut itself down again...

4> Now with all 16 batteries, "discharged" as above, and unusable
in the two battery (2.4 volt) camera, I place each of the 4 sets of
4 into my Casio QV-4000...

5> The 4 "dead to my 4700" sets of batteries ran my QV-4000, in
full capture mode as follows: 1300mah set - 21 minutes... 2-1600mah
sets 41 and 47 minutes... 1800mah set 75 minutes...

I REST MY CASE...

Bottom Line... Buy a camera that uses 4 batteries...

Click to expand...

Very good experiment! I have maintained all along that AA batteries
were the way to go (economics). Did not know that the magic figure
was four.

Now I have even more reason to love my QV-3000, hopefully soon to
be a QV-4000. But the rapid introduction of new and better models
all the time, who can ever be sure.

But one thing is sure it will have four AA's and a CF unless some
drastic reduction in power consumption takes place in the new
models, not yet on the market.

Let me add this in case you missed my other post.
How to keep the spare AA in place.

Radio Shack sells a 4 AA battery holder for $1.69! Just cut the leads off and place some tape over the exposed terminals on the two ends. Tape two of them back to back with double sided tape and you have a neat holder for 8 AA's. The part # 270-391A. I have picture if you need it.

Bill Schroeder · Nov 11, 2001

I have been doing this for years... BUT I use RS part # 270-387B which holds 8 AA cells...

I just drill out the male connector on the 9v style connection and I am ready to use it... (it is like a small rivet and drills out with a 1/8 inch drill bit)

I put my cells in with the positive UP (towards the connector side) when they are charged... and positive the other way (down) when dead...

Rolf K said:
Let me add this in case you missed my other post.
How to keep the spare AA in place.

Radio Shack sells a 4 AA battery holder for $1.69! Just cut the
leads off and place some tape over the exposed terminals on the two
ends. Tape two of them back to back with double sided tape and you
have a neat holder for 8 AA's. The part # 270-391A. I have picture
if you need it.

Rolf K · Nov 11, 2001

Bill Schroeder said:
I just drill out the male connector on the 9v style connection and
I am ready to use it... (it is like a small rivet and drills out
with a 1/8 inch drill bit)

I put my cells in with the positive UP (towards the connector side)
when they are charged... and positive the other way (down) when
dead...

Rolf K said:

Let me add this in case you missed my other post.
How to keep the spare AA in place.

Radio Shack sells a 4 AA battery holder for $1.69! Just cut the
leads off and place some tape over the exposed terminals on the two
ends. Tape two of them back to back with double sided tape and you
have a neat holder for 8 AA's. The part # 270-391A. I have picture
if you need it.

Click to expand...

Must be lots of other nice "tricks" out there among this forums participants.
Maybe we should try to get Phil to make a separate section all for them.

Andrew Gregory · Nov 12, 2001

I don't really like to take the wind out of anybody's sails, but (you could feel that 'but' coming, couldn't you

You can sum the post up as "four batteries last longer than two". Which is really sort of obvious.

There are a few technical issues mentioned in the previous posting. One was that "it is easier to regulate down than up". This is true, however in practice it is more complicated than that.

Simple linear regulators are designed to "regulate down". However they are terribly inefficient, losing a significant amount of power as heat. Much more efficient (80-90%) are switch-mode power supplies, and virtually every computer related device that runs off batteries will use them. This includes camera, PDAs, MP3 players, etc. The power supply in every PC is switch-mode, and lots of 'wall-warts' are becoming switch-mode too.

Switch-mode power supplies can be designed to "regulate up" as easily as "regulate down", although few do both.

In any case, the spirit of the original posting is correct: a camera that accepts more batteries is likely to last longer before they need changing. AAs are cheaper and more flexible than proprietary batteries, but a set probably won't last as long between charges. The Radio Shack batteries holders mentioned in later posts sound like a good idea, but so far elastic bands and ziplock plastic bags have worked fine for me.

Regards,
Andrew

Bob Sciamanda · Nov 12, 2001

I have found that screw top plastic bottles for prescriptions, vitamins, etc can be found of just the right size to house 4 AA's snuggly - keeping them parallel and out of possible electrical contact with each other.
Bob

Bill Schroeder said:
. . .
I put my cells in with the positive UP (towards the connector side)
when they are charged... and positive the other way (down) when
dead...

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Battery Life...???

Bill Schroeder

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